Alright, A Different Slant ...Where IS Hell?

[FundamentalistJohn]

But, correct me if I'm wrong, you DO believe in (have faith in) the mainstream Christian concept of hell (literal eternal torment) do you not?

Not that it is the issue at hand but yes I do believe in the existence of hell although I am not sure that my vision of hell is mainstream. However in the OP you make the statement that hell is a figment of imagination. That positive statement places the onus upon you to prove that it is indeed a figment of imagination. I rightly point out that not knowing the location of Hell in no way disproves it exists. In other words you can prove where it does not exist, not that it does not exist. That (your positive statement that hell is a figment of imagination) does not place the onus upon me to prove that hell exists.

 

[CCGirl]

I've also heard that Hell a state of mind. (as anyone who's ever been depressed can probably attest, there is a state of mind that can seem like hell. )

If there is a hell, this is it.

 

[JTKIRK]

Hey KC, the debate issue on Hell, seems to have burn itself out.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Hell is in a persons own mind.
There is no Hell.

and because CF is so lax on rules, ungodly blasphemous statements like this run rampant on a board that "supposed" to be geared to christian theology and ethics.

I urge CF to purge this heresy from our forums and bring it back to a pure state where christians can ask theological questions without having to hear such blasphemy. How tiring and old are these elementary statements.

 

[KCKID]

Hell is in a persons own mind.
There is no Hell.

and because CF is so lax on rules, ungodly blasphemous statements like this run rampant on a board that "supposed" to be geared to christian theology and ethics.

What Sitswithamouse states is basically true. The concept of 'hell' that YOU apparently get so offended about when someone doesn't share your enthusiasm for 'eternal torment' IS in one's mind. However, the biblical concept of 'hell' is merely the grave. THAT'S where 'hell' is! It's a 'state of death'. Don't allow ignorance of the scriptures to cloud your judgment on issues such as this. Also, don't allow ignorance of the scriptures to cause you to get upset to the point where you appeal to the mods to uphold a belief that does not exist in reality. Blasphemy indeed!

I urge CF to purge this heresy from our forums and bring it back to a pure state where christians can ask theological questions without having to hear such blasphemy. How tiring and old are these elementary statements.

What a lot of emotional bunk! HOWEVER, since you're apparently so enthused about a literal place of eternal torment for the lost why don't you answer the question of the OP? That is ...where, precisely IS hell? If you can't tell us where it is then how can you possibly promote the idea that a literal 'hell' actually exists? It's a fair question. Where IS hell?

 

[soul_biscuit]

and because CF is so lax on rules, ungodly blasphemous statements like this run rampant on a board that "supposed" to be geared to christian theology and ethics.

It also happens to be a board where free discussion is allowed. If hell exists, it should be possible (even if it hasn't been done yet) to demonstrate so in a way this is unambiguous to everyone.

I urge CF to purge this heresy from our forums and bring it back to a pure state where christians can ask theological questions without having to hear such blasphemy. How tiring and old are these elementary statements.

That is of course within the right of the people who run this forum, but I hope it doesn't happen. The days when the Inquisition could torture and kill me for not agreeing with the mainstream are over. Christianity has to compete in the marketplace of ideas now, like it or not.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

What Sitswithamouse states is basically true. The concept of 'hell' that YOU apparently get so offended about when someone doesn't share your enthusiasm for 'eternal torment' IS in one's mind. However, the biblical concept of 'hell' is merely the grave. THAT'S where 'hell' is! It's a 'state of death'. Don't allow ignorance of the scriptures to cloud your judgment on issues such as this. Also, don't allow ignorance of the scriptures to cause you to get upset to the point where you appeal to the mods to uphold a belief that does not exist in reality. Blasphemy indeed!

Hell has been affirmed for thousands of years, from Jesus to the Apostles, to the Early Church Fathers, the Greeks, up to the Dark Ages and past. I don't need to affirm whats already been affirmed, both in scripture and the flock of Christ.

What a lot of emotional bunk! HOWEVER, since you're apparently so enthused about a literal place of eternal torment for the lost why don't you answer the question of the OP? That is ...where, precisely IS hell? If you can't tell us where it is then how can you possibly promote the idea that a literal 'hell' actually exists? It's a fair question. Where IS hell

By Flavius Josephus

1. Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.
2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.
3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoice in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.
5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to be destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged.
6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment: and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: Concerning Whom We Have Elsewhere Given A More Particular Account, For The Sake Of Those Who Seek After Truth. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, Just Is Thy Judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. But the just shall remember only their righteous actions, whereby they have attained the heavenly kingdom, in which there is no sleep, no sorrow, no corruption, no care, no night, no day measured by time, no sun driven in his course along the circle of heaven by necessity, and measuring out the bounds and conversions of the seasons, for the better illumination of the life of men; no moon decreasing and increasing, or introducing a variety of seasons, nor will she then moisten the earth; no burning sun, no Bear turning round [the pole], no Orion to rise, no wandering of innumerable stars. The earth will not then be difficult to be passed over, nor will it be hard to find out the court of paradise, nor will there be any fearful roaring of the sea, forbidding the passengers to walk on it; even that will be made easily passable to the just, though it will not be void of moisture. Heaven will not then be uninhabitable by men, and it will not be impossible to discover the way of ascending thither. The earth will not be uncultivated, nor require too much labor of men, but will bring forth its fruits of its own accord, and will be well adorned with them. There will be no more generations of wild beasts, nor will the substance of the rest of the animals shoot out any more; for it will not produce men, but the number of the righteous will continue, and never fail, together with righteous angels, and spirits [of God], and with his word, as a choir of righteous men and women that never grow old, and continue in an incorruptible state, singing hymns to God, who hath advanced them to that happiness, by the means of a regular institution of life; with whom the whole creation also will lift up a perpetual hymn from corruption, to incorruption, as glorified by a splendid and pure spirit. It will not then be restrained by a bond of necessity, but with a lively freedom shall offer up a voluntary hymn, and shall praise him that made them, together with the angels, and spirits, and men now freed from all bondage.
7. And now, if you Gentiles will be persuaded by these motives, and leave your vain imaginations about your pedigrees, and gaining of riches, and philosophy, and will not spend your time about subtleties of words, and thereby lead your minds into error, and if you will apply your ears to the hearing of the inspired prophets, the interpreters both of God and of his word, and will believe in God, you shall both be partakers of these things, and obtain the good things that are to come; you shall see the ascent unto the immense heaven plainly, and that kingdom which is there. For what God hath now concealed in silence [will be then made manifest,] what neither eye hath seen, nor ear hath heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for them that love him.
8. In whatsoever ways I shall find you, in them shall I judge you entirely: so cries the End of all things. And he who hath at first lived a virtuous lift, but towards the latter end falls into vice, these labors by him before endured shall be altogether vain and unprofitable, even as in a play, brought to an ill catastrophe. Whosoever shall have lived wickedly and luxuriously may repent; however, there will be need of much time to conquer an evil habit, and even after repentance his whole life must be guarded with great care and diligence, after the manner of a body, which, after it hath been a long time afflicted with a distemper, requires a stricter diet and method of living; for though it may be possible, perhaps, to break off the chain of our irregular affections at once, yet our amendment cannot be secured without the grace of God, the prayers of good men, the help of the brethren, and our own sincere repentance and constant care. It is a good thing not to sin at all; it is also good, having sinned, to repent; as it is best to have health always, but it is a good thing to recover from a distemper. To God be glory and dominion for ever and ever Amen.

 

[PhilosophicalBluster]

CiC, you could at least use the 'Enter' button...

Hell has been affirmed for thousands of years, from Jesus to the Apostles, to the Early Church Fathers, the Greeks, up to the Dark Ages and past. I don't need to affirm whats already been affirmed, both in scripture and the flock of Christ.

Point to one piece of scripture that divulges the location of hell please.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

Not knowing the location of hell =/= there is no hell. That is a logical fallacy.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Hey KC, the debate issue on Hell, seems to have burn itself out.

No different than a thread asking about proving the need to breathe.




----I've been to hell and fortunately got out. But to be polite to all of those still there promoting leftist ideals, I'll just pray and be silent. No need to pour salt in open wounds.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

If there is a hell, this is it.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.

It is the opium of the people.


~Karl Marx~

In reality, opium is the opiate of the people.

Old myths die hard I see. How many people desire legalized drugs . . .

 

[tcampen]

What Sitswithamouse states is basically true. The concept of 'hell' that YOU apparently get so offended about when someone doesn't share your enthusiasm for 'eternal torment' IS in one's mind. However, the biblical concept of 'hell' is merely the grave. THAT'S where 'hell' is! It's a 'state of death'. Don't allow ignorance of the scriptures to cloud your judgment on issues such as this. Also, don't allow ignorance of the scriptures to cause you to get upset to the point where you appeal to the mods to uphold a belief that does not exist in reality. Blasphemy indeed!

It also happens to be a board where free discussion is allowed. If hell exists, it should be possible (even if it hasn't been done yet) to demonstrate so in a way this is unambiguous to everyone.

What a lot of emotional bunk! HOWEVER, since you're apparently so enthused about a literal place of eternal torment for the lost why don't you answer the question of the OP? That is ...where, precisely IS hell? If you can't tell us where it is then how can you possibly promote the idea that a literal 'hell' actually exists? It's a fair question. Where IS hell?

That is of course within the right of the people who run this forum, but I hope it doesn't happen. The days when the Inquisition could torture and kill me for not agreeing with the mainstream are over. Christianity has to compete in the marketplace of ideas now, like it or not.

I hope it is not happening, too. I will not talk about the content of the messages, but will only say I've been "contacted" 3 times in the last week or so for posts in E&M, after having only one prior such contact for a post I had written in the 5+ years I've been at CF. I agree that CF can do whatever they want, it is a private website, but getting these warnings when my posts are no different than they'd ever been creates something a moving target on what is permissible under the CF rules. I will respect the rules if I continue to stay here, they are not mine to violate. But I think the nature of some areas at CF lend themselves to more controversial discourse, including E&M. I encourage a hightened level of tolerance in the diversity of ideas to the extent practicable.

With that said... Hell is located in one's mind.

 

[KCKID]

I hope it is not happening, too. I will not talk about the content of the messages, but will only say I've been "contacted" 3 times in the last week or so for posts in E&M, after having only one prior such contact for a post I had written in the 5+ years I've been at CF. I agree that CF can do whatever they want, it is a private website, but getting these warnings when my posts are no different than they'd ever been creates something a moving target on what is permissible under the CF rules. I will respect the rules if I continue to stay here, they are not mine to violate. But I think the nature of some areas at CF lend themselves to more controversial discourse, including E&M. I encourage a hightened level of tolerance in the diversity of ideas to the extent practicable.

Well said.

With that said... Hell is located in one's mind.

Again, well said.

 

[Zaac]

You truly are too fascinated by Hell.:o

Mainstream Christianity teaches without hesitation that 'the lost' (once deceased) will finish up in a literal place of punishment to be - also literally - tormented for eternity.

Nope. We teach that hell is temporary, and that the Lake of Fire, which hell will be thrown into, is eternal.

Note that this place is NOT a place of rehabilitation somewhat like our prison system is supposed to be but the actual end of the line for its 'inmates'.

Again, if you're talking about hell, it's not taught to be the end of the line. That's still the Lake of Fire.

And if you CHOOSE in this lifetime to desire separation from Christ, why shouldn't you be allowed to have what you CHOSE for all eternity?

Once there, there is NO escape. Nor is there ANY way for 'the inmate' to redeem him/herself.

You're not capable of redeeming yourself. That's the thinking that would have gotten you to eternal separation from God in the first place.

There is NO remission for good behavior or for one's having realized the error of their ways and having repented of their sins.

Sure isn't. You had a lifetime and chose to harden your heart to the truth. As a result, you'll be right where you chose to be.

THAT'S IT for ever and ever and ever

!

Yep, you get what you CHOSE for ever and ever and ever.

As the song says, 'WE are programed to receive, but YOU can never leave ...' That raises another question or two. Who are the 'we' that are doing the punishing/tormenting?

Why does anyone have to be doing the tormenting in a lake of burning sulfur?

Are they among 'the lost' also? If so, then why do they have the authority to punish/torment others if they're on a par with the others? If not, then why are THEY there to begin with? Can they never leave either? Why? What does eternal torment even mean?

Who is this "they" and what Biblical reason do you have for believing that a "they" will be doing the tormenting while you reject the same Biblical testimony of an actual hell?

Now, if Mainstream Christianity is SO confident that hell is situated in an actual geographical location ...then it HAS to be somewhere. Right? But where? Is it maybe located somewhere in the center of the earth? Or, on an asteroid, perhaps? Or, how about in another dimension? One cannot in all reason spend their entire lives warning others about hell but be so vague as to where hell is. .[/quote]

Why don't you start chasing after Jesus Christ with the same vigor that you pursue hell?

I mean, if I'm going to believe in a LITERAL hell then I want to be told precisely where it's at. Is that so unreasonable a request?

Yes. Knowing the literal location of hell ain't got a thing to do with your disbelief. Now that's a nice way for you to make God responsible for your unbelief, and as much as it works for you, it ain't gonna mean much to God.

If He allowed His only Son to die because of sin, why should He be merciful to the one who chooses to reject Him?

If one is selling me an idea then I don't want only 50% percent of the information and be expected to accept it 100%.

You're expected to do what you will do.

I believe that hell is a figment of your (whoever) imagination.

So?

So ...prove me wrong.

Why?

 

[CreedIsChrist]

You truly are too fascinated by Hell.:o

I think thats a good thing actually. Shows they are thinking

I recommend this book to KCKID. It has records of visions of christian mystics on the accounts of hell, some of which had obtained actual burns and physical deformaties after they're experience

http://www.amazon.com/Hell-Plus-How...r_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233044664&sr=1-12

Its a very old book, written by an 18th century priest I believe. Many weird accounts. Even for people who don't believe its a book you can't put down.

 

[HighwayMan]

turn on the news and see what's going on around the world or even in your own neighborhood, and you'll find it.

 

[Sitswithamouse]

and because CF is so lax on rules, ungodly blasphemous statements like this run rampant on a board that "supposed" to be geared to christian theology and ethics.

I urge CF to purge this heresy from our forums and bring it back to a pure state where christians can ask theological questions without having to hear such blasphemy. How tiring and old are these elementary statement

The mighty ... are gone down to hell with their weapons of war, and they have laid their swords under their heads" (Ezek. 32:27). This could not be the popular hell. The supposed ghosts of wicked men do not take swords to hell with them. But the bodies of great men in ancient times were accompanied to the grave with the weapons they used in their lifetime: and this is the fact referred to in the passage, which shows the hell spoken of is the grave.

Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" (Psa. 16:10). Peter quotes this as a prophecy of Christ's resurrection from the grave (Acts 2:27-32). With this meaning it is possible to understand it; but how is it possible to contemplate the idea of Christ having gone to the conventional hell?

As stated in my last post post. The Jews believed that Hell was a place of purgatory and you were cleansed after a year and went to God.

Hell is the grave.

 

[EvangelicalChristian]

The mighty ... are gone down to hell with their weapons of war, and they have laid their swords under their heads" (Ezek. 32:27). This could not be the popular hell. The supposed ghosts of wicked men do not take swords to hell with them. But the bodies of great men in ancient times were accompanied to the grave with the weapons they used in their lifetime: and this is the fact referred to in the passage, which shows the hell spoken of is the grave.

Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell" (Psa. 16:10). Peter quotes this as a prophecy of Christ's resurrection from the grave (Acts 2:27-32). With this meaning it is possible to understand it; but how is it possible to contemplate the idea of Christ having gone to the conventional hell?

As stated in my last post post. The Jews believed that Hell was a place of purgatory and you were cleansed after a year and went to God.

Hell is the grave.

Hi Melancholy;
I have come to appreciate your posts even if I don't agree with you. I am led to ask you what do you think Jesus was speaking of when He refers tof the place where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth unending?

 

[pgp_protector]

Hell is not eternal. The Lake of Fire IS.

Let me ask, before attempting to answer any more of your questions KC. Are you a Christian? Have you repented of your sins and accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

Ok, where is the Eternal Lake of Fire Located at ?

 

[pgp_protector]

and because CF is so lax on rules, ungodly blasphemous statements like this run rampant on a board that "supposed" to be geared to christian theology and ethics.

I urge CF to purge this heresy from our forums and bring it back to a pure state where christians can ask theological questions without having to hear such blasphemy. How tiring and old are these elementary statements.

So according to you , saying there is no hell is blasphemy ?
Wow has that definition changed.

So is it also blasphemy to say I don't agree with you, is that now an unforgivable sin to boot ?