Am I on satan's side by default?

[AlAyeti]

Thankyou Bro Sam, can you please give me the book, chapter, verse of this quote?

Originally Posted by Bro_Sam : All of us, apart from Christ, are with Satan. That's why Jesus said, "you are of your father, the Devil".

That theological position does not hold up under examination. John's (John the baptist) father was a righteous man. Actualy a righteous cohen of Israel. Jesus referred to John as quite the righteous guy as well.

Jesus was directing a insult at the replacement Pharisees set up in those positions by King Herod. The Gospels are REAL history.

What is an NT position of "Satan", I wonder?

Manipulating scripture and leading people astray would be dead-on places to see the position well put.

Also, I see what you call condoned violence vs. illegal violence and how they are separated in scripture. I call this this common law and don't nessesarely equate this with scripture.

Render to the secular world what is the secular world's and render to God what is God's. Jesus is God and violence is a very rare thing in His way of life.

You know. this whole Christian thing is really not that tough to figure out BUT one must apply themself to the task of reality.

 

[KingZzub]

I have come across the line: "if you're not with jesus then you are, by default, with satan", but I'd like to imagine that most christians would consider this statement a little immature, or thoughtless.
Is it correct in your eyes for all atheists to belong with satan?
Why/why not?

The statement stands. You were born into sin and you need to be born again.

 

[undoing]

The statement stands. You were born into sin and you need to be born again.

Let's say that I've decided against being saved. Are you able to get along with me anyway, am I now a part of the abhorrent "Satan"??

 

[KingZzub]

No problems with being a friend of sinners, Undoing. I have friends who are Muslims, Hindus, atheists, philosophers, even active satanists.

What do you want to get along over? How can I show friendship to you?

 

[undoing]

Just treat me as an equal, behave like a friend.
I respect your point of view, I care what you think, and how you feel and I attempt to accomodate you there. You don't need to measure up to any specific expectation, you just need to be there as any friend would try to be. It is what I perceive more than what you actually do.

 

[AlAyeti]

Let's say that I've decided against being saved. Are you able to get along with me anyway, am I now a part of the abhorrent "Satan"??

What's it say in the New Testament on that very topic?

We get along to a point.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To undoing,

I do so to understand your understanding, and by adopting a stance which I expect you to adhere to, I also expect that position to be fundamental to your personal position of what "God" says and subsequently, what you believe is beyond disrepute.

If you do so to understand then you can’t really ask ‘why’, why simply means you don’t believe it.
I don’t have a personal position of what God says, what God says through His Biblical testimony is the same shared position I have with all who believe God’s testimony.

I'd love nothing more than to just say I love "God" with all my heart. I know once that happens, I'm 1) lying to myself; 2) lying to others; 3) relinquishing intellectual honesty, in all its forms; 4) making a commitment that will result in much loss of learning, living, and personal freedom; the list goes on.

I know believe you me I know because that’s almost exactly what I said before God touched my life.

 

[KingZzub]

Just treat me as an equal, behave like a friend.
I respect your point of view, I care what you think, and how you feel and I attempt to accomodate you there. You don't need to measure up to any specific expectation, you just need to be there as any friend would try to be. It is what I perceive more than what you actually do.

You have given a great answer. I really like it. Obviously we are not next-door neighbours or know each other, but if you ever need anything let me know!

 

[undoing]

To undoing,


If you do so to understand then you can’t really ask ‘why’, why simply means you don’t believe it.

Ok, but I don't see how cutting out any of the questioning power is going to help. Shouldn't all the hows, whys, when's, where's, who's, be asked?

I don’t have a personal position of what God says, what God says through His Biblical testimony is the same shared position I have with all who believe God’s testimony.

In other words you share your personal position with many others who follow the same religion. I wouldn't expect all believers to adhere to them in the same way/s though. Some would be more pronounced in different areas, and there's plenty of room in the bible for complete contradiction (as I would expect there to necessarily be).

I know believe you me I know because that’s almost exactly what I said before God touched my life.

They say that finding Jesus, God, etc opens ones life up to new possibilities, I can't escape the tree of knowledge, however. I can't ignore the developments of humanity and the lack of understanding so reflected in the bible.

You have given a great answer. I really like it. Obviously we are not next-door neighbours or know each other, but if you ever need anything let me know!

Thanks KingZzub, I'll try to add you to friends then, if I can't access the function, you're more than welcome to send a request to me (of course I will accept the offer). Take care.

 

[AlAyeti]

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Ok, but I don't see how cutting out any of the questioning power is going to help. Shouldn't all the hows, whys, when's, where's, who's, be asked?

"Test ALL things and hold firmly on to the truth."

In other words you share your personal position with many others who follow the same religion. I wouldn't expect all believers to adhere to them in the same way/s though. Some would be more pronounced in different areas, and there's plenty of room in the bible for complete contradiction (as I would expect there to necessarily be).

Christian life. The original free thinking movement.

They say that finding Jesus, God, etc opens ones life up to new possibilities, I can't escape the tree of knowledge, however. I can't ignore the developments of humanity and the lack of understanding so reflected in the bible.

How fascinating. I became a Christian precisely because of the way in which the Bible handles the development of humanity. Perfectly so.

Thanks KingZzub, I'll try to add you to friends then, if I can't access the function, you're more than welcome to send a request to me (of course I will accept the offer). Take care.

It's nice to see people make friends.

 

[undoing]

"Test ALL things and hold firmly on to the truth."

That's what I would have believed correct.

Christian life. The original free thinking movement.

Is the main freedom in you having whatever belief you want?

How fascinating. I became a Christian precisely because of the way in which the Bible handles the development of humanity. Perfectly so.

Hmm, I think it's more about culture and the way religion has shaped it.

It's nice to see people make friends.

I don't know how to take some of your posts, I don't like reading emotions into text because of the propensity for making serious errors. Could you please elaborate on how I sound like Jesus, etc; how nonconformity is synonymous with rebellion and how you find it nice to observe others making friends?

 

[Zebra1552]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has been moved from Christian Philosophy and Ethics (CPE). Be mindful of the forum specific guidelines (FSG's) in Exploring Christianity (EC), and have fun!

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[undoing]

"Test ALL things and hold firmly on to the truth."

I wouldn't say that the truth as we know it should be firmly held, in fact I believe it should be scrutinised regularly and with every method possible.

Christian life. The original free thinking movement.

I'm amused with the way you summise that living within the boundaries of Christianity includes 'original', 'free', 'thinking', and 'movement'.

How fascinating. I became a Christian precisely because of the way in which the Bible handles the development of humanity. Perfectly so.

IMHO religion and society are about consensus and ideology. You have many humanity principles spread across several accepted fields of study, many of which are at least more flexible and accomodating than rigid principles found in the bible's teachings.

It's nice to see people make friends.

I'm glad you have shared something personally touching

 

[ebia]

I have come across the line: "if you're not with jesus then you are, by default, with satan", but I'd like to imagine that most christians would consider this statement a little immature, or thoughtless.
Is it correct in your eyes for all atheists to belong with satan?
Why/why not?

Yes and no.

Ultimately either you get on board with God's project to put the world to rights and become part of it, or you don't and you remain part of the problem but not part of the solution. A situation which cannot run indefinitely.

 

[undoing]

Yes and no.

Ultimately either you get on board with God's project to put the world to rights and become part of it, or you don't and you remain part of the problem but not part of the solution. A situation which cannot run indefinitely.

I believe that I am a part of the solution. I believe the world would have less war and less injustice if the arguments of religious following were to be removed. I think conflict is something which actually contributes to the perpetuation of the perceived "crisis" and that problem is indeed the very conflict which I agree would be best to come to an end.

 

[ebia]

I believe that I am a part of the solution. I believe the world would have less war and less injustice if the arguments of religious following were to be removed. I think conflict is something which actually contributes to the perpetuation of the perceived "crisis" and that problem is indeed the very conflict which I agree would be best to come to an end.

You are entitled to believe whatever... But you asked what the Christian view was.

I will note, however, that the position you've just stated is just as much a faith position - one that has been asserted since the Enlightenment, but any pretence that there was any historical evidence to back it up was thoroughly blown away by the Twentieth Century.

The Judeo-Christian notion has been - from as early as the texts allow us to see, certainly from as early as Genesis 2/3 was written - that either you get on board with God's solution or you remain part of the problem only, since the problem itself entirely stems from thinking we can go it alone and ignore God's way of doing things. Thinking "I know what to do - I don't need to worry about God" is the ultimate source of everything that is wrong with the world.

 

[undoing]

You are entitled to believe whatever... But you asked what the Christian view was.

I will note, however, that the position you've just stated is just as much a faith position - one that has been asserted since the Enlightenment, but any pretence that there was any historical evidence to back it up was thoroughly blown away by the Twentieth Century.

In actuality the Enlightenment has strong residual effects which linger on today. It's causitive thinking which binds unknowing individuals. But that's to be expected from within any frame of reference.

The Judeo-Christian notion has been - from as early as the texts allow us to see, certainly from as early as Genesis 2/3 was written - that either you get on board with God's solution or you remain part of the problem only, since the problem itself entirely stems from thinking we can go it alone and ignore God's way of doing things. Thinking "I know what to do - I don't need to worry about God" is the ultimate source of everything that is wrong with the world.

And you don't see a problem with the way you're thinking/speaking?

 

[ebia]

And you don't see a problem with the way you're thinking/speaking?

If you want to discuss any particular perceived problems I'm happy to do so.

 

[undoing]

If you want to discuss any particular perceived problems I'm happy to do so.

Well, that's what I'm here for
I say you're pigeon holing me.

 

[I-can-see]

Doesn't "God" have everything considering it was supposedly "Him" who created everything?! Which obviously includes "Satan" and everything else. Why should some mere mortal such as myself be subject to "God's" wrath? What makes my disbelief such a crime? I'm being realistic.

I fail to see how non belief is rebellion, sorry. Rebellion is, to my understanding, a sort (or way) of working against another movement. This I am not doing, I am simply saying that I don't believe in the doctrine, nothing more. You may consider me neutral toward your belief and a single theist isn't going to change that.

God has created everything, so naturally disbelief in Him would cause Him to be angry. But, Christianity is not about Gods anger, but rather his mercy. Despite the pain we as humans have put Him through, he gives us chance after chance to come to him, to know him.

God is not simply capable of anger and wrath. Think about it this way, in Genises is says that God created man in his own image. The way we feel when we are rejected...He also feels. The way we feel when we are forgotten, He also feels. He is a passionate God, who wants a personal relationship with each and every one of us. However, the majority of people on this planet reject Him.

The reason that it is said that you are on Jesus side or against is because God has drawn the line. He has put the option on the table, drawn the line, made the purposal, given us a choice to make. One choice is this, we can accept that He exist, and that he wants a personal relationship with us. To do this we must simply allow His Son to intorduce us to Him, and thus we become part of his family. He looks after us as His children, and we look up to Him as our Father.

The second option is this. We can chose to reject Him, and thus we open ourself willingly to the anger He feels since He has been rejected by the very person he created to love. Then his wrath is upon you. But the choice is entirely yours to make, and once you make your choice then you have chosen the side that you are truely on.

Satan knows he will not, and can not win. So he hopes to take as many of Gods precious and loved creation down with him. To do so, he will do whatever he can to get any of us to reject Jesus, and thus reject the invitation to a personal relationship with the Creator. Basically, when you reject God's very existance, you reject Jesus since you do not believe in God in the first place. Therefor, you are unintentionally doing just what Satan want.

Does that mean you are evil? Not exactly. It just means you have been decieved. You still have the choice that you can make. Every breath you take is a chance that God gives you in His mercy to become part of the Family. That is how it goes.