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hyburn said:will somebody tell me if this information is relevent?
I understand the history of christians dating back to the byzentyne empire, when emperor constantine was in power....after years of loosing his power he embrassed the christian believe, thus we have the roman catholic church....(how am i doing so far?)
next I understand it as he went on many "holy cruisades" killing all those pagans who would not embrass his "religion"...
thanks for the polite post, most people tell me ( where did you get that $%##)Philip said:Relevent to what?
Not very well. There are really only two changes in the Church during Constantine's time. The first is that persecution of Christians was outlawed. The second (and partially a result of the first) is that the Church could finally gather together to denounce Arianism.
Nope. Constantine pushed tolerance of Christianity. He did not impose it as a state religion.
hyburn said:will somebody tell me if this information is relevent?
I'm am 100% Christian, but let's me honest here. Constantine did force CHristianity on pagans at the time. Christianity was his reason to go to war. He thought he was fighting a holy way for God. That was the revelation he recevied when he believed he saw a cross in the sky (he believed the cross was a sign to become CHristians and to rule the empire and fight for God)Philip said:Relevent to what?
Not very well. There are really only two changes in the Church during Constantine's time. The first is that persecution of Christians was outlawed. The second (and partially a result of the first) is that the Church could finally gather together to denounce Arianism.
Nope. Constantine pushed tolerance of Christianity. He did not impose it as a state religion.
salt_of_the_earth said:I'm am 100% Christian, but let's me honest here. Constantine did force CHristianity on pagans at the time.
Christianity was his reason to go to war. He thought he was fighting a holy way for God. That was the revelation he recevied when he believed he saw a cross in the sky (he believed the cross was a sign to become CHristians and to rule the empire and fight for God)
I don't have it infront of me now, I find it later, but if you read any historical academic books about Constantine you will read about him forcing Christianity on Jews and Pagans. He blamed the Jews for "killing Christ".Philip said:Care to offer some historical evidence of this?
He believed that God had chosen him to be the Emperor of Rome. This is quite different from fighting a war to impose Christianity on pagans.
If you have evidence to the contrary, please feel free to post it.
Danfrey said:I don't blame Constantine for the demise of the church around the time of his conversion. I blame the leaders of the church at the time for selling themselves to the state.
Philip said:And yet, no demise has been demonstrated. On the contrary, we have great victories in the Church, such as the defeat of Arianism.
Danfrey said:Are you saying that the Church did not part from the teaching of the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers?
We could talk about the butchering of people in the name of Christianity. (The Crusades)
The lack of holiness brought into the church by making Christianity synonimous with citizenship in a certain area. The mixing of pagan practices with Christianity.
Danfrey said:Are you saying that the Church did not part from the teaching of the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers? That is what I would label as demise.
We could talk about the butchering of people in the name of Christianity. (The Crusades) The lack of holiness brought into the church by making Christianity synonimous with citizenship in a certain area. The mixing of pagan practices with Christianity.
Danfrey said:The first two centuries of the ECF held a to a strict non-violent stance. They did not wield the states power or desire to. After the 200's we see a leaning toward cooperation with the state. This clearly a trend away from the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. It was the need to rectify this that led to heresies such as "The Just War". As far as the Early Church Fathers, you didn't mention Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, Ireneaus, Polycarp many of the men that came later had very different beliefs than these men.
BeforePhilip said:I am saying exactly that. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Tell me, what doctrines were changed when 'the leaders of the church at the time [sold] themselves to the state'?
Philip said:What does this have to do with Constantine? Constantine died in AD 337. The First Crusade began in AD 1095, more than 750 years after Constantine died. I fail to see how you can connect Constantine to the Crusades in any way.
Cajun Huguenot said:Hello Danfrey,
Thanks for the comments.
I have read a greater part of the fathers that you mention than the ones I mentioned. It is clear from the Scriptures that Paul certainly believed the secular state had the right and power to wield the sword as ministers of God. And we know the John the Baptist, forerunner of our Lord was not a pacifist and did not believe soldiering was not allowed to the people of God. When asked by soldiers what they should do, his simple answer was be satisfied with your wages and don’t extort and be tyrants (my paraphrase).
Cajun Huguenot said:Christians and non-Christians alike can be both civil magistrates and civil servants such as policemen and soldiers. Both are responsible to God that they do these jobs according to His will. But this does not equate to pacifism.
Danfrey said:After
Augustine
in obedience to God or some lawful authority, good men undertake wars, when they find themselves in such a position as regards the conduct of human affairs, that right conduct requires them to act, or to make others act in this way.
Danfrey said:Chrysostom
"never be afraid of the sword if thy conscience does not accuse thee: never be afraid in war if thy conscience is clear"
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