Am I abnormal??

[AnEnglishMajor]

Yeah I agree with Thom. There are plenty of worthless degrees out there.

Worthless in what regard? Give some examples..

 

[citizenthom]

Jane Austen

Born rich, lived with her parents till they died and then lived off her inheritance.

Edgar Allan Poe

Lived in poverty, potentially died in an alley of rabies. Nice example.

Ann Radcliffe

Married rich, housewife.

Virginia Woolf

Started and owned her own publishing company with her husband. Also said, "a woman must have money . . . if she is to write fiction."

Shakespeare (although Shakespeare did own part of his company, but it was only because of his writing that this was possible.)

Shakespeare was an actor before he was a writer full-time.

So all in all, thanks for proving my point.

This is just the worst view of education I have ever heard of. If you are simply going to school to be "marketable" (aka to make a lot of money), then this is true. If, however, you view education as helping you grow as a person and finding where your true passions lie, then you should chase what you want to do.

If you view college as the primary and exclusive time during which you "grow as a person" and "find where your true passions lie," then you have the worst view of life I have ever heard. In any case, education is first and foremost about preparing yourself for the job market, and always has been.

It's flat-out irresponsible to tell people to do anything but think about their careers when they're getting their degrees.

 

[AnEnglishMajor]

So all in all, thanks for proving my point.

Your points didn't disprove the idea that they wrote for a living. Sure, some of them had help but the brunt of their success came from the fruits of their words.

I chose people from long ago to illustrate that it had been going on for a long time, but there are literally thousands of authors that write full time in America for a living. This isn't counting those that write blogs, articles (newspapers, magazines, online), literary criticism, copy work, marketing materials, etc.

If you view college as the primary and exclusive time during which you "grow as a person" and "find where your true passions lie," then you have the worst view of life I have ever heard.

This is exactly why a classical education is so desperately needed. I was talking about a view of education as "showing your value to the market" and you took it as me saying "The only way to know yourself is to go to college. Otherwise, you're just a stupid useless moron who has no passions or interests."

I do, however, believe that college is the most opportune time to grow and realize your interests. You're starting to live on your own, you're being exposed to different ideas, cultures, and subjects. You have handfuls of experts from nearly every field to answer any burning questions you may have.

There isn't a much better time for it.

In any case, education is first and foremost about preparing yourself for the job market, and always has been.

This reminds me of a quote from Ezra Pound, "Real education must ultimately be limited to men who insist on knowing–the rest is mere sheep-herding."

Your idea of education is a lot like sheep-herding. It's not a broadening of horizons but rather digging a trench.

An education teaches you how to think critically, how to appreciate and dissect other viewpoints, and also opens doors to you that were previously non-existent. It ideally creates a well-rounded individual that can succeed in all walks of life.

I like Harvard's (undergraduate) mission statement, it pertains to what we're speaking about. I can't link it, but just type in "Harvard mission statement" into Google and you'll find it. Here's a snippet:

Harvard seeks to identify and to remove restraints on students' full participation, so that individuals may explore their capabilities and interests and may develop their full intellectual and human potential. Education at Harvard should liberate students to explore, to create, to challenge, and to lead.

Not once does it say "we're going to prepare them to be marketable to employers", or "we'll teach them how to prepare a mean sales proposal". Sure, there are classes inside Harvard that will do just that, but it is not the primary goal of education.

Any university worth its salt will have a mission statement that closely resembles something of that sort.

It's flat-out irresponsible to tell people to do anything but think about their careers when they're getting their degrees.

You're putting the cart before the horse here. Like my guidance counselor here at Berkeley told me as a young freshman, "When you're passionate about something, the application will find you."

This isn't to say that once you have found that passion you should just sit back, but if you are making strides in what you are interested in, you will find ways to make it succeed monetarily.

 

[citizenthom]

Just curious, AnEnglishMajor: what do you do for a living? What's your salary?

 

[AnEnglishMajor]

Just curious, AnEnglishMajor: what do you do for a living? What's your salary?

I'm 21, and I'm in my last year of my undergraduate degree. I'm applying to graduate schools this year and will more than likely flood the ranks of academia and teach. (This means my current salary is 0/yr, I'm living off of scholarship $$)

It doesn't matter what I do though, my fiancee will probably double my salary. She's graduating from pharmacy school in two years, and it generally starts at about 125k/yr. (So, I'm marrying rich like all of those writers your pointed out.)

What do you do? Since you mentioned English as a "pre" degree, I'm guessing you're a lawyer (or law student).

 

[citizenthom]

You would be correct. The OP can weigh our viewpoints accordingly.

 

[AnEnglishMajor]

You want to measure the merits of our proposed education models based on the fact that you will most likely make more money than I will (or do)? I can't say I'm surprised, but it's one of the last things I expected to hear from a Christian on a Christian forum.

Out of curiosity (and this actually really is just curiosity, not a genitalia measuring contest), what kind of law do you (or will you) practice? Where do you go to school? What do you think of Arizona's new immigration law?

 

[citizenthom]

You want to measure the merits of our proposed education models based on the fact that you will most likely make more money than I will (or do)?

Nope. I was referring to the following two concessions you just implicitly made:

1. You just admitted to having a pecuniary interest in promulgating the model you're advocating: you intend to teach college-level English, and therefore it is in your interest to promulgate the idea that an English degree is worth the money.

2. Despite claiming that one can make a living with just an English undergrad, and despite arguing against my statement than an English degree is best as a pre-degree, you are yourself pursuing an advanced degree in order to get into a more marketable position.

Out of curiosity (and this actually really is just curiosity, not a genitalia measuring contest), what kind of law do you (or will you) practice? Where do you go to school? What do you think of Arizona's new immigration law?

I'll be starting out with Legal Aid and translating that into private practice; I went to the University of Virginia for law school; and I think people who are attacking it fundamentally misunderstand the Fourth Amendment.

 

[AnEnglishMajor]

Nope. I was referring to the following two concessions you just implicitly made:

1. You just admitted to having a pecuniary interest in promulgating the model you're advocating: you intend to teach college-level English, and therefore it is in your interest to promulgate the idea that an English degree is worth the money.

So, if we were talking about the value of the medical field, we couldn't talk to doctors or medical school professors? That's a bit nonsensical.

2. Despite claiming that one can make a living with just an English undergrad, and despite arguing against my statement than an English degree is best as a pre-degree, you are yourself pursuing an advanced degree in order to get into a more marketable position.

I can't do what I want to do with an undergraduate degree of any sort. I want to teach college and am taking the steps I need in order to do so. This has no bearing on the value of English as an undergraduate degree.

I'll be starting out with Legal Aid and translating that into private practice; I went to the University of Virginia for law school; and I think people who are attacking it fundamentally misunderstand the Fourth Amendment.

Interesting, so you don't think preemption plays a role in this case?