Am I going to hell

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Well, this is certainly not the position of orthodox Christianity

Orthodoxy is not a very desirable thing. To be told something is unorthodox is a badge of honor for it.

we absolutely do know that those who do not put their faith in Christ are not saved.

No one who is mortal knows anything "absolutely" whatsoever.

 

[Bonhoffer]

My dark side, does not come from satan - it comes from me. To say it comes from satan seems like a bit of a copout...

But Satan is (sadly) within you as he is within us all. However He tempts but we do!! He cannot force us to do something, but he can encourage us just like God can. We have free will!! That is why no one can use the excuse for wickeness of "Satan made me do it".

It may well seem like a cop out, thats what I said two months ago when I thought Satan didnt exist. I thought the idea of Satan as absurd and even if the God/Jesus part was true then I thought Satan was simply a metaphor. I laughed (in my head of course- I am not a rude person) when a lad told me about Satan, but now I really feel he exists although he is only as powerful as we let him to be.

I can understand when you say if your friend dies and goes to hell that you want to suffer with her. But what good will that do her?
Thats not going to bring her comfort and help her escape.

Although theres little scriptural support for it there are Christians who dont beleive in eternal damnation. Why dont you check out some Universalists? They beleive that ALL will be saved!!! There are plenty of Unitarian churches around Britain.

 

[GodOwnsMe]

mhh. hells an issue for me too.... (i mean i think about it, and what happens to other ppl)
i think what makes me still wanna go to heaven is, yeah its obviously the cooler place
but then i wanna love God & go where he wants me to go........
and i mean God doesn't want anybody to go to hell.......... i mean He gave all He had to give everyone a chance........ (i mean sending your own son to die is just like whoa !!! )
mhh. yep im wondering too (why God does not prevent Christians from that sometimes) they still got their own will after all & gotta let God lead them...... dont know exactly why else

 

[Yahweh Nissi]

Sorry to reply with 'read a book' - it seems a bit of a cop out on my part, but there are two I have read recently which have been very interesting and helped my understanding of such issues. They are both by CS Lewis, a guy I have immense respect for. The Screwtape Letters, and more specifically to your concerns, The Great Divorce. They are both excellent at getting you to think about issues in new ways and so many insightful points are cleverly made. If you do read them, however, do note what he says in both books about them not being attempts to in any way litteraly describe the spiritual world - he is simply using metaphorical accounts to get points across. I really cannot recommend them enough, and if you are short of money, do not know where to get them, cannot find them, whatever, if you just PM me your address I would be happy to post you copies of them. I really feel for you reading this thread - you seem to be in a very troubled state of mind over this and I would be happy to do anything I can to help you. I will also be praying for you, although having read your thoughts I am not sure if you would find this a comfort.

God bless anyhow,
YN.

 

[Sophia23]

thank u for the suggestion. I will look for those books, I like C.S. Lewis (well I quote him in my sig so if I don't... something weird is going on)

 

[phaedrus]

I don't know which forum to put this in, so I decided to just put it here.

Am I going to hell? I am not a Christian, but I have met Christians who have said I am not so I would like to see the range of veiws.

First off there is no one other then God who can determine whether or not you are a child of perdition. One good rule of thumb is that if it worries you chances are you are not too far gone.

I "feel" the existance of something I consider to be God, I have "seen" in physical and visionary reality (though telling between real and hallucinatory has always been an issue of mine) things that I beleive to be of God and spiritual realms. I largly develop my serious religious opinons from experience. I have never met Christ. I have seen and felt demonic presences aswell but to a far lesser degree (thank God! because ...scary!). I feel that I have a close and positive realtionship with God, but it is not well defined linguisticly, I couldn't talk about it or explain it really. I find it hard to beleive the God that I know would condem people to eternity in hell.

God does not make that choice for you, I'm convinced that people in Hell wouldn't have it any other way. It sounds to me like you are doing a little soul searching. I don't know what your personal situation is but I'll offer some advice a former priest gave me. If you want to know God ask Him to reach out to you. If you ask whole heartedly God will respond, and oh btw, if you think demons are scary just wait until you meet the one who controls you eternal destiny.

Hell is a very big issue for me, I have an ongoing morbid fascination with the hells of many beleif systems. Eternity is also an issue, I do not beleive that spirit is eternal, perhaps in the sense that matter and energy are eternal - some kind of spiritual matter might be, but spirit in the sense of "my" or something, I am less inclined to beleive.

Ok you have considered what eternity is like without God. Maybe you should try thinking about what your future would hold with Him. What do you think that heaven is like for the redeemed? The morbid fascination could give way to joy and peace if you can open yourself up to the positive side of the coin. Just a suggestion.

I am a pan-entheist. I beleive the purpose of creation is to manifest God (who is already manifest because time is only liner from a normal consiousness perspective).

What you are discribing is the reflection of God's glory in creation. You see it everywhere so you are confusing the substance with the reflection. I'll let it go at that, hope that helps.

 

[MissFirerose]

I think the "sheep and goats" bit from Matthew pretty much sums it up.

"... Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, asyou did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

So what does that all mean to me? As long as you're a good person, you are following Jesus. Someone can follow Jesus without ever knowing his name. We follow him by each bearing our own personal crosses. We must embrace a world that has rejected love. If you do that, I belive in my heart that you do in fact follow Jesus. Treat every person that you see the way you would treat Jesus, even the 13 year old hooker on the corner, and the passed out drunk. What ever we do to the least of them, we do to him.

 

[Yahweh Nissi]

thank u for the suggestion. I will look for those books, I like C.S. Lewis (well I quote him in my sig so if I don't... something weird is going on)

LOL, I had not noticed that. As I said, the Great Divorce is much more relevant to your thoughts in this thread. Hope they are of some help.

 

[Sophia23]

So what does that all mean to me? As long as you're a good person, you are following Jesus. Someone can follow Jesus without ever knowing his name. We follow him by each bearing our own personal crosses. We must embrace a world that has rejected love. If you do that, I belive in my heart that you do in fact follow Jesus. Treat every person that you see the way you would treat Jesus, even the 13 year old hooker on the corner, and the passed out drunk. What ever we do to the least of them, we do to him.

Lets aknowlage I am not a good person, I don't give anywhere near enough. I am trying harder though - but still, compared to most I am like very high up on the total selfishness scale of things.

Ehh... I am in the middle of a paradigm shift I think... everything ...somehow I am being made to look at my values face to face and to know that I am not living up to them - but in a sort of "so go do it" way - not a negative "you suc" kind of way. Everywhere I am being forced to choose. And I am realising I had choices all along - and chose to ignore them.
I can never make up for all the good I never did when I could have... when I realised how a small thing can make such a diffrence to someone... that makes me realise how many small things I never did.

 

[MissFirerose]

Lets aknowlage I am not a good person, I don't give anywhere near enough. I am trying harder though - but still, compared to most I am like very high up on the total selfishness scale of things.

Ehh... I am in the middle of a paradigm shift I think... everything ...somehow I am being made to look at my values face to face and to know that I am not living up to them - but in a sort of "so go do it" way - not a negative "you suc" kind of way. Everywhere I am being forced to choose. And I am realising I had choices all along - and chose to ignore them.
I can never make up for all the good I never did when I could have... when I realised how a small thing can make such a diffrence to someone... that makes me realise how many small things I never did.

But the difference is that you know that you have been selfish and whatnot in the past. The truly selfish person doesn't acknowledge such a fact. The truth is, we all are selfish, we all are self indulgent, we all put ourselves above others, we all sometimes choose to look the other way. But, what values make our downfalls also make us human. Without error, without mistake, we would be robots. We would be lifeless. We would be like chess pieces on a huge board. Being alive is making mistakes. Being alive is not knowing. Being alive is fear. Being alive is love. Being alive is knowing that we're less than perfect, and because we're less than perfect, we have our humanity and our humility. Humanity is imperfection. But just as we have the capability to do evil, to do wrong, we have the capacity to love, and to be loved. Just as one can be self indulgent, one can be selfless, just as one can put others below them, they can try to put others above them, just as one can choose to look the other way, they can turn their head back towards the problem. Every moment of every day of every milli-second we are constantly re-inventing ourselves. The past is just that, the past. Yes, we might have done wrong, but the truth is no one has not done wrong, and those who tell you different are either deceiving themselves or lying. The fact that you feel emotions over not helping those less fortunate than you proves that you do in fact feel empathy towards them, and that empathy can be transformed into physical, emotional, and spiritual deeds.

 

[angeljan]

sOFIA,

IT IS NEVER TOO LATE TO FIND GOD. NO ONE CAN BE PERFECT, ITS THE EFFORT YOU SHOW TO GOD THAT YOU LOVE AND HAVE FAITH IN HIM. YOU MUST BELIEVE IN HIM AND GO TO CHURCH AND PARTAKE IN HOLY COMMUNION FOR THE REMEMBRANCE AND FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

WHEN ONE TRULY CLAIMS THEY HAVE FAITH IN THE LORD THEY FOLLOW HIS WILL.

REAL FAITH PRODUCES GOOD FRUITS FOR GOD THAT IS HOW WE ARE JUDGED BY GOD. ITS NOT ENOUGH TO JUST BELIEVE YOU MUST DO AS GOD INSTRUCTED US TO DO FOLLOW HIS LAWS.

IF WE COULD NOT FOLLOW HIS COMMANDMENTS HE WOULD NOT AS A LOVING SAVIOR AND GOD ASK US TO DO SO.

LOVING GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART IS SOMEONE WHO IS IMITATING CHRIST.

LOVE PRODUCES FAITH AND FAITH PRODUCES GOOD FRUITS AND THESE FRUITS PRODUCE HOPE .


ANGELJAN

 

[Willy]

Trust in God is not for the sake of the next life. It is for the sake of a full life now.Questions about who is going to hell were not the preoccupation of Biblical writers or Jesus. They became much important during the Middle Ages and among American fundamentalism. This preoccupation, frankly, is generally for the sake of self justification.

 

[angeljan]

That was Jesus whole mission to teach who gets into the kingdom of heaven and who will not. The bible is about the rightous people of God and the unrightous. Matthew Mark, Luke and John the NT of Christ is about our Faith and salvation.

I agree trust in God is for the sake of a full life now but also for the sake of the next life. What we do in this life reflects where we go in the next.

Heaven and Hell are taught and interpretted in regard to Gods rightous people in both old testament and the new.

The bible is simply a code of ethics for Gods people to live by. They include rules and laws for us to follow which have everything to do with mans salvation.


Angel

 

[Willy]

There are only two references to life beyond death in the Old Testament, and neither of these address what will happen to individuals after death. They deal with the resurrection of the dead--written to insure the faithful that even though they might not be getting the goods now, they should not give in. God will vindicate them. The New Testament does have reference to life beyond death. But it too generally deals with this subject in terms of what God will do to death (not individuals) or in terms of dealing with those who do or do not respond to the needs of the "least of these."

 

[angeljan]

Willy,

Thes quotes are from the King James bible in regard to death afterlife in the OLD TESTAMENT.

These quotes from scripture reference the rightous people and the unrightous people .
Death of soul and spirit which references or interprets not going into the kingdom of God. It deal with the rightous and unrightous of GOd

Exod.21
[12] He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
[15] And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
[16] And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
[17] And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
[29] But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
Exod.22

[2] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Lev.16
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the LORD, and died;
Lev.19
[20] And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev.20
[2] Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
[9] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
[10] And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
[11] And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
[12] And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
[13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
[15] And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
[16] And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
[27] A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Lev.24
[16] And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
[17] And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
[21] And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.


Death of soul and spirit which references or interprets not going into the kingdom of God. It deal with the rightous and unrightous of GOd



Num.23
[10] Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!
Deut.31
[27] For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
[29] For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.



Peace
Angel

 

[angeljan]

In the old testament what happens to the wicked and unrightous
wickedness.
Lev.20
[14] And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
[17] And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
Num.16
[26] And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins.
Deut.9
[4] Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
[5] Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
[18] And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
[27] Remember thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the stubbornness of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:
Deut.13
[11] And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
Deut.15
[9] Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
Deut.17
[2] If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
[5] Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Deut.23
[9] When the host goeth forth against thine enemies, then keep thee from every wicked thing.
Deut.25
[1] If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.
[2] And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.
Deut.28
[20] The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
Judg.9
[56] Thus God rendered the wickedness of Abimelech, which he did unto his father, in slaying his seventy brethren:
Judg.19
[23] And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
Judg.20
[3] (Now the children of Benjamin heard that the children of Israel were gone up to Mizpeh.) Then said the children of Israel, Tell us, how was this wickedness?
[12] And the tribes of Israel sent men through all the tribe of Benjamin, saying, What wickedness is this that is done among you?
1Sam.2
[9] He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
1Sam.12
[17] Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and rain; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
[20] And Samuel said unto the people, Fear not: ye have done all this wickedness: yet turn not aside from following the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart;
[25] But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king.
1Sam.24
[13] As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: but mine hand shall not be upon thee.
1Sam.25
[39] And when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, Blessed be the LORD, that hath pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and hath kept his servant from evil: for the LORD hath returned the wickedness of Nabal upon his own head, And David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her to him to wife.
1Sam.3

 

[angeljan]

OLD TESTAMENT in regard to HELL with the rightous and wicked

Pss.9
[17] The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Pss.16
[10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Pss.18
[5] The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Pss.55
[15] Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Pss.86
[13] For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Pss.116
[3] The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Pss.139
[8] If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Prov.5
[5] Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Prov.7
[27] Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Prov.9
[18] But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Prov.15
[11] Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
[24] The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Prov.23
[14] Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Prov.27
[20] Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Isa.5
[14] Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa.14
[9] Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
[15] Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa.28
[15] Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
[18] And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa.57
[9] And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Ezek.31


Angel

 

[Willy]

Wow! Find another more accurate translation than the KJV, and you will not find the word "hell." Sheol was the Hebrew concept. The Greeks gave us more developed concepts of hell.

 

[angeljan]

Hades, Lake of Fire, hell,whats the difference , its there. Its just a warning for those who deny God. Its a warning for those who do not believe .

Heaven and Hell are in every bible that interprets Christian theology.

Like it or not, believe it or not.!



Angel

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Very important difference. The word translated "Hell" in the OT is "Sheol" - the abode of the dead. All the dead. Not a place of punishment, but simply where you go when you die.

Therefore, it is often used figuratively just to mean "death".