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Alleged Contradictions

icbal

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Now.. this is not to be different...

(well, maybe it is)

but why do you all assume that is the the "30 cubits" that is inaccurate?

I mean, you do all realise that is the circumference is indeed 30, and Pi is still Pi, then the diameter is somewhere in the vacinity of 9.55 cubits?

Which is, needless to say, pretty close to 10 cubits.
If a cubit is 17 inches, the difference is 13ft 6in to 14ft 2in.
Thats a 4.7% margin of error.

In terms of accuracy, we have to ask the question, "is it within +/- half the lowest unit?"
The answer is yes.
The difference being 8 inches and half the lowest unity of measurement being 8.5inches.

For the unit of measurement given, it is acceptable by todays standards as being accurate.

I hereby confirm the "contradiction" as invalid.
 
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TheMagi

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humblemuslim said:
Again this shouldn't be surprising. The formula this time requires the denominator be constant with an increasoing numerator, therefore the value will slow increase. But it doesn't increase fast enough and the maximum converision factor is unable to reach a true value of Pi
Mabye I am being really thick - I haven't done any maths for a long time - but couldn't you just do it the other way round?
Magi
 
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humblemuslim

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Now.. this is not to be different...

(well, maybe it is)

but why do you all assume that is the the "30 cubits" that is inaccurate?

I mean, you do all realise that is the circumference is indeed 30, and Pi is still Pi, then the diameter is somewhere in the vacinity of 9.55 cubits?

Which is, needless to say, pretty close to 10 cubits.
If a cubit is 17 inches, the difference is 13ft 6in to 14ft 2in.
Thats a 4.7% margin of error.

In terms of accuracy, we have to ask the question, "is it within +/- half the lowest unit?"
The answer is yes.
The difference being 8 inches and half the lowest unity of measurement being 8.5inches.

For the unit of measurement given, it is acceptable by todays standards as being accurate.

I hereby confirm the "contradiction" as invalid.


If we stay within the case outlined above, another whole number value would yield a Better value of Pi. That is the whole point of this alleged contradiction. If a better whole number value could be offered, then there is a problem. Whenever I get the time I'm going to pose the other situtation that might be possible, but in the situtation looked at in my earlier posts it is impossible for 30 cubits and 10 cubits to yield the best Pi value. If we convert over into inches it doesn't even reach the value 3. If we stay in cubits it merely is 3. But this alleged contradiction is far from concluded the next situtation is alittle more complicated. :)
 
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humblemuslim

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Mabye I am being really thick - I haven't done any maths for a long time - but couldn't you just do it the other way round?
Magi

In essence the next situation, which I'll compose soon God Willing, will deal with this.


Too much maths for a simple equation in my opinion.

For the time spent, which wasn't much time at all, I found it timeworthy. Not all people are very good at mathematics, therefore I laid out a list of calculations clearly showing the pattern, then commenting on why the pattern is how it is and why further calculations aren't required.
 
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icbal

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I'm not suggesting what you showed us was too much to prove a point.
Though 3 or 4 examples would have sufficed.

I mean, I think you are looking at this far too intricately.

In modern mathematics, the lowest unit of measure is the cubit, which means its only inaccurate if its beyond the boundaries of +/- half of a cubit.
If the 10 is true then the 30 is false.
But if the 30 is true, then the 10 is mathematically accurate.

Its not necessarily the 10 which is true.
Thats my point.

I dont expect all measurements in the bible to be spot on perfect.
 
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TheMagi

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icbal said:
I dont expect all measurements in the bible to be spot on perfect.
Our knowledge of what constituted a cubit is practically nothing. We are extrapolating from much later standardised measures. Do we know they were standardised? And even if there was, say, astandard measure for cloth, why on earth does that mean that the measure we are given isn't that using the arm of some random workman?

Magi
 
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Green Man

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Which came first,the heaven or the Earth?

Qur'an 2:29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth;THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments(Skies)...

Qur'an79:27-30 Are you the harder to create,or is the heaven that He built?He raised the height thereof and ordered it;and He has made dark the night thereof,and He brought forth the morning thereof.And after that,He spread(flattened)the earth.
 
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Green Man

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Green Man said:
Which came first,the heaven or the Earth?

Qur'an 2:29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth;THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments(Skies)...

Qur'an79:27-30 Are you the harder to create,or is the heaven that He built?He raised the height thereof and ordered it;and He has made dark the night thereof,and He brought forth the morning thereof.And after that,He spread(flattened)the earth.

Anybody going to address this one?
 
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Cirbryn

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Green Man said:
Which came first,the heaven or the Earth?

Qur'an 2:29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth;THEN He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments(Skies)...

Qur'an79:27-30 Are you the harder to create,or is the heaven that He built?He raised the height thereof and ordered it;and He has made dark the night thereof,and He brought forth the morning thereof.And after that,He spread(flattened)the earth.
Maybe He created the things that are on the Earth first and let them float around for awhile, then He created Heaven, then He created the Earth.

Or else maybe he created the Earth and the things on it first, but He made the Earth really bumpy, then He created Heaven, then He flattened the Earth. (But not super-flat).

Or maybe He first requisitioned the Earth from a subcontractor, then ... wait, forget that one.

OK, He created the Earth first, see, but then he had to FedEx it to the Heavenly construction site and He didn't want to pay for overnight delivery (since "night" was still a novelty and the shipping costs hadn't settled down yet) so it got there a few days later and He spread it out then.

What could be more clear?
 
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Green Man

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Cirbryn said:
Maybe He created the things that are on the Earth first and let them float around for awhile, then He created Heaven, then He created the Earth.

Or else maybe he created the Earth and the things on it first, but He made the Earth really bumpy, then He created Heaven, then He flattened the Earth. (But not super-flat).

Or maybe He first requisitioned the Earth from a subcontractor, then ... wait, forget that one.

OK, He created the Earth first, see, but then he had to FedEx it to the Heavenly construction site and He didn't want to pay for overnight delivery (since "night" was still a novelty and the shipping costs hadn't settled down yet) so it got there a few days later and He spread it out then.

What could be more clear?


It's all so clear now,lol.
 
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humblemuslim

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Nope, I think this will get ignored - since it is a direct contradiction. There are few more too...

Anybody going to address this one?

Yes I'll address it. I haven't been online for awhile if you didn't notice, which would make it difficult for me to offer a response ;)

Letme get something to eat and I'll come back today at some point and offer answers to this alleged contradiction :thumbsup:


Be back soon

Peace
 
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humblemuslim

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Ok I'm back.


002.029
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.
SHAKIR: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.


079.028
YUSUFALI: On high hath He raised its canopy, and He hath given it order and perfection.
PICKTHAL: He raised the height thereof and ordered it;
SHAKIR: He raised high its height, then put it into a right good state.

079.029
YUSUFALI: Its night doth He endow with darkness, and its splendour doth He bring out (with light).
PICKTHAL: And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.
SHAKIR: And He made dark its night and brought out its light.

079.030
YUSUFALI: And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);
PICKTHAL: And after that He spread the earth,
SHAKIR: And the earth, He expanded it after that.





041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010
YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

041.011
YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
SHAKIR: Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

041.012
YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.




Surah 41 rather helps clear this up in terms of an order argument. God created the earth, stuff on earth, THEN turned to the heavens and finished them (The heavens were smoke, therefore that is what God turned to in Surah 2 verse 29). Therefore the smoke which was the "heavens" at one point in time either was created along with the earth or before it. Finally in terms of Surah 79 it has absolutely no reasonable application as a contradiction to the other two accounts of creation. Why you ask? Here is a brief explaination not composed by myself (I'll omit several elements of the commentary that aren't essential to the point I'm trying to make( [...] indicates an ommision):


[...]The first verse (The author is referring to 2:29) uses the word "Khalaqa" (created). The second set of verses (This is referring to Surah 79 verses) only say that God "Daha" (spread out and gave features) the earth after the creation of the heavens, not that he "Khalaqa" (created) it. [...] In other words, God created the earth, created the heavens, and then gave the earth its features and spread them out. [...] The verses say "And the earth He "daha" after that; He extracted from its water and its fodder, and the mountains He planted firmly..." Thus, it is quite clear from the verses themselves what is meant by this word. It simply means "to spread out and give features, such as streams, mountains, plants, etc."


There is another argument regarding the word which translated as "Then". The word being translated as "Then" is "Tumma" is 2:29 (And this word is also used in another verse you didn't mention 41:11 which is some ways supports the short argument cited above this). Tumma has several meanings including "and also" or "moreover" or even "Furthermore". The fact of the matter is the word being translated as "Then" isn't necessarily meant to imply order. God doesn't say "First I made this, Second this, Thrid this, etc...". Therefore the order of creation isn't actually something one can get from these verses necessarily, and if you want an argument that does account for order there are plenty (Including the same argument above). For all we know everything might have happened at the same instant.



Pretty much take your pick of solutions. Honestly I like the first answer I offered which includes Surah 41 for clarifaction.


Peace
 
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humblemuslim

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I can bring up a whole lot more.But he did ask for one at a time.

Thank you for presenting one at a time :) You can either comment on what I've offered or offer another alleged contradiciton.

Thanks

Peace
 
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humblemuslim

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Maybe He created the things that are on the Earth first and let them float around for awhile, then He created Heaven, then He created the Earth.

Or else maybe he created the Earth and the things on it first, but He made the Earth really bumpy, then He created Heaven, then He flattened the Earth. (But not super-flat).

Or maybe He first requisitioned the Earth from a subcontractor, then ... wait, forget that one.

OK, He created the Earth first, see, but then he had to FedEx it to the Heavenly construction site and He didn't want to pay for overnight delivery (since "night" was still a novelty and the shipping costs hadn't settled down yet) so it got there a few days later and He spread it out then.

What could be more clear?


Nice Joke, although if you seriously think this is a contradiction a joke might not be the best way to support this view. :thumbsup:
 
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Green Man

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humblemuslim said:
Ok I'm back.


002.029
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.
SHAKIR: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.


079.028
YUSUFALI: On high hath He raised its canopy, and He hath given it order and perfection.
PICKTHAL: He raised the height thereof and ordered it;
SHAKIR: He raised high its height, then put it into a right good state.

079.029 Am I correctrevealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.




Surah 41 rather helps clear this up in terms of an order argument. God created the earth, stuff on earth, THEN turned to the heavens and finished them (The heavens were smoke, therefore that is what God turned to in Surah 2 verse 29). Therefore the smoke which was the "heavens" at one point in time either was created along with the earth or before it. Finally in terms of Surah 79 it has absolutely no reasonable application as a contradiction to the other two accounts of creation. Why you ask? Here is a brief explaination not composed by myself (I'll omit several elements of the commentary that aren't essential to the point I'm trying to make( [...] indicates an ommision):





There is another argument regarding the word which translated as "Then". The word being translated as "Then" is "Tumma" is 2:29 (And this word is also used in another verse you didn't mention 41:11 which is some ways supports the short argument cited above this). Tumma has several meanings including "and also" or "moreover" or even "Furthermore". The fact of the matter is the word being translated as "Then" isn't necessarily meant to imply order. God doesn't say "First I made this, Second this, Thrid this, etc...". Therefore the order of creation isn't actually something one can get from these verses necessarily, and if you want an argument that does account for order there are plenty (Including the same argument above). For all we know everything might have happened at the same instant.



Pretty much take your pick of solutions. Honestly I like the first answer I offered which includes Surah 41 for clarifaction.


Peace


It took me a couple of minutes to see there are three different translations here.For the sake of convenience,I settled on PICKTHAL.No special reason,one seems as good as the other.
As a seperate point,why are so many different translations needed?
I noticed a couple of other things I would like to address.Am I correct in assuming Surah translates to chapter?
In Surah 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in six days.
25:29HeWho created the heavens and earth ,and all that is inbetween,in Six Days.However,in 41:9,41:10,and 41:12,the creation takes eight days.
What are these seven heavens and what is their purpose?
I'm looking forward to a peaceful,civil discussion here.Thanx for replying.
 
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Electra

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humblemuslim said:
Nice Joke, although if you seriously think this is a contradiction a joke might not be the best way to support this view. :thumbsup:

A joke was for fun not to support a view - there is no ''view'' here really, there is only a fact of complete contradiction.
 
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