Am I going to hell

[onikirimaru777]

I am a pan-entheist.

Can u please explain what exactly that is. Tickle my curiosity bone...

 

[found1997]

that I will turn into ...dunno . .

A pod-person, perhaps?

As to the part about not being a good person, that was one of the things that I really related to about Christianity. It doesn't expect you to be a good person. And you can't earn your way in, so you don't have to keep wondering, am I good enough? am I good enough? Because you won't be and you can't be good enough. You get to stop trying to earn love and acceptance. It's just a free gift. And when you think about it, that is a totally radical and liberating idea.

You seem like such a thoughtful and introspective person. I would really just say, don't worry about "becoming a Christian." Just learn from some smart scholars what Christianity's truth claims are. Judge for yourself.

 

[Sophia23]

a pan-entheist is one who belives that God is the universe (or everything = pan) and something more as well as the universe, unlike a pantheist who beleives God to be the universe but not more than the universe...

 

[found1997]

Does every branch of Presbyterianism teach that you have the authority to place a determination on the soul of someone you've never met? You have no idea what her life experiences are, what her understanding and preconceptions of Christianity have been or any other factor that would weigh into how she will fare on judgement day. You do not know that she is hellbound. You could have very well given her the advice that you did about investigating Christianity without including your opinion about where she will end up. Last time I checked that was up to God. Wonder what he thinks about you placing yourself in a position that he reserves for himself?

seems you are missing the point. she asked for our opinion on the subject. i am not placing any determination on anything. someone says she is not a believer and wants to know if she will go to hell. from a christian standpoint, it is a question that has only one answer. it is not about judging or determining anything except that she says that she is not a believer. i am taking her at her word.

for the record, i am not a presbyterian.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Sophia, you are British? I do not believe you are headed for hell but given your ethnicity you are likely to be displeased with heaven

 

[Sophia23]

Yeah, British why?

 

[Miss Shelby]

seems you are missing the point. she asked for our opinion on the subject. i am not placing any determination on anything. someone says she is not a believer and wants to know if she will go to hell. from a christian standpoint, it is a question that has only one answer. it is not about judging or determining anything except that she says that she is not a believer. i am taking her at her word.

for the record, i am not a presbyterian.

I sure she finds great comfort in your words.

Michelle

 

[seebs]

Maybe thats what I am afraid of - that I will become one of those people who can't see that potential, I am afraid I will lose my awareness of and connection to my darker side, and in the process my control over it.

It's never been a problem for me, anyway. You are correct that it is losing awareness of the darker side that takes away your control... I worry about people who say they are not in any danger of evil, because most of the people I've met who say that seem to me to be evil a great deal of the time.

I am close to tears writing this... how on earth could I become a Christian, and be able to enjoy heaven - knowing that they are in hell? How dare I, when I am far less than they were, when I have contributed nothing so beautiful as they have... how can I dare to have a better lot than them... it goes against my sense of right and wrong that they should suffer so...

I know that, in theory, we lack the ability to judge other people, but you sure sound like you're on the path to salvation.

Here's the thing: We have no specific knowledge that any given person has gone to Hell, and if they did, we don't necessarily know why. Don't worry about it. We are told that God is just, and merciful.

 

[seebs]

Does every branch of Presbyterianism teach that you have the authority to place a determination on the soul of someone you've never met?

No. My mother-in-law is Presbyterian, and would never say such a thing.

 

[seebs]

seems you are missing the point. she asked for our opinion on the subject. i am not placing any determination on anything. someone says she is not a believer and wants to know if she will go to hell. from a christian standpoint, it is a question that has only one answer.

Yes. The answer is "we don't know." The widespread belief that simple adherence to claims is the "faith" which saves us is unsupported.

 

[Miss Shelby]

No. My mother-in-law is Presbyterian, and would never say such a thing.

Yeah.. I guess it's kind of a mute point anyway because she/he isn't Presbyterian. (found1997).

Michelle

 

[Sophia23]

I know that, in theory, we lack the ability to judge other people, but you sure sound like you're on the path to salvation.

Here's the thing: We have no specific knowledge that any given person has gone to Hell, and if they did, we don't necessarily know why. Don't worry about it. We are told that God is just, and merciful.

Interesting... and very reassuring. I just keep thinking about how much so many people have comforted me when I really needed it, and how some of those people have done the same to hundreds - and in the cases of authors - millions of others, and it just seems that overall... they did so much good - even for all their vices.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Yeah, British why?

given your ethnicity you are likely to be displeased with heaven

Of course with that name and your looks you seem Greek. Maybe British-Greek?

 

[Sophia23]

My mothers real mother (as my mum was adopted) was Italian.

 

[found1997]

Yes. The answer is "we don't know." The widespread belief that simple adherence to claims is the "faith" which saves us is unsupported.

Well, this is certainly not the position of orthodox Christianity: we absolutely do know that those who do not put their faith in Christ are not saved. At the same time, we do not know what kind of mechanism God may have in place to give people the opportunity to accept Christ at the 11th hour, so in that sense, we cannot be certain whether a particular person has or has not been saved. I don't think we have any good reason to suppose there is such a mechanism, but maybe there is.

But since that no one is in a position to say whether someone is definitely saved or not, perhaps it is better to put it in more impersonal terms: We know how to get saved, but that is not a prediction about whether a particular person will or won't be saved.

Again, I am just taking sophia at her word, and i do not believe it would be doing her any favor to say 'don't worry about it.' but sophia, hope you understand that i am not predicting anything about your future or passing any kind of personal judgment on you. I am just telling you what I understand scripture to be saying, which is that we are saved through faith in Christ alone.

 

[Sophia23]

I tend not to take personal judgment personaly these days - there is absolutly nothing you can accuse me of I haven't thought to accuse myself of already (my is that arrogance I sense in myself there )

 

[found1997]

I tend not to take personal judgment personaly these days - there is absolutly nothing you can accuse me of I haven't thought to accuse myself of already (my is that arrogance I sense in myself there )

and hope you understand that this is really not a personal judgment and I am accusing you of nothing. I think you seem like a really smart, insightful, person who cares about other people. it is very human to magnify our faults (as well as our virtues).

 

[Sophia23]

Don't worry found, I have met a few Christians who have seen things your way before (on the internet in the main, no-one in my life seems to be Christian... except my dads God Childs family who he met while he was working in Zambia, they are lovely people but I have never had an indepth conversation with them, they live far away I only met them twice), I wouldn't take it personally unless it was directed at me personally - of course it would be a much simpler and less terrifying conundrum if it were. Sometimes I wonder if its not all down to the fact the human mind needs to create the worst scenarios imaginable... although... why? I don't know. It all makes me feel quite sad.

 

[Bonhoffer]

Maybe thats what I am afraid of - that I will become one of those people who can't see that potential, I am afraid I will lose my awareness of and connection to my darker side, and in the process my control over it.

Then again perhaps not... that doesn't feel like what I mean...


Also, the thing that troubles me most about hell is not that I have to go there (if the opinions of many here are to be taken as truth) although I most ceirtainly would be\am troubled by such a prospect - but if I could make the choice to go to hell, and it meant no-one else would have to, I would gladly do so, even if it went against everything I beleive, and I am not trying to claim to be immensly altruistic here - because I am not, it is just that ...I have a minimal experience of suffering, but what I have had was enough - to instill, some, compassion... and I would think for ages... stall such a descision as long as possible, but if I could make it, in the end I would... because ...if nothing else I would think of my best freind, and how she would have to go through all that, when I was suicidal she cried because she didn't want me to die - but imagine how it would feel to know she was going to suffer worse than any earthly suffering - forever... and that my whole family would do the same, most of my other freinds, a fair few of the people I have admired over the ages (Oscar Wilde, Frederick Neitszche, Euripidies and Kafka to name a few)... I can't take that, I can't bear to think so many people I have loved, even if only through their writings after their deaths, I can't bear to think they have to go through that - I am close to tears writing this... how on earth could I become a Christian, and be able to enjoy heaven - knowing that they are in hell? How dare I, when I am far less than they were, when I have contributed nothing so beautiful as they have... how can I dare to have a better lot than them... it goes against my sense of right and wrong that they should suffer so...

Hey Sophia. You sound exactly like me just before I became a Christian.
My big issue was the Hell thing too.

I'm a big fan of the writers you mentioned as well as people such as Gandhi, Darwin, Freud and Buddha.
I felt that I couldnt belief in something which meant that Gandhi was in hell. Hell just sounded immorral!!

But when I did find God he helped me to deal with this. None of my family and quite a few of my friends are not Christians and so I have struggled with the same things that you have.
But honestly it is easier to deal with when you have Jesus in your life because he will send the Holy Spirit to comfort you!!

And please don't make the same mistake as myself and see it as your fault that Wilde and Gandhi etc... are in hell. Because its not your fault or mine!! All you really have responsiblity for is your own salvation. Its not even Gods fault for hell existing and people being there, its Satans!!

Up until a month ago I never thought Satan existed. Now I know he does!! But with Christ in my life hes no threat!! One thing I felt with me was that Satan used the thought of people like Gandhi suffering in order to put me off from finding Jesus. It sounds like hes playing the same trick with you. He knows the respect you have for all those writers you mentioned and hes using that to manipulate you. Surely the best way to honour those writers is to stand up to Satan and tell him that hes not going to put you off God anymore.
As for your friends/family who are still living, they are far more likely to be saved if you are first. You can be the one to inspire them! You can stop them from sliding into hell!! Imagine how it would feel to know that you helped stop someone from suffering

From what I've read you seem like an incredibily intelligent girl who has gone through a lot of difficult stuff!! I bet you never thought you would get out of those problems, but you did. So think of the struggles you have now as a similar thing. Becoming a Christian is a difficult step to take, but it has so many rewards!!

And who knows Gandhi and Wilde might not be in Hell. For all we might know Oscar Wilde might have converted on his death bed and there are rumours that Gandhi secretly became a Christian. The only reason he wouldnt tell others is because he would become unpopular amongst his fellow Indians for following the 'white mans religion'.
Last time I heard John Lennons words "Imagine theres no heaven" it upset me a little because I loved that guy and it sounds like he wasnt a Christian when he died. But how am I to know?
He could have found Christ in private.
And heres something to think about!! In the Bible it says "that God will have mercy on who he has mercy".
So this could mean that I could be very suprised with who I see around when I get into Heaven!!!
Some Christians even beleive that people are given a second chance to accept Christ immediatly after death. In my veiw the Bible doesnt rule this out, although Christians will still have to act as if this is peoples only chance.


Now dont worry about your dark side. We all have one of those. Even Christians. I always used to have a morbid fascination with the KKK and the Nazis, although I totally disaprove of both groups. I also have a thing for naked Chinese girls. But it isnt your fault you have bad urges, again its Satans. Its just your responsilbity not to act on them. And if you do, you do!! We've all been there

And another point! Dont put yourself down by saying your not a good enough person to deserve to go to heaven. Attacks on self-esteem are one of Satans specialities!! In Gods eyes you are every bit as worthy and loved by Him as any of those writers are/were.

And dont worry that becoming Christian will automatically make you a goody-two shoes either. I still swear, drink and tell rude jokes!! I went and got bladdered on Christmas Eve down town with everyone else.
Okay some Christians are a little boring and geeky, but they would be like that if they were atheists too!!

All I can advise is that you put your fears aside for a moment and put your faith in God, because God is Good and he loves you very dearly and so desperatly wants a personal relationship with you. It frustrates him that you wont yet allow him into your life. He wants to be your best mate!!
Its just all up to you to stop resisting and invite him in!

And can I say I think Seebs is right. I think you are onto your path to salvation!! This is because you are asking exactly the same sort of questions I did before I found God.
If you beleive in fate/destiny have you not asked yourself why you have joined Christian Forums? I found Christianity simply by chasing a Christian girl that I fancied. Sure I never got the girl but I found something miles better!!
lol

Just like it was my destiny to meet this mega fit Christian girl and find God through that why. I beleive that it is your destiny to come to Christian Forums because you are curious and you will find God!!

Sorry for rambling on a bit, but the length of my message just shows how passionate I feel about showing Jesus to people, and I've only been a Christian about a month.

God Blessxxx

 

[Sophia23]

Problem is is that if those people are in hell, I don't want to be comforted - It would feel intensly wrong to be comforted. If my freind suffers - I suffer with her, I don't wish to be comforted - I wish her to be comforted, its the nature of my love for her, and all the people I have been touched by. And I can't get by on might be, I know that an awful lot of people - in the history of mankind - will not have become Christians when they die. I can't accept anything less than ...if not eternal agony, eternal sadness on my part - paralysing sadness - not the kind you can hold in your heart and enjoy something else at the same time, I couldn't accept comfort in such a situation becuase it seems tantamount to death, it would be severing my heart from me and making it so that I cannot feel. If that is the way the world is... I wish I never feel joy, because if that is the way the world is, I should be forever in mourning for them.

My dark side, does not come from satan - it comes from me. To say it comes from satan seems like a bit of a copout...