Alleged Contradictions

[Blackmarch]

Where it says God hardened Pharoah's heart seems to be an error; God causing someone to do wickedness.

 

[humblemuslim]

A joke was for fun not to support a view - there is no ''view'' here really, there is only a fact of complete contradiction.

I don't think it as factual as you claim it to be, but you are entitled to your opinion. Even if you proclaimed the earth was flat as a fact, be my guest

 

[humblemuslim]

It took me a couple of minutes to see there are three different translations here.For the sake of convenience,I settled on PICKTHAL.No special reason,one seems as good as the other.
As a seperate point,why are so many different translations needed?
I noticed a couple of other things I would like to address.Am I correct in assuming Surah translates to chapter?

Sorry about the multiple translations, I tend to do it by habit because often times people that I've encountered on other forums cite somewhat strange translations that use misleading words (Basically this is just a habit )

I'll just use one translation from here on out unless otherwise needed to show a point (i.e. Usually misleading words).

Also you are correct, Surah = Chapter

In Surah 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in six days.
25:29HeWho created the heavens and earth ,and all that is inbetween,in Six Days.However,in 41:9,41:10,and 41:12,the creation takes eight days.

Excellent question. I'll address the six days or eight days question first.

(I'll just use pickthal translation on everything)

11:7
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. Yet if thou (O Muhammad) sayest: Lo! ye will be raised again after death! those who disbelieve will surely say: This is naught but mere magic.

25:59 (Small correction it is actual verse 59 not 29)
PICKTHAL: Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six Days, then He mounted the Throne. The Beneficent! Ask anyone informed concerning Him!

Obviously by these two verses the process took 6 days(i.e. 6 Periods of time)

041.009
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.

Now this verse specifically tells us that the creation of the earth took 2 days (i.e. 2 periods of time out of the 6)


041.010
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

This is the verse that seems to cause the problem. But what seems to be a problem really isn't. The four days mentioned here overlap the 2 days for the creation of the earth. Basically all this verse is saying is it took 4 days (4 periods) for the earth to be created and also for the features to form on the earth. The total time for the completed earth was 4 days. The only reason this time is given as an overlap is because the features of the earth are essentialy still "Creating the earth" as we know it (With mountains and everything). That's why the completion of the heavens is listed seperately, it is a seperate entity from the earth. So basically it took 2 extra periods after the intial creation of the earth to complete its features. (Therefore the features of the earth take 2 periods of the 6)


041.011
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

041.012
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.


Finally the completion of the heavens took two days (i.e. The final two periods out of the six)

Therefore 2 days for basis creation of earth + 2 days for creation of features of earth + 2 days for completion of the heavens = 6 days

What are these seven heavens and what is their purpose?

In short, no one is 100% certain. It has been suggested the heavens are the layers of the atmosphere. Others have suggested it is the 7 layers of the earth's surface. Some even the contients. Honestly I think these interpertations are more favorable to this verse instead:

65:12
PICKTHAL: Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge.


So basically no one exactly knows what the "7 heavens" is referring to, although some have conjectured it refers to 7 universes. So really the answer to this question isn't known for certain.

I'm looking forward to a peaceful,civil discussion here.Thanx for replying.

I appreciate your kind tone. Looking forward to more questions.

 

[humblemuslim]

Where it says God hardened Pharoah's heart seems to be an error; God causing someone to do wickedness.

Could you please cite the verse? If you're not sure which one I'm sure I can locate it, but you'll have to wait alittle bit for a response.

 

[Blackmarch]

KJV The account where moses is trying to get Pharoah to let the Israelites go, Think that is exodus. One will have to look up the specific reference....

 

[MachineGod]

Exodus 7:13 - And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.



Exodus 7:14 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.



Exodus 7:22 - And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.



Exodus 8:15 - But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:19 - Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

In context it could be said as the equivalent of me doing something to hack you off. If I told you, you can’t do something, it may make you more determined (harden your heart) to show me otherwise.

 

[MachineGod]

Yet, as far as causing stuff...

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[peaceful soul]

Yet, as far as causing stuff...

Isaiah 45:7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I believe that you are thinking of moral evil. God does not ceate moral evil. It is a result of sin that moral evil exists and it is only a trait of man - not God.

However, God does bring about physical evil upon people such as distress, suffering, strife, and destruction. There are tons of examples of this in His relationship with Israel in the OT. He blessed or cursed them depending upon whether they obeyed or disobeyed Him. In the case of disobedience, God warned them before He brought judgement upon them. God allowed Israel to be captured, people killed, etc. because of immorality.

That passage that you quoted from clearly refers to God's sovereignity and authority; so, it is only fitting that God would be exercising His judgement, which relates to immorality - not morality. God brings about or creates evil in those circumstances to bring about justice.

 

[Green Man]

Sorry about the multiple translations, I tend to do it by habit because often times people that I've encountered on other forums cite somewhat strange translations that use misleading words (Basically this is just a habit )

I'll just use one translation from here on out unless otherwise needed to show a point (i.e. Usually misleading words).

Also you are correct, Surah = Chapter





Excellent question. I'll address the six days or eight days question first.

(I'll just use pickthal translation on everything)

11:7
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. Yet if thou (O Muhammad) sayest: Lo! ye will be raised again after death! those who disbelieve will surely say: This is naught but mere magic.

25:59 (Small correction it is actual verse 59 not 29)
PICKTHAL: Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six Days, then He mounted the Throne. The Beneficent! Ask anyone informed concerning Him!

Obviously by this two verses the process took 6 days(i.e. 6 Periods of time)

041.009
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.

Now this verse specifically tells us that the creation of the earth took 2 days (i.e. 2 periods of time out of the 6)


041.010
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

This is the verse the seems to cause the problem. But what seems to be a problem really isn't. The four days mentioned here overlap the 2 days for the creation of the earth. Basically all this verse is saying is it took 4 days (4 periods) for the earth to be created and also for the features to form on the earth. The total time for the completed earth was 4 days. The only reason this time is given as an overlap is because the features of the earth are essentialy still "Creating the earth" as we know it (With mountains and everything). That's why the completion of the heavens is listed seperately, it is a seperate entity from the earth. So basically it took 2 extra periods after the intial creation of the earth to complete its features. (Therefore the features of the earth take 2 periods of the 6)


041.011
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

041.012
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.


Finally the completion of the heavens took two days (i.e. The final two periods out of the six)

Therefore 2 days for basis creation of earth + 2 days for creation of features of earth + 2 days for completion of the heavens = 6 days


Very good explanation.This is one of those situations where the answer is so obvious when I see it that I feel like a complete idiot.I never would have thought of the overlap.





In short, no one is 100% certain. It has been suggested the heavens are the layers of the atmosphere. Others have suggested it is the 7 layers of the earth's surface. Some even the contients. Honestly I think these interpertations are more favorable to this verse instead:

65:12
PICKTHAL: Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge.


So basically no one exactly knows what the "7 heavens" is referring to, although some have conjectured it refers to 7 universes. So really the answer to this question isn't known for certain.

I can accept that.







I appreciate your kind tone. Looking forward to more questions.

Qur'an 67:5 And we have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven(sky) with lamps,and We have made such(Lamps as) missles to drive away Satans...

Qur'an 37:6-8 We have indeed decorated the lower heaven(sky) with beauty(in) the stars,(for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans.So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.

So the stars are nothing but missles?

 

[Green Man]

Why are so many different translations of the Qur'an needed?Allah himself said
Qur'an 44:58 Verily,We have made this Qur'an easy in the tongue,in order that they may give heed.

 

[MachineGod]

I believe that you are thinking of moral evil. God does not ceate moral evil. It is a result of sin that moral evil exists and it is only a trait of man - not God.

However, God does bring about physical evil upon people such as distress, suffering, strife, and destruction. There are tons of examples of this in His relationship with Israel in the OT. He blessed or cursed them depending upon whether they obeyed or disobeyed Him. In the case of disobedience, God warned them before He brought judgement upon them. God allowed Israel to be captured, people killed, etc. because of immorality.

That passage that you quoted from clearly refers to God's sovereignity and authority; so, it is only fitting that God would be exercising His judgement, which relates to immorality - not morality. God brings about or creates evil in those circumstances to bring about justice.

I see I've gotten your attention to be following me in different threads.
Distress, suffering, strife, and destruction caused by someone (or God) can be seen as an immoral act. What you're saying is that God uses evil to punish evil. "Kill the killer", for example, is not justice and down right hypocritical. Do you call it justice when God ordered Israel to kill innocent children?

Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain...[...]...9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. ...[...]...14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Yes, we must not let these evil doers, these women and innocent children, who made Israel sin, be allowed to live....oh, except for the the virgins, you can keep those for yourselves. (hmm...I wonder what they had to do to find out if the young girls were virgins or not).

If you try to justify this...I think you are one sick individual.
Besides...if you believe God is the Creator, then everything that follows is a result of him, he is the cause of everything. The Ultimate accountablity rest with him. Indeed, he creates moral evil, or whatever kind of evil you want to call it.

 

[Electra]

Humblemuslim - if we applied all that you did to explain that contradctions - there would be NO contradictions in the bible, neither.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by MachineGod

I see I've gotten your attention to be following me in different threads.

I thought the same thing. Believe me, it is just coincidence.

Distress, suffering, strife, and destruction caused by someone (or God) can be seen as an immoral act.

Since the judging of our morality is by God, He can not be immoral since He sets the standards. To call God immoral is to insult your creator. Even worse, He has the authority over you to do whatever He wants even if you do not agree. But that is not the way God operates. As I stated earlier, He explains to you 1st what He expects of you before He passes judgment. He gives you time to adjust yourself to comply with Him.

What you're saying is that God uses evil to punish evil. "Kill the killer", for example, is not justice and down right hypocritical. Do you call it justice when God ordered Israel to kill innocent children?

The consequences of sin affect more than just the ones who sinned just in the same manner that the actions or your parents presented challenges for you. I bet you did not complain when something that they did benefited you. On the negative side, when they screw up, you may suffer for their mistakes. That is not fair, but that is reality. It is called cause and effect. Since God judges, would you rather that He give you a lollipop for breaking His laws or rules? In a likewise manner, should we not sentence people to confinement for breaking natural laws? If not, you are asking God not to be just, which is immoral. Whether we like it or not, we as His creation have no input on how He administers His authority. We can only accept His mercy.

God ordered killing in OT for the reason that I have already mentioned - judgment for sins. Everywhere in the Bible that you see God rendering a judgment, it has to do with man's sins. In each case, God informed them of their disobedience and gave them time to repent before He followed through. That is more than just, whether you agree with His means or not. And as I have said, God judged the nations whenever Israel was involved; so it follows that entire nations suffer the consequences of not abiding by God's ordinances. For clarification: when God speaks to individuals only, He judges the individuals separately.

Numbers 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain...[...]...9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. ...[...]...14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. 15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Yes, we must not let these evil doers, these women and innocent children, who made Israel sin, be allowed to live....oh, except for the virgins, you can keep those for yourselves. (hmm...I wonder what they had to do to find out if the young girls were virgins or not).

Do you know why it was important to know if they were virgins? It is easy to make conclusions without understanding of the circumstances. Have you ever read the surrounding context to find out what the Midianites did and why? It would help you to read the preceding chapters to know.

If you try to justify this...I think you are one sick individual.

I appreciate your kindness anyway. I will not justify God’s dealings. I will let Him take care of that. Actually you are showing your own conviction by God in your displeasure of those verses. As gross as it seems, your and my offenses deserve worse – death; but God has mercy upon us and gives us chances to be reconciled to Him.

Besides...if you believe God is the Creator, then everything that follows is a result of him, he is the cause of everything. The Ultimate accountablity rest with him. Indeed, he creates moral evil, or whatever kind of evil you want to call it.

OK. If that is true, then God created the Atomic bomb and told Hitler to kill. Reality is that man is a contributor to life’s outcomes. Although God controls the orbit, man influences that orbit by his actions or lack of actions based upon God’s standards. We were not made to be robots; so, God is not ultimately responsible for what we do. He is responsible for correcting us and judging us according to His Word. Man devises evil and God judges Him with His own medicine. That is just. Finite free will is given to all of us and we either choose good or evil. Sin has consequences on more than just the person that commits it. In most cases, we can only see the immediate effects. Who knows what that action did to someone far removed from it.

You have to understand what sin is and its consequences before you can come to understand what I mean, I guess. There are consequences of disobeying God. Man, by nature, man is evil/wicked - no exceptions. Even the best mannered person has sin in Him. The proof can be easily seen when that person is put in circumstances hostile to his or her desires. You can see even the most kind, behaved person will expose that overt nature.

In OT, God used means of judgment according to the set times. Israel was a nation and God judged them accordingly. What befell on the nation befell everyone. What God required per individual was judged individually. It is easy to look at the situation and say that was not fair, but God knows the evil of man a lot better than you do. He is wise in how he does things. You, of finite knowledge and understanding, can not comprehend these things. All that you can do is study the scriptures that He has left you and try to understand things from those. You or I are in no position to tell God how to run His universe.

 

[humblemuslim]

Humblemuslim - if we applied all that you did to explain that contradctions - there would be NO contradictions in the bible, neither.

You'll have to explain this. If what you are telling me is that there are alleged contradictions similar to this in the Bible that can be cleared up, then yes. But I fail to see why this is such a big deal.

I didn't just make up random things in order to clear this alleged contradiction. I took what is there and explained and also took some information regarding the actual meanings of some of the key words. Is there a problem with this?

 

[humblemuslim]

Why are so many different translations of the Qur'an needed?Allah himself said
Qur'an 44:58 Verily,We have made this Qur'an easy in the tongue,in order that they may give heed.

Anything translated will not be a 100% perfect representation of the original. If you've ever taken another language in school this should become obvious early on. Several translations are more or less required for those who are unable to read the arabic. Sometimes a certain english word is greatly misleading to what the arabic word means under a certain context, therefore looking at several translations you can see a pattern in the words used in translation of the arabic word and often times this is enough to get enough of a grasp on the meaning without having to read the arabic.

Anyways 44:58 has nothing to do with translations. The Qur'an is easily read (Now obviously if you don't know arabic you can't read the original, but the translations are easy to read as well. Just on occassion certain translated words convey a meaning other than what the arabic word would). Translations are just that, translations. Really the translations aren't the real thing, but rather a close representation of it. Because you must consider a translator can choose any number of words in the english language (Or whatever language) when translating an arabic word. They choose the translated words, not God.

With all that said, it doesn't mean that the translations are worthless, but because they are translations you have to be careful when you read a contraversal verse relating to contraversal words. These verses are best examined in the arabic original.

 

[Green Man]

I see

 

[Green Man]

In 67:5 And We have (from of old)adorned the lowest heaven(sky)with lamps,and We have made such(Lamps as)missles to drive away satans.

The stars are nothing more than projectiles?

 

[humblemuslim]

Qur'an 67:5 And we have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven(sky) with lamps,and We have made such(Lamps as) missles to drive away Satans...

Qur'an 37:6-8 We have indeed decorated the lower heaven(sky) with beauty(in) the stars,(for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans.So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.

So the stars are nothing but missles?

This is actually one of those times where several translations help:

067.005
YUSUFALI: And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
PICKTHAL: And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.
SHAKIR: And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

All these translations seem relatively about the same in message (Except Yusufali seems to have an added portion being "to drive away") For a more literal translation there is this one:


And We adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and made them things to stone Satans; and We have prepared for them the chastisement of the Blaze.


First thing to note : Satans dosen't refer to Satan (The Devil, otherwise called Iblis). Nor does it refer to the Jinn exclusively. Infact a "Shaitan" or satan is merely an evil person (Be this person Jinn, human, or something else).

Secondly this is an alleged external contradiction. In general these contradictions are much more difficult to examine, prove, or even disprove. For instance, no one knows for certain what the "Heavens" are, so how then can we really analyize it for accuracy? You can't unless you assume what it refers to. The same is true for this alleged external contradiction. First we must ask "What are the lamps??" Of the various translations of 37:6 it seems they are the stars (And maybe even the planets). So far everything is ok, as when it is night you can look through a telescope and see the stars and sometimes even planets (Stars obviously can be viewed by the naked human eye).

037.006
YUSUFALI: We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-
PICKTHAL: Lo! We have adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets;
SHAKIR: Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars,

037.007
YUSUFALI: (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,

Here multiple translated aren't needed, these "Lamps" are for beauty and for protection against evil persons.


037.008
YUSUFALI: (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
PICKTHAL: They cannot listen to the Highest Chiefs for they are pelted from every side,
SHAKIR: They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side,

Finally this talks about the "Missiles/Throwing Stones" portion. Obviously the english word "Missile" isn't very helpful with regard to understanding the verse. By 37:8 that these "Missiles or Stones" aren't literal things being thrown at the evil persons, but rather misleading information being purposely put there for them. The reason why "Throwing" is being used (I Believe) is because stars and planets are moving through place, they aren't just sitting still. In addition this could be referring to not only planets and stars, but maybe even metors/"shooting stars".



So you wonder why would stars/planets/metors/etc. be misleading to evil persons? What could they possiblely be telling someone? Here is what one source had to say on this topic:

What is meant by these verses? Marmaduke Pickthall writes, in a short comment on 67:5 in his translation of the Qur'an:

On the authority of a tradition going back to Ibn `Abbas, the allusion is to the soothsayers and astrologers who saw the source of good and evil in the stars.

​

Muhammad Asad's commentary on 67:5, in his translation and commentary to the Qur'an, reports that Baydawi also said that the allusion here is to astrologers, who are here denoted as "Satanic" due to their misguidance in trying to foretell the future.

Given this information, a clear understanding presents itself. Astrologers and soothsayers observe celestial phenomena, such as the positions of the planets and stars in the sky, and occurrences such as meteors (or "shooting stars"), in order to try to foretell the future. However, the Qur'an replies to them, saying that these people are "Satanic." It furthermore says (in 67:5) that, rather than being a source of guidance for them, these celestial phenomena are there to "stone" them. This means, their misuse of celestial phenomena, and misguidance, will be a source of punishment for them on that Day when all will be held to account.

The other verses say that the heavens are made "secure" from these "Satanic" astrologers and soothsayers. Regarding this, Muhammad Asad, in his commentary on 15:17, writes:

The statement that God has made the heavens "secure" against such satanic forces obviously implies that He has made it impossible for the latter to obtain, through astrology or what is popularly described as "occult sciences," any real knowledge of "that which is beyond the reach of human perception" (al-ghayb).

​

This is but one possible explaination. This being an external contradiction means that the true meaning might not be 100% certainly known. For instance if God hypothetical sent down a Book revealing correct information regarding the universe to people of the past, would make the people of that time either do one of two things: Reconsider their belief in science at the time OR reject the Book and claim it to be false due to external contradiction compared to their current belief. Yet if someone believed the Book to be from God, they would have to admit they honestly are not sure what it means nor do they necessarily have any way of proving it true, but they could make an conjecture as to the meaning. I'd have to say this Missle situation involves both inadequate understanding, even though the understanding might be correct it isn't certain, and also possibly ignorance about the topic, obviously humans aren't entirely too knowledgable about the vast universe.

 

[humblemuslim]

In 67:5 And We have (from of old)adorned the lowest heaven(sky)with lamps,and We have made such(Lamps as)missles to drive away satans.

The stars are nothing more than projectiles?

I must be going, and I've already answered this above (Although I realize you didn't read it before posting because you posted while I was in the process of composition ). Yet I would like to make a closing comment on stars being projectiles.


Would you not agree that planets, stars, etc. move through space? They are in essence protectiles, just not in the classical sense.


I'll be back later tonight.

Bye

Peace

 

[vajradhara]

i've always found the description of mountains and what they do to be completely contradictory to our understanding of mountains.