Allah same as our God?

[Bulldog]

Okay. Thanks and my apologies.

 

[PaladinValer]

Perhaps it is not needed. I am not so egotistic to assume all my posts are stated clearly; so I have no doubt a part of it was myself as well.

 

[mrcrow]

or, when is a rose not a rose?

when it has risen...

 

[e=mv^2]

[size=+1] Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)[/size] [size=+1] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. (John 15:24) [/size]

​

Muslims have not the Son - they have not the Father. Period. The End.

Again - Muslims do not have God. If you say that they do then you are saying that 2Jhn1:9 is false.

 

[PaladinValer]

Muslims have not the Son - they have not the Father. Period. The End.

Again - Muslims do not have God. If you say that they do then you are saying that 2Jhn1:9 is false.

And nor did the Jews, so Jesus worshipped a false God, Marcionism is right, and Christianity is a load of hogwash.

Logic people. Use some logic.

 

[Blackhawk]

This is Marcionism.

no it is not. I never said that the God of the Ot was different than the God of the Nt. That is what Marcion and the gnostics believed. I just stated that the jews strayed away from God. They did not worship the one and only God of both the OT and the Nt.

Look at these verses.

John 8
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
The Children of Abraham



31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[b] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[c]"

39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." The Children of the Devil



42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
See Jesus stated the same thing about the Jews. They did not worship the opne and only true God or they would of known who Jesus truly was.

Marcionism and illogical. I see the sky is blue; my colorblind friend sees the sky as grey. Is it not still the same sky?

In addition, if the God of the OT isn't the same as the NT, then Christianity is false, since Jesus was worshiping a false god.

I never said that the God of the OT and the God of the NT were different. What I stated was that the god of Judaism is not the God of the Bible. the Bible nowhere teaches Judaism.

 

[PaladinValer]

Yes, that is Marcionism. Just because the Jews didn't follow Jesus doesn't mean they no longer worship the same God.

 

[Blackhawk]

And nor did the Jews, so Jesus worshipped a false God, Marcionism is right, and Christianity is a load of hogwash.

Logic people. Use some logic.

Ummm. Jesus worshipped God the FAther and He was (and is) God the Son so I think you need to use some logic. Jesus never worshipped a God that was not a Triune being.

 

[Blackhawk]

It is very simple.

They worship the same deity; only one worships in all Truth. Just because the other two don't doesn't mean they worship the same deity.

Unless, of course, the Marcionist heresy, which is sadly prevelant in this thread, is truth and Christianity a lie...

But how can one worship the God of the Bible and not worship Jesus? Neither Muslims nor Jews believe that Jesus is God. So how can they be stated to believe and worship the same God as Christians? I think the Bible is clear that they do not. That they are idolatrous. Look at when the jews in the Ot strayed away from worshipping God correctly. What was their sin? Idolatry. God did not state that they were worshipping him but just not in complete truth. What he said was that they were worshippiong other Gods. in Jeremiah it is stated that they made for themselves other cisterns. Ones that could not hold any water. another words they replaced the God of the Bible with another one that had no power. I think it would be interesting for you to reread some of the Prophets and how they treated Israel's unbelief and idolatry.
BH

 

[Blackhawk]

Yes, that is Marcionism. Just because the Jews didn't follow Jesus doesn't mean they no longer worship the same God.

So was Jesus wrong? How do you explain what he said to the pharisees?

Look at another part of John 8. Should this passage be thrown out of the Bible? Was Jesus wrong? Did they really know the Father but were just not worshipping him in full truth?
John 8

12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."



13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins."

25"Who are you?" they asked. "Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

 

[Blackhawk]

Yes, that is Marcionism.

Can you give me any proof of this? Even if I stated the God of the Ot is not the same God as the God of the NT that would not mean necessarily that I am a Marcionite. I could be just a Jew. Give your proof. Some historical proof and some historical evidence on Marcion's teaching would be helpful.

Edit: I am being very firm on this because you are stating that I am a heretic. I do not take this sort of thing lightly. So give me proof!

 

[AliOgg]

Marcion's teaching

Who was Marcion please?

And God Bless All His Peoples.

 

[MbiaJc]

Ok. Prolly got your attention here. Ok. Trace back when it was the jews around. I dont know the details, but this is biblical. Somewhere along the line the jews get split up and the arabs came to be. So the arabs would keep the same jaweh. So... they develope their own lil life style... So since the Jewish's God is our God, would that make the Allah the same?

NO!

 

[PaladinValer]

Proof?:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm (from a Vatican Catholic source)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism (from a neutral source)
http://demo.lutherproductions.com/historytutor/basic/early/stories/marcionitism.htm (from a Lutheran source)
http://www.datarat.net/DR/Lex-M.html (from a Calvinist source)
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/heresies.stm#M (from a Methodist source)
http://www.orthodox.clara.net/canon.htm (from an Eastern Orthodox source)

 

[Blackhawk]

Okay you gave some historical resources. That was good. But you negelected to show where and when I stated I believe what they believe or why I am one. But let's look at the intorudction of the first article you gave me. It seems to be an introduction to his thought. Let's see if I believe what you claim I do.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm (from a Vatican Catholic source)

Heretical sect founded in A.D. 144 at Rome by Marcion and continuing in the West for 300 years, but in the East some centuries longer, especially outside the Byzantine Empire. They rejected the writings of the Old Testament

Where and when have I done this? I have not but in fact stated that the OT is scripture just as the NT is. SO strike one.

and taught that Christ was not the Son of the God of the Jews, but the Son of the good God, who was different from the God of the Ancient Covenant.

Where have I done this? I have neve said that the God of the OT was different than the God of the NT. Nor do I reject that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Now I did say that the Jewish people rejected God and that Juaism is not the religion of the Jews of the Ot. AT least not the correct religion. But I have always stated that the one and only God of both NT and OT was the God of ABraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He was the one that came to Moses in the burning bush. He was also the one that made a promise to King David and who gave revelation to the prophets. So the God of the ancient or OLD COVENANT is the same God as the God of the Modern or New Covenant. Strike Two

They anticipated the more consistent dualism of Manichaeism and were finally absorbed by it. As they arose in the very infancy of Christianity and adopted from the beginning a strong ecclesiastical organization, parallel to that of the Catholic Church, they were perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known.

I am not a dualist. I do not think flesh (in the literal sense) is evil. Also I am not against the CAtholic church. I work within the Orthodox church to bring about the glory of God. Strike Three.

So you can see that your claim about me is nonsense.

Proof?:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09645c.htm (from a Vatican Catholic source)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism (from a neutral source)
http://demo.lutherproductions.com/historytutor/basic/early/stories/marcionitism.htm (from a Lutheran source)
http://www.datarat.net/DR/Lex-M.html (from a Calvinist source)
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/heresies.stm#M (from a Methodist source)
http://www.orthodox.clara.net/canon.htm (from an Eastern Orthodox source)

 

[PaladinValer]

But how can one worship the God of the Bible and not worship Jesus? Neither Muslims nor Jews believe that Jesus is God. So how can they be stated to believe and worship the same God as Christians? I think the Bible is clear that they do not.

((From a previous post))

This implies Marcionism.

The Jews still worship YHVH. YHVH is the Father, and is just as much God as the other Three Persons. Just because they don't reocgnize the other two Persons does not mean they don't worship the same God.

Quite frankly, they never did recognize those Two, only YHVH. So that would imply, by your argument, they never worshiped the right God to begin with.

Which means that the God of the NT would have to be different from the OT. It would have to, logically speaking, otherwise Jesus would be the son of a false deity (or at the very least that of a lesser one).

And this is Marcionism.

In addition, just because you don't fit all of what Marcion taught doesn't mean holding to parts isn't as bad, especially if the part is the basis of the whole. The basis of his thought was that the God of the OT isn't the God of the NT. I've shown above how his argument went.

Lastly, and I will give it one last time, just because two people worship a deity in two different ways doesn't mean they worship a different God. The "Catholics" (Anglicans, Vatican Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc) worship God quite differently than "Protestants." Does that mean only one group worships God? Or does that mean the method of worship doesn't equate to a worship of a deity?

Unless you believe Protestants worship God and Catholics don't (or visa versa), then the second option is the only one that makes sense.

 

[Blackhawk]

[/font]

((From a previous post))

This implies Marcionism.

The Jews still worship YHVH. YHVH is the Father, and is just as much God as the other Three Persons. Just because they don't reocgnize the other two Persons does not mean they don't worship the same God.

Quite frankly, they never did recognize those Two, only YHVH. So that would imply, by your argument, they never worshiped the right God to begin with. Which means that the God of the NT would have to be different from the OT. It would have to, logically speaking, otherwise Jesus would be the son of a false deity (or at the very least that of a lesser one).

And this is Marcionism.

Your argument fails because the full Trinity was not revealed in the OT. But, as Jesus said, once he was revealed to be God incarnate one must believe in him. See they could not recognize God when he waw walking among them. Thus they did not know God in the first place.

Look at John 8 again. I willn ot quote the whole chapter again but here are some major points.

19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

39"Abraham is our father," they answered.


"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

See Jesus stated that if you do not know him then you do not know the FAther. If you do not worship Jesus you are not worshipping the FAther. If we look at the end of the chapter ABraham was looking towards this day. The day had not been fullfilled yet. So he did not fully understand who Jesus was or who he would be. But he was looking towards that day and he would of recognized God incarante if God incarante was walking around with him and talking to him. See once God the Son was revealed then the Jews had to believe in Him fully. If not then it was shown that they really did not know God the Father in the 1st place.

Now I am not saying anytihng about ABraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, DAvid, Etc. Because they would of believed in Jesus Christ. Tjhey worshipped the True God and thus would of recognized Jesus as God.

In addition, just because you don't fit all of what Marcion taught doesn't mean holding to parts isn't as bad, especially if the part is the basis of the whole. The basis of his thought was that the God of the OT isn't the God of the NT. I've shown above how his argument went.

Okay but I demonstrated that I do not believe in any of the heretical points that Marcion taught. None. Not just some. I do not believe the God of the OT is different than the God of the NT. I believe that the Jews did (as a whole) fell away from the true God and by Jesus' day did not worship the true God. I also have stated that present day Judaism does not worship the same god as Christianity because they deny the Son. The ones who truly worshipped the OT God would not reject Jesus CHrist if he had been revealed to them.

Lastly, and I will give it one last time, just because two people worship a deity in two different ways doesn't mean they worship a different God. The "Catholics" (Anglicans, Vatican Catholics, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc) worship God quite differently than "Protestants." Does that mean only one group worships God? Or does that mean the method of worship doesn't equate to a worship of a deity?

Unless you believe Protestants worship God and Catholics don't (or visa versa), then the second option is the only one that makes sense.

Let me put it in a different way. Let's say that 3 people are describing George Bush.

Person 1 states that he is Preseidnt of the U.S.. He is a white male and is a conservative republican.

Person 2 states that he is President of the U.S.. He is a white male and is a moderate conservative republican.

Person 3 states he is President of Houston Hardware. He is a black female and is a liberal democrat.

Now clearly person 1 and 2 are speaking about the same person but person 3 is not.

Think of Person's 1 and 2 as orthodox Christians of different denominations while person 3 as a Jew or Muslim. The name might be the same but clearly there are too many irreconcilible differences between Muslims, Jews, and Christians to state that they all worship the same God. However this is not the case between an Orthodox believer and a Southern Baptist. We have much in common. The differences that we do have between us do not make either one of us unorthodox or Hereitcs.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The non-christian religions board is being overun by Muslims but then I guess that is what the board is for LOL.
Are Christians Muslims or are Muslims Christians

http://www.christianforums.com/f76-non-christian-religion.html

http://www.christianforums.com/t5753365-christians-are-muslims.html

Christians are Muslims.


Why is it that most Christians don't realize that Christ is a submitter(Muslim) to his father?

Jesus Christ said he was in complete submission to God and yet Christians do not understand that they worship the same God that Jesus worships.

 

[MbiaJc]

Ok. Prolly got your attention here. Ok. Trace back when it was the jews around. I dont know the details, but this is biblical. Somewhere along the line the jews get split up and the arabs came to be. So the arabs would keep the same jaweh. So... they develope their own lil life style... So since the Jewish's God is our God, would that make the Allah the same?

Islam is not a religion, it is a cult!

It is in no way to be compaired to Christanity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Islam is not a religion, it is a cult!

It is in no way to be compaired to Christanity.

Would you also call Talmudic "Judaism" a cult in the same sense?