Altar Calls - Yes/No Good/Bad

[weariedsoul]

We share in His sufferings and His glory, this isn't something reserved only for a Monk or Priest, we are all priests, its for us all.

Lets move out of the dark ages and into the light of truth.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We share in His sufferings and His glory, this isn't something reserved only for a Monk or Priest, we are all priests, its for us all.

Lets move out of the dark ages and into the light of truth.

What dark ages?

 

[Tangible]

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble, grace isn't a cheap gift, we are brought with a price, we will not enter the kingdom without humbling ourselves.

You know, this may be true. Scary thought.

Unless we are humbled and recognize that naturally we are dead in our sins, and that God alone saves, apart from anything we might think we can do, decide, or deserve, we may not enter the kingdom.

I pray this is not so, for many have been deceived.

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”
(Matthew 22:11-14 ESV)

 

[weariedsoul]

You know, this may be true. Scary thought.

Unless we are humbled and recognize that naturally we are dead in our sins, and that God alone saves,, we may not enter the kingdom.

Yes that's part of humility. But not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom. That's a scary thought.

 

[weariedsoul]

We are a kingdom of priests, we need no man to teach us.


oh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[weariedsoul]

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[Tangible]

Yes that's part of humility. But not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom. That's a scary thought.

You mean like the Pharisee? "God, I thank you that I ..." accepted, believed, surrendered, gave my heart, etc.? That IS scary.

But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
(Luke 18:13-14 ESV)

 

[weariedsoul]

You mean like the Pharisee? "God, I thank you that I ..." accepted, believed, surrendered, gave my heart, etc.? That IS scary.

But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
(Luke 18:13-14 ESV)

Who will not Enter?




Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Crypto, I think you might want to work on the speck in the Lutheran eye - "means of grace". Baptism requires doing something - getting wet with holy water while an ordained minister recites the ncessary words. The Educharist requires doing something - eating bread and drinking wine in a religious house of worship.

Traditional churches have altar calls which require specific effort on the part of those who go forward. You do not call them works (which is what they are) but "means of grace". Please do not engage in hypocrisy by calling these types of altar calls works when, in many instances, God graciously confers His grace of salvation through them.

I think you're missing something fundamental here.

We call the Word and Sacraments Means of Grace because it is God doing the work, because we are wholly passive.

If I sit down on a chair, the chair isn't the active worker but the passive recipient.

When I hear the Gospel Word preached, I am the passive recipient of that Word.

When I was taken into the water, and the Word preached over me, it was not I who acted; I am the passive recipient.

I'd be quite comfortable to call these things works, but they aren't our works they are God's works.

And, further, the chief issue is where we place the locus of salvation. It is not my choosing to be baptized that saves me, there is nothing salvific about my choosing to be baptized. What makes Baptism salvific isn't that I make the decision to be baptized, but that God who is active saves me.

The Decision Theology behind the notion of the altar call is that our decision, our choices, our actions are salvific. That's why it's problematic.

The Lutheran understanding of the Word and Sacraments does not make us the active doers, who through our cooperation or decisions find salvation; but rather that we are wholly passive recipients of Grace that comes to us through the Means of Grace.

This isn't a hypocrisy, this is a matter of discerning Law and Gospel and confessing that sinners are always entirely passive recipients of Grace, not active players. Decision Theology states that man must cooperate with God's Grace (synergism), Justification by Grace Alone through Faith Alone states that God alone is the causative and active agent, acting through His Means (monergism).

This is the crucial and necessary distinction I have consistently been trying to speak of in this thread.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

We are a kingdom of priests, we need no man to teach us.


oh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

"And He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" - Ephesians 4:11

-CryptoLutheran

 

[weariedsoul]

"And He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" - Ephesians 4:11

-CryptoLutheran

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts:

and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

 

[ViaCrucis]

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts:

and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

How does any of this negate the need for us to have teachers in the Church for our benefit?

We are a Church, not a loose confederation of magisterial individuals. It is in our togetherness--which includes having persons of many diverse gifts, callings, and vocations--that we do what we do and are what we are.

A Christian isn't an island of spirituality to whom God sends a shaft of light; but rather an organic part of a larger whole, sewn together and joined to the Body of Christ. Each of our vocations, callings, and gifts is for the mutual benefit of the entire Body, and the Spirit works through and in the Church to this capacity, corporately, in our communion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[x141]

We are one as a whole, yet individualy the spirit adides in us to teach us. Jesus spoke this truth and John echoed it, Paul set up what Moses became to Israel and for it's time or for the last two days it was the order of things, but Moses, God's servant has served his purpose. We are now in the morning of the third day. To stay in the wilderness is to be under a bloodless altar.

 

[weariedsoul]

How does any of this negate the need for us to have teachers in the Church for our benefit?

We are a Church, not a loose confederation of magisterial individuals. It is in our togetherness--which includes having persons of many diverse gifts, callings, and vocations--that we do what we do and are what we are.

A Christian isn't an island of spirituality to whom God sends a shaft of light; but rather an organic part of a larger whole, sewn together and joined to the Body of Christ. Each of our vocations, callings, and gifts is for the mutual benefit of the entire Body, and the Spirit works through and in the Church to this capacity, corporately, in our communion.

-CryptoLutheran

Paul is my teacher, he and all the other teachers found in scripture, and the HS guides me.

You guys seem stuck in the past, you seem to think God is found only in a building. I endorse church, but its hardly the only place one can find God.

 

[steve_bakr]

I think you're missing something fundamental here.

We call the Word and Sacraments Means of Grace because it is God doing the work, because we are wholly passive.

If I sit down on a chair, the chair isn't the active worker but the passive recipient.

When I hear the Gospel Word preached, I am the passive recipient of that Word.

When I was taken into the water, and the Word preached over me, it was not I who acted; I am the passive recipient.

I'd be quite comfortable to call these things works, but they aren't our works they are God's works.

And, further, the chief issue is where we place the locus of salvation. It is not my choosing to be baptized that saves me, there is nothing salvific about my choosing to be baptized. What makes Baptism salvific isn't that I make the decision to be baptized, but that God who is active saves me.

The Decision Theology behind the notion of the altar call is that our decision, our choices, our actions are salvific. That's why it's problematic.

The Lutheran understanding of the Word and Sacraments does not make us the active doers, who through our cooperation or decisions find salvation; but rather that we are wholly passive recipients of Grace that comes to us through the Means of Grace.

This isn't a hypocrisy, this is a matter of discerning Law and Gospel and confessing that sinners are always entirely passive recipients of Grace, not active players. Decision Theology states that man must cooperate with God's Grace (synergism), Justification by Grace Alone through Faith Alone states that God alone is the causative and active agent, acting through His Means (monergism).

This is the crucial and necessary distinction I have consistently been trying to speak of in this thread.

-CryptoLutheran

Many times I have enjoyed your posts, as you so often bring a clear and focused perspective to the topic.

Aristotle says, "To understand is to be passive." And Aquinas says, "The human intellect is passive to the enlightening of the Divine Light." So I can understand the importance of our passivity in receiving the Sacraments and His Grace.

But I have also come to believe that our Lord's relationship with us somehow involves our volitional will. Perhaps He would have it no other way, because love is voluntary.

Of course, being a Catholic, I believe that we cooperate with the work of God's Grace in us. But we would not even be able to do that if His grace had not first acted in us and enabled us to do so

But, as far as receiving the Sacrament at the Holy Eucharist, I agree with you completely. That is a moment when I need to be totally passive and receptive.

 

[weariedsoul]

Do you guys see a disturbing message in this scripture?

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think you're missing something fundamental here.

We call the Word and Sacraments Means of Grace because it is God doing the work, because we are wholly passive.

If I sit down on a chair, the chair isn't the active worker but the passive recipient.

When I hear the Gospel Word preached, I am the passive recipient of that Word.

When I was taken into the water, and the Word preached over me, it was not I who acted; I am the passive recipient.

I'd be quite comfortable to call these things works, but they aren't our works they are God's works.

And, further, the chief issue is where we place the locus of salvation. It is not my choosing to be baptized that saves me, there is nothing salvific about my choosing to be baptized. What makes Baptism salvific isn't that I make the decision to be baptized, but that God who is active saves me.

The Decision Theology behind the notion of the altar call is that our decision, our choices, our actions are salvific. That's why it's problematic.

The Lutheran understanding of the Word and Sacraments does not make us the active doers, who through our cooperation or decisions find salvation; but rather that we are wholly passive recipients of Grace that comes to us through the Means of Grace.

This isn't a hypocrisy, this is a matter of discerning Law and Gospel and confessing that sinners are always entirely passive recipients of Grace, not active players. Decision Theology states that man must cooperate with God's Grace (synergism), Justification by Grace Alone through Faith Alone states that God alone is the causative and active agent, acting through His Means (monergism).

This is the crucial and necessary distinction I have consistently been trying to speak of in this thread.

-CryptoLutheran

I will not belabor my point. I understand the Lutheran POV and I also understand the view being discussed here. One can simply say that God's means of grace includes a much wider range of things than those enumerated by your church. Frankly, I can understand how God's grace is extended through the crudest and vilest of human efforts. with the result being the salvation of souls. As I am sure we both agree, God saves us in spite of our efforts, not because of them. Thus, on one hand it is not the effort (however sincere it may be) of one responding to an altar call (be it in a Baptist church or in a Lutheran church) that efffects God's grace, but it is God efficaciously pouring forth His grace on the unworthy recipient.

 

[Tangible]

Lutheran theology never denies the action of God working by the Gospel, whether in a Lutheran church, Baptist, Pentecostal, RCC, or whatever orthodox church it may be. We only wish to warn those who may be drifting that the object of saving faith is Christ alone, not one's own decisions to follow Christ or other good and pious works resulting from God's salvation of sinners.

I've heard Evangelicals suggest that a cradle Lutheran who never had a recognizable conversion experience would not be "really" saved. Lutherans simply say that an Evangelical had first to have been saved by God before it was possible for him to have decided to follow Christ.