Am I methodist?

[drone232]

Am I a methodist? I ask this because I have an Anglican friend who has been trying to convert me and some of what he says makes sense to me. I was raised a Baptist, but have always identified myself as simply protestant. I would like to know what specific denomination I fit into so I will now list all of my beliefs.
I belief in the Nicene Creed.
I belief in the Apostolic creed.
I belief in believers baptism.
I do not belief in the validity of infant baptism, but I do think it is a nice ritual and ceremony and would not mind a church that performs it.
I have no preference in how a person is baptized.
I belief in transubstantiation.
I do not belief in praying to the saints or the virgin Mary, but I do recognize their great significance.
I belief that scripture is the only true word of God and I know little of the apocrypha and thus have no opinion concerning it.
I belief in heaven and hell and am unsure of purgatory and limbo.
If you have any further questions or comments on my beliefs, please ask. Thank you in advance for any responses I receive and Merry Christmas.

 

[BryanW92]

.

 

[JCFantasy23]

You would fit in fine with Methodist circles with those beliefs - but really, with those beliefs, you would fit in well in several denominations. I'm curious why your friend is insisting about the Anglican, is it because he is Anglican and wants you to join him?

 

[drone232]

My friend is anglican and our discussions on theoligy and practice made me realize I'm not a Baptist despite attending a Baptist church. Now I just wish for a label.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

About the only thing you've listed that doesn't "jive" is believers baptism, and by no means is that sort of theology forbidden. For the sake of your edification, I'll very briefly explain our perspective.

Essentially, we believe Baptism to be solely and wholly and act of God, and that in Baptism we begin a journey of a Christian life. That can happen with an unbaptized adult convert or a child of a Christian home. It's important to note we don't baptize babies off the street. It's a clear requirement that the child have parents or sponsors (sponsors who have a genuine concern for and authority with that child, like a legal guardian) who are willing to undertake those baptismal covenants. Failing that, the child will make their own decision to be baptized later. All children eventually need to claim their own baptism and make a decision about faith for themselves, and that happens through Confirmation. We do not re baptize.

Transubstantiation is another place you'll find disagreement but not the kind of place anyone is gonna kick you out for. Transubstantiation is the belief that the bread and wine at the hands of the officiant literally transform into the literal body and blood of Christ. United Methodists don't believe that. Our belief is the doctrine of the real presence. Meaning that the presence of Jesus Christ is real and actually in those elements. But that, even though Christ is in those elements, they are still just bread and wine. However, unlike Baptists, we don't view them as mere symbols. If I believe in a literal transformation I would have a hard time in a church that didn't believe it was a sacrament and it was just a symbol of something that happened long ago, rather than a tangible thing that's happening right now.

I think you'd feel right at home in a UM congregation. I'm sure one would welcome you with open arms. And I believe you'd grow in faith. Don't think that those differences disqualify you.

A final parting note is the view of scripture. Like you, we believe scripture is authoritative. And, though it's pedantic it's important; the "word of God" is Jesus, not the Bible. The Boble is perhaps the "words of the people of God" or the "words from God". But Gods word is Jesus Christ. See John 1. We don't believe the scripture is inerrant or should be taken literally, but we do believe it's crucially important, can't be contradicted or circumvented and contains within its pages everything a person must know to be saved from sin.

Keep the questions coming!

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I have two follow-up questions/comments.

1) Why protestant? Not that I'm encouraging you to be otherwise; I'm just curious why you identify that way. "Protestant" is hopelessly broad. There are some Protestants who are very similar to Roman Catholics and some who are adamantly opposed to Catholicism and very much the opposite. I'm curious because it'll help me understand where you come from to learn why you identify as Protestant.

2) Maybe instead of thinking of a denomination you identify with, a place to start is to look at historic theologians and systems of thinking that might resonate with you. I, for example, identify as a Wesleyan. Being a United Methodist is part of that, because it's a connectional, Wesleyan denomination!

 

[GraceSeeker]

Am I a methodist? I ask this because I have an Anglican friend who has been trying to convert me and some of what he says makes sense to me. I was raised a Baptist, but have always identified myself as simply protestant. I would like to know what specific denomination I fit into so I will now list all of my beliefs.
I belief in the Nicene Creed.
I belief in the Apostolic creed.
I belief in believers baptism.
I do not belief in the validity of infant baptism, but I do think it is a nice ritual and ceremony and would not mind a church that performs it.
I have no preference in how a person is baptized.
I belief in transubstantiation.
I do not belief in praying to the saints or the virgin Mary, but I do recognize their great significance.
I belief that scripture is the only true word of God and I know little of the apocrypha and thus have no opinion concerning it.
I belief in heaven and hell and am unsure of purgatory and limbo.
If you have any further questions or comments on my beliefs, please ask. Thank you in advance for any responses I receive and Merry Christmas.

I would say, No, you are not a Methodist.


Methodists hold that the major actor in baptism is God himself. So, it isn't up to the person being baptized to make a statement of faith as one finds in believer's baptism. Rather, it is for the church to proclaim God's grace to the one being baptized. Anyone who puts the emphasis on the work of the person being baptized rather thant he work of God to make a baptism valid is NOT a Methodist. Therefore, since God, not man, is the prime actor and the person is a recipient rather than a mover of God's grace, we believe it is appropriate to baptize the infants of Christian parents who are intending to raise their child within the household of faith.

From our Articles of Faith, Article XVII--Of Baptism

Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference whereby Christians are distinguished from others that are not baptized; but it is also a sign of regeneration or the new birth. The Baptism of young children is to be retained in the Church.

Secondly Methodists have within a Articles of Faith a statement that runs exactly contrary to one of your beliefs. From the second paragraph of Article XVIII--Of the Lord's Supper:

Transubstantiation, or the change of the substance of bread and wine in the Supper of our Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ, but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a sacrament, and hath given occasion to many supersititions.

Curiously, we are so open that your differing from us on these two points would not preclude you from joining a Methodist congregation if you still wanted to. We aren't a confessional church and your belief in what is taught in the Apostles' and Nicene creeds is about all we really ask for.


Were it not for your views on baptism, I would say you sound incredibly close to Catholic. You might also want to check out the Greek Orthodox. (Hint: they don't pray *to* saints or the Virgin Mary either, but *through* them, asking these saints to pray to God for them and on their behalf.)

 

[AlexLL]

I would say, No, you are not a Methodist.


Methodists hold that the major actor in baptism is God himself. So, it isn't up to the person being baptized to make a statement of faith as one finds in believer's baptism. Rather, it is for the church to proclaim God's grace to the one being baptized. Anyone who puts the emphasis on the work of the person being baptized rather thant he work of God to make a baptism valid is NOT a Methodist. Therefore, since God, not man, is the prime actor and the person is a recipient rather than a mover of God's grace, we believe it is appropriate to baptize the infants of Christian parents who are intending to raise their child within the household of faith.

From our Articles of Faith, Article XVII--Of Baptism




Secondly Methodists have within a Articles of Faith a statement that runs exactly contrary to one of your beliefs. From the second paragraph of Article XVIII--Of the Lord's Supper:




Curiously, we are so open that your differing from us on these two points would not preclude you from joining a Methodist congregation if you still wanted to. We aren't a confessional church and your belief in what is taught in the Apostles' and Nicene creeds is about all we really ask for.


Were it not for your views on baptism, I would say you sound incredibly close to Catholic. You might also want to check out the Greek Orthodox. (Hint: they don't pray *to* saints or the Virgin Mary either, but *through* them, asking these saints to pray to God for them and on their behalf.)

I apologize if I am going off topic with asking this question, but is being born again for a Methodist being baptized? I have heard being born again used in the context of a conversion experience and I was always curious of the Methodist understanding.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I apologize if I am going off topic with asking this question, but is being born again for a Methodist being baptized? I have heard being born again used in the context of a conversion experience and I was always curious of the Methodist understanding.

Just to touch on this shortly; one thing that happens with a lot of circles that doesn't often happen with Methodists is the discussion about the moment one was saved or their conversion experience. Many Methodists can describe a conversion experience, John Wesley included (his was at Aldersgate; and it was AFTER he was Ordained a Priest!) However, we don't generally view salvation as a permanent one time thing. Whereas many traditions teach that when you pray a certain prayer you become permanently saved; we just don't really think it works that way. God isn't going to have his mind changed by your words; it's your heart that matters. So; yes, we believe in conversion experiences. But no, we don't think salvation comes from a conversion experience or even that everyone has one. Take a child who was baptized, later confirmed, and grew up in the church; do they need a 'conversion experience' to have a faith in Christ? Certainly, they might have one, but they might not. They might continue to grow in Christ because of the faith that the church and their family instilled in them. While in some circles, even a child raised in the faith might be pressured into feeling they have to have a "moment" in which they are saved. Perhaps one of the greatest differences in Methodists and many other Fundamentalist Protestants is that for them, salvation is something that happened. (I WAS saved at X date). For Methodist, Salvation is a lifelong journey, not a single event. I AM saved, and I'm continuing to work out my salvation with God. It's not something that happened once, but something that IS happening every moment of my mortal life. And so the conversation is a little different when you look at it that way.

We don't view Baptism as necessary for salvation. An unbaptized person certainly can be in heaven. But we do believe Baptism is real, and that something happens. We also believe that it's the duty of every Christian to be baptized; and that it is not optional. I know that sounds confusing, but that's because God is capable of operating outside of human constricts. A person who finally accepts God's grace and never has the opportunity to be Baptized will not be denied the kingdom of heaven. But for those who have that opportunity, there is simply no excuse to reject it. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure if that answered your question; but maybe that'll help steer the conversation at least.

 

[drone232]

Just to touch on this shortly; one thing that happens with a lot of circles that doesn't often happen with Methodists is the discussion about the moment one was saved or their conversion experience. Many Methodists can describe a conversion experience, John Wesley included (his was at Aldersgate; and it was AFTER he was Ordained a Priest!) However, we don't generally view salvation as a permanent one time thing. Whereas many traditions teach that when you pray a certain prayer you become permanently saved; we just don't really think it works that way. God isn't going to have his mind changed by your words; it's your heart that matters. So; yes, we believe in conversion experiences. But no, we don't think salvation comes from a conversion experience or even that everyone has one. Take a child who was baptized, later confirmed, and grew up in the church; do they need a 'conversion experience' to have a faith in Christ? Certainly, they might have one, but they might not. They might continue to grow in Christ because of the faith that the church and their family instilled in them. While in some circles, even a child raised in the faith might be pressured into feeling they have to have a "moment" in which they are saved. Perhaps one of the greatest differences in Methodists and many other Fundamentalist Protestants is that for them, salvation is something that happened. (I WAS saved at X date). For Methodist, Salvation is a lifelong journey, not a single event. I AM saved, and I'm continuing to work out my salvation with God. It's not something that happened once, but something that IS happening every moment of my mortal life. And so the conversation is a little different when you look at it that way.

We don't view Baptism as necessary for salvation. An unbaptized person certainly can be in heaven. But we do believe Baptism is real, and that something happens. We also believe that it's the duty of every Christian to be baptized; and that it is not optional. I know that sounds confusing, but that's because God is capable of operating outside of human constricts. A person who finally accepts God's grace and never has the opportunity to be Baptized will not be denied the kingdom of heaven. But for those who have that opportunity, there is simply no excuse to reject it. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure if that answered your question; but maybe that'll help steer the conversation at least.

A very well thought out statement, I agree with it very much. While I can point out a specific day in my life that I was saved, I also understand that my life has been a growing experience in Christ and in the knowledge of his doctrine since then. As for why I have classified myself as Protestant for most of my life, it is because I have for most of my life been unsure of my own specific beliefs and therefore chose a very generalist label for myself. In my research of different denominations I found Methodism to be the most agreeable so far and therefore I ask this question. I had originally been wanting to side with the Catholics and Anglicans, however, simply because I like tradition and ritual and my church has little.

 

[BryanW92]

Just to touch on this shortly; one thing that happens with a lot of circles that doesn't often happen with Methodists is the discussion about the moment one was saved or their conversion experience. Many Methodists can describe a conversion experience,
...
God isn't going to have his mind changed by your words; it's your heart that matters. So; yes, we believe in conversion experiences. But no, we don't think salvation comes from a conversion experience or even that everyone has one. Take a child who was baptized, later confirmed, and grew up in the church; do they need a 'conversion experience' to have a faith in Christ?

We explain the person who was born into the church,raised in the church, and never has a conversion experience as "Plan A". Their parents worked with God's plan.

The people who have a dramatic conversion experience are Plan B. They grew up surrounded by the grace of God and never knew it was God. They just thought that it was intelligence, hard work, talent, luck, etc. God needed to give that person an extra nudge to see his work in their life.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

We explain the person who was born into the church,raised in the church, and never has a conversion experience as "Plan A". Their parents worked with God's plan.

The people who have a dramatic conversion experience are Plan B. They grew up surrounded by the grace of God and never knew it was God. They just thought that it was intelligence, hard work, talent, luck, etc. God needed to give that person an extra nudge to see his work in their life.

That seems reasonable. I grew up in a tradition where the "moment of salvation" a conversion of experience, was 100% necessary. Parents talked about their kids raised in the church 'getting saved', usually, because they prayed the so-called "Sinners Prayer". Which always struck me as odd. If it's faith and not works; then why did that prayer (a work) suddenly save them? In the lifetime prior they weren't saved, but because they said the right words, instantly they WERE saved? It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. God doesn't seem that gullible. I don't think he was lying when he said he'd judge the heart and that.

Where I differ from that tradition is a belief that salvation is a state of being; not a specific event.

 

[BryanW92]

That seems reasonable. I grew up in a tradition where the "moment of salvation" a conversion of experience, was 100% necessary. Parents talked about their kids raised in the church 'getting saved', usually, because they prayed the so-called "Sinners Prayer". Which always struck me as odd. If it's faith and not works; then why did that prayer (a work) suddenly save them? In the lifetime prior they weren't saved, but because they said the right words, instantly they WERE saved? It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. God doesn't seem that gullible. I don't think he was lying when he said he'd judge the heart and that.

Where I differ from that tradition is a belief that salvation is a state of being; not a specific event.

But there is still that moment when everyone who has salvation received Justifying Grace, right?

You guys keep saying that Baptists are Calvinist, but the "choice" to walk the aisle and the "works" of the Sinners Prayer is what separates them from real Calvinists.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

But there is still that moment when everyone who has salvation received Justifying Grace, right?

You guys keep saying that Baptists are Calvinist, but the "choice" to walk the aisle and the "works" of the Sinners Prayer is what separates them from real Calvinists.

Some Baptists are Calvinists. And someone can be a Calvinist and not ascribe to predestination. I know a lot of people ascribe Calvinism as just a synonym for Predestination but there are a lot of folks who are Calvinist to a tee outside of Pre-destination. Circuitrider was a Pastor in the American Baptist Church; which is a non-Calvinist Baptist church. We're aware some aren't Calvinist, but I think we've been pointing out where we've seen Calvinist theology. Not because it's evil, but it does differ from Methodism. In many ways, Calvinism is essentially the polar opposite of Methodism.

I could concede that there's a moment that Justifying grace happens, and for some people they can pinpoint that moment. John Wesley, of course, would tell you it was at aldersgate. But where I would differ (and if you differ from me that's fine, I don't mind); is what I experienced growing up in a very Calvinist Southern Baptist Church (sans predestination), in that there was so much pressure to have some conversion experience. In fact, I even got so scared I wasn't saved I was praying the sinners prayer every night, just in case it didn't "stick". Essentially, the emphasis was on doing SOMETHING that made you 'saved', usually, a specific prayer. I had a Sunday School teacher that harped that that prayer had to be said just right or Jesus won't accept it (I realize, now, that that's not common Baptist theology, but that's what she thought anyway). Coming to Methodism was a breath of fresh air; understanding what I felt all along; that I didn't need some profound 'moment' to be assured of my salvation, but instead to be working through it with 'fear and trembling' and that my assurance comes from the journey; not from a specific moment. And at the same time, I can embrace and celebrate those who can say "And this is when I was saved". As I don't have a memory of not trusting God I don't have a moment that I decided to trust God, it just seems to have always been there. So to say I had some specific moment that I was "saved", I'd have to lie. Because I think I've always been 'saved'. As I've grown older, certainly what God has expected of me has been greater (A good Baptist or Catholic might call this 'age of accountability'), but I no longer feel the need to come up with some specific moment in my life that I was 'saved', because it started with my Baptism (I was baptized as an infant; I have a Grandmother who is a UM Pastor after all! Though I was raised in the SBC, and re-dunked at one point; but I don't believe in re-baptism ), and continued through the moments in my life. And yes, even in moments in the SBC, which is responsible for growing my faith. I cherish that, even if their theology is no longer my theology.

And, because this is going to come up, it seems, with our new guest; I believe that my theology is Biblical, and the SBC's is not. It's not that I've chosen Methodism over the Bible, as continually gets alleged (in violation of the forums rules).

 

[BryanW92]

Some Baptists are Calvinists. And someone can be a Calvinist and not ascribe to predestination. I know a lot of people ascribe Calvinism as just a synonym for Predestination but there are a lot of folks who are Calvinist to a tee outside of Pre-destination. Circuitrider was a Pastor in the American Baptist Church; which is a non-Calvinist Baptist church. We're aware some aren't Calvinist, but I think we've been pointing out where we've seen Calvinist theology. Not because it's evil, but it does differ from Methodism. In many ways, Calvinism is essentially the polar opposite of Methodism.

I could concede that there's a moment that Justifying grace happens, and for some people they can pinpoint that moment. John Wesley, of course, would tell you it was at aldersgate. But where I would differ (and if you differ from me that's fine, I don't mind); is what I experienced growing up in a very Calvinist Southern Baptist Church (sans predestination), in that there was so much pressure to have some conversion experience. In fact, I even got so scared I wasn't saved I was praying the sinners prayer every night, just in case it didn't "stick". Essentially, the emphasis was on doing SOMETHING that made you 'saved', usually, a specific prayer. I had a Sunday School teacher that harped that that prayer had to be said just right or Jesus won't accept it (I realize, now, that that's not common Baptist theology, but that's what she thought anyway). Coming to Methodism was a breath of fresh air; understanding what I felt all along; that I didn't need some profound 'moment' to be assured of my salvation, but instead to be working through it with 'fear and trembling' and that my assurance comes from the journey; not from a specific moment. And at the same time, I can embrace and celebrate those who can say "And this is when I was saved". As I don't have a memory of not trusting God I don't have a moment that I decided to trust God, it just seems to have always been there. So to say I had some specific moment that I was "saved", I'd have to lie. Because I think I've always been 'saved'. As I've grown older, certainly what God has expected of me has been greater (A good Baptist or Catholic might call this 'age of accountability'), but I no longer feel the need to come up with some specific moment in my life that I was 'saved', because it started with my Baptism (I was baptized as an infant; I have a Grandmother who is a UM Pastor after all! Though I was raised in the SBC, and re-dunked at one point; but I don't believe in re-baptism ), and continued through the moments in my life. And yes, even in moments in the SBC, which is responsible for growing my faith. I cherish that, even if their theology is no longer my theology.

And, because this is going to come up, it seems, with our new guest; I believe that my theology is Biblical, and the SBC's is not. It's not that I've chosen Methodism over the Bible, as continually gets alleged (in violation of the forums rules).

I was Methodist and am now Calvinist. People can call themselves Calvinist without predestination (or some similar thing which grants that God chooses whom he chooses), but I wouldn't call them Calvinist. SBC "Calvinism" is not Calvinism. I learned a lot about Calvinism when I was a Methodist. Most of it was wrong or hyperbole.

 

[AlexLL]

Just to touch on this shortly; one thing that happens with a lot of circles that doesn't often happen with Methodists is the discussion about the moment one was saved or their conversion experience. Many Methodists can describe a conversion experience, John Wesley included (his was at Aldersgate; and it was AFTER he was Ordained a Priest!) However, we don't generally view salvation as a permanent one time thing. Whereas many traditions teach that when you pray a certain prayer you become permanently saved; we just don't really think it works that way. God isn't going to have his mind changed by your words; it's your heart that matters. So; yes, we believe in conversion experiences. But no, we don't think salvation comes from a conversion experience or even that everyone has one. Take a child who was baptized, later confirmed, and grew up in the church; do they need a 'conversion experience' to have a faith in Christ? Certainly, they might have one, but they might not. They might continue to grow in Christ because of the faith that the church and their family instilled in them. While in some circles, even a child raised in the faith might be pressured into feeling they have to have a "moment" in which they are saved. Perhaps one of the greatest differences in Methodists and many other Fundamentalist Protestants is that for them, salvation is something that happened. (I WAS saved at X date). For Methodist, Salvation is a lifelong journey, not a single event. I AM saved, and I'm continuing to work out my salvation with God. It's not something that happened once, but something that IS happening every moment of my mortal life. And so the conversation is a little different when you look at it that way.

We don't view Baptism as necessary for salvation. An unbaptized person certainly can be in heaven. But we do believe Baptism is real, and that something happens. We also believe that it's the duty of every Christian to be baptized; and that it is not optional. I know that sounds confusing, but that's because God is capable of operating outside of human constricts. A person who finally accepts God's grace and never has the opportunity to be Baptized will not be denied the kingdom of heaven. But for those who have that opportunity, there is simply no excuse to reject it. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure if that answered your question; but maybe that'll help steer the conversation at least.

Your answer greatly helped increase my understanding. Thank you!

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I was Methodist and am now Calvinist. People can call themselves Calvinist without predestination (or some similar thing which grants that God chooses whom he chooses), but I wouldn't call them Calvinist. SBC "Calvinism" is not Calvinism. I learned a lot about Calvinism when I was a Methodist. Most of it was wrong or hyperbole.

That's probably at least a little fair. The five points are ultimately what make a Calvinist. Except, of course, for "Unconditional election", as it seems more and more folks are more/less the "four points" of Calvinism. Interestingly, I met someone who said they weren't Calvinist, they were Reformed. Umm... Calvinism is reformed theology! Ha! But I guess, there might be some distinction.

Not to excuse, but just to be fair; since Calvinism is kind of the Antithesis of Wesleyanism, it's probably expected that there be a lot of hyperbole or exaggeration when it comes to a Wesleyan Christians understanding of Calvinism.

 

[circuitrider]

But there is still that moment when everyone who has salvation received Justifying Grace, right?

You guys keep saying that Baptists are Calvinist, but the "choice" to walk the aisle and the "works" of the Sinners Prayer is what separates them from real Calvinists.

Many Baptists are semi-calvinists. They may not believe all five points. But as long as they believe in "Once Saved Always Saved" and some form of election their doctrine is mostly from Calvinism. There is a movement within the SBC to make the denomination even more Calvinist led by the President of the Southern Baptist seminary in Louisville, KY.

 

[BryanW92]

That's probably at least a little fair. The five points are ultimately what make a Calvinist. Except, of course, for "Unconditional election", as it seems more and more folks are more/less the "four points" of Calvinism. Interestingly, I met someone who said they weren't Calvinist, they were Reformed. Umm... Calvinism is reformed theology! Ha! But I guess, there might be some distinction.

Not to excuse, but just to be fair; since Calvinism is kind of the Antithesis of Wesleyanism, it's probably expected that there be a lot of hyperbole or exaggeration when it comes to a Wesleyan Christians understanding of Calvinism.

I was always taught that it is the antithesis of Wesleyanism too--when I was in the UMC. After all Free Will vs Predestination is pretty clear!

But, as a Calvinist, I learned what Free Will is and what it isn't. The best way its been explained is to talk about Alice in Wonderland who arrived a fork in the road and she didn't know which fork to take. She saw the Cheshire Cat and asked him, "Which fork should I take?"

He replied, "Where are you going?"

She said, "I don't know."

He said, "Then, it really doesn't matter, does it."

Your Free Will gives you a choice. Left, Right, Back, or Stop. Is that really a free choice? You can't choose Up or Down, can you?

God in his sovereignty tells us where we are going, so when we ask the cat, we know the destination and the whole dynamic changes. Suddenly, Back, Stop, the other fork is not really a choice anymore. It could be, but its just plain Wrong and, with the help of the Holy Spirit, you know that. With God's help, only one fork is suddenly the right answer.

So, you have some Free Will and God helped you choose the right path. The only real point of argument is how many people are given the destination by God. Was it everyone (Wesley) or was it some number less than all (Calvin)?

Certainly, not all of the Elect are Calvinist since Calvin does not save. As a Calvinist (which is the same as Reformed--I was just using the C-word since that was already in use in this thread), I firmly believe that every person who could claim salvation in my Methodist church was every bit as much a part of the Elect as those in my Presbyterian church.

Basically, you guys aren't wrong in what you believe, but you are wrong in what you believe that Calvinists believe. We aren't as exclusionary as you think. We don't think that humans are robots. We don't claim to know the number of the Elect. We don't think that Calvin is the way to the Father. We do, however, talk about Wesley as a man who had a tangible conversion experience after years of his Free Will failing him. I never heard a single good thing about Calvin when I was a Methodist.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I hear what you're saying Bryan. And I'm glad you found a home. I know you were pretty upset with your former Pastor and with the denomination as a whole. In that situation, some people reject God. I'm glad you were able to recognize that you just simply weren't where you were being called to be.