All You Want To Know About Eternal Torment

[FineLinen]

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[Pneuma3]

Is it not strange brother that people beleive some will have eternal life and that eternal life is found in seperation from God.

And here all along I thought eternal life was only found IN HIM.

 

[C.O.Ioves]

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[EchoPneuma]

Why is there no mention in the entire OT of the Lake of Fire or hell?

Why did Paul never ONCE mention hell or the Lake of Fire in ANY of his writings to the Gentile churches?

Are we to believe that ALL the OT writers left this most important spiritual truth out of their writings? Even when they speak volumes about God's judgement, wrath and condemnation?

Are we to believe that Paul, the ONLY apostle to the Gentiles, left this most important spiritual truth completely out of his writings even though he speaks much about God's chastisment and judgement?

Or can we surmise that SINCE none of the OT writers mention it and SINCE Paul never mentions it that just PERHAPS it wasn't that important and it's NOT what many people think it is.

I tend to think that since the LOF and "gehenna" was spoken of by Jesus when talking to the Jews, but NOT spoken of by Paul when speaking to any of the Gentiles....that the LOF and "gehenna" was something that was ONLY a threat to the Jews. It was something God used to deal with His apostate people and had NOTHING to do with Gentiles.

 

[C.O.Ioves]

Logical Fallacies.

Argument From Ignorance( argumentum ad ignorantiam )

Definition: Arguments of this form assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an
argument may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is therefore false. (This is a special case of a false dilemma, since it assumes that all propositions must either be known to be true or known to be false.)

argument from silence

The argument from silence (also called argumentum a silentio in Latin) is that the silence of a speaker or writer about X proves or suggests that the speaker or writer is ignorant of X. Whether such an argument is reasonable is subject to some interpretation or debate -- in general, the argument from silence does not offer a rigorous logical proof of a premise, although it may potentially offer some circumstantial evidence for a position.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Logical Fallacies.

Argument From Ignorance( argumentum ad ignorantiam )

Definition: Arguments of this form assume that since something has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an
argument may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is therefore false. (This is a special case of a false dilemma, since it assumes that all propositions must either be known to be true or known to be false.)

argument from silence

The argument from silence (also called argumentum a silentio in Latin) is that the silence of a speaker or writer about X proves or suggests that the speaker or writer is ignorant of X. Whether such an argument is reasonable is subject to some interpretation or debate -- in general, the argument from silence does not offer a rigorous logical proof of a premise, although it may potentially offer some circumstantial evidence for a position.

Oh poppycock on your "logical fallacies". It's a perfectly legitimate observation to see that neither the OT prophets NOR Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles ever even MENTION this supposedly IMPORTANT ETERNAL DOCTRINE OF THE DESTINY OF ALL THE LOST.

You bet it's an argument from SILENCE. They were SILENT because there was NOTHING TO SAY.

For you to postulate an argument that even though this was one of the most important spiritual truths that God ever revealed to man, one that defined the eternal destiny of all of humanity, that Paul nevertheless failed to even MENTION it to ANY of the Gentile churches is the logical fallacy. It's absolutely ludicrous.

What? Did God just not want any of the Gentile churches to KNOW that if they died without Christ that they would spend ETERNITY IN TORMENT??? He didn't feel it was anything they needed to know? Did God not want ANY of the OT Israelites to know it?

Fallacy indeed.....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

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Search=Hell= KJV

hell occurs 54 times in 54 verses: Page 1, verses 1 - 25

Search=Hell= Greek/Hebrew MSS

hell occurs 0 times in 0 verses: Page 1, verses 1 - 25

LUKE 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'"

Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

 

[C.O.Ioves]

Oh poppycock on your "logical fallacies". It's a perfectly legitimate observation to see that neither the OT prophets NOR Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles ever even MENTION this supposedly IMPORTANT ETERNAL DOCTRINE OF THE DESTINY OF ALL THE LOST.

You bet it's an argument from SILENCE. They were SILENT because there was NOTHING TO SAY.

For you to postulate an argument that even though this was one of the most important spiritual truths that God ever revealed to man, one that defined the eternal destiny of all of humanity, that Paul nevertheless failed to even MENTION it to ANY of the Gentile churches is the logical fallacy. It's absolutely ludicrous.

What? Did God just not want any of the Gentile churches to KNOW that if they died without Christ that they would spend ETERNITY IN TORMENT??? He didn't feel it was anything they needed to know? Did God not want ANY of the OT Israelites to know it?
================================================================

A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy whether you think so or not, whether you like it or not.

The proper reply is to rephrase your post so that it is not a logical fallacy. You might do this by presenting evidence that supports your view, if any exists.

Didn't Jesus quote from Isaiah, something about worms not dying and fire not being quenched? What is that all about? What did the Isrealites think that meant? Wasn't Jesus and his audience Israelites?

What do you think the Israelites believed about eternal torment, eternal hell, etc., and why?

Didn't the Gentiles have the other writings in the New Test., Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter? It seems they did, Peter mentions Paul, Paul mentions John and James.

Your emotional outbursts do not change the fact that you post was a logical fallacy. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[FineLinen]

What do you think the Israelites believed about eternal torment, eternal hell, etc., and why?

C.O.: There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of eternal hell or eternal torment etc. In fact, hell along with death is consummated in the Lake of Theos!

What the Jews Believe

Gehenna=

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G&search=gehenna

 

[FineLinen]

Important Facts

Gehenna was a well-known locality near Jerusalem, and ought no more to be translated Hell, than should Sodom or Gomorrah. See Josh. 15:8; II Kings 17:10; II Chron. 28:3; Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:2.

Gehenna is never employed in the Old Testament to mean anything else than the place with which every Jew was familiar.

The word should have been left untranslated as it is in some versions, and it would not be misunderstood. It was not misunderstood by the Jews to whom Jesus addressed it. Walter Balfour well says:

Quote:

What meaning would the Jews who were familiar with this word, and knew it to signify the valley of Hinnom, be likely to attach to it when they heard it used by our Lord? Would they, contrary to all former usage, transfer its meaning from a place with whose locality and history they had been familiar from their infancy, to a place of misery in another world? This conclusion is certainly inadmissible. By what rule of interpretation, then, can we arrive at the conclusion that this word means a place of misery and death?

The French Bible, the Emphatic Diaglott, Improved Version, Wakefield's Translation and Newcomb's retain the proper noun, Gehenna, the name of a place as well-known as Babylon.

Fact

Gehenna is never mentioned in the Apocrypha as a place of future punishment as it would have been had such been its meaning before and at the time of Christ.

Fact

No Jewish writer, such as Josephus or Philo, ever uses it as the name of a place of future punishment, as they would have done had such then been its meaning.

Fact

No classic Greek author ever alludes to it and therefore it was a Jewish locality, purely.

The first Jewish writer who ever names it as a place of future punishment is Jonathan Ben Uzziel who wrote, according to various authorities, from the second to the eighth century, A. D.

The first Christian writer who calls Hell Gehenna is Justin Martyr who wrote about A. D. 150.

Fact

Neither Christ nor his apostles ever named it to Gentiles, but only to Jews which proves it a locality only known to Jews, whereas, if it were a place of punishment after death for sinners, it would have been preached to Gentiles as well as Jews.

It was only referred to twelve times on eight occasions in all the ministry of Christ and the apostles, and in the Gospels and Epistles. Were they faithful to their mission to say no more than this on so vital a theme as an endless Hell, if they intended to teach it?

Fact

Only Jesus and James ever named it. Neither Paul, John, Peter nor Jude ever employ it. Would they not have warned sinners concerning it, if there were a Gehenna of torment after death?
Paul says he "shunned not to declare the whole counsel of God," and yet though he was the great preacher of the Gospel to the Gentiles he never told them that Gehenna is a place of after-death punishment. Would he not have repeatedly warned sinners against it were there such a place?

Dr. Thayer significantly remarks:

Quote:

The Savior and James are the only persons in all the New Testament who use the word. John the Baptist, who preached to the most wicked of men did not use it once. Paul wrote fourteen epistles and yet never once mentions it. Peter does not name it, nor Jude; and John, who wrote the gospel, three epistles, and the Book of Revelations, never employs it in a single instance. Now if Gehenna or Hell really reveals the terrible fact of endless woe, how can we account for this strange silence? How is it possible, if they knew its meaning and believed it a part of Christ's teaching that they should not have used it a hundred or a thousand times, instead of never using it at all; especially when we consider the infinite interests involved? The Book of Acts contains the record of the apostolic preaching, and the history of the first planting of the church among the Jews and Gentiles, and embraces a period of thirty years from the ascension of Christ. In all this history, in all this preaching of the disciples and apostles of Jesus there is no mention of Gehenna. In thirty years of missionary effort these men of God, addressing people of all characters and nations never under any circumstances threaten them with the torments of Gehenna or allude to it in the most distant manner! In the face of such a fact as this can any man believe that Gehenna signifies endless punishment and that this is part of divine revelation, a part of the Gospel message to the world? These considerations show how impossible it is to establish the doctrine in review on the word Gehenna. All the facts are against the supposition that the term was used by Christ or his disciples in the sense of endless punishment. There is not the least hint of any such meaning attached to it, nor the slightest preparatory notice that any such new revelation was to be looked for in this old familiar word.

Jesus never uttered it to unbelieving Jews, nor to anybody but his disciples, but twice (Matt. 23:15-33) during his entire ministry, nor but four times in all. If it were the final abode of unhappy millions, would not his warnings abound with exhortations to avoid it?

Jesus never warned unbelievers against it but once in all his ministry (Matt. 23:33) and he immediately explained it as about to come in this life.

Fact

If Gehenna is the name of Hell then men's bodies are burned there as well as their souls. Matt. 5:29; 18:9.

If it be the name of endless torment, then literal fire is the sinner's punishment. Mark 9:43-48.

Salvation is never said to be from Gehenna.

Gehenna is never said to be of endless duration nor spoken of as destined to last forever, so that even admitting the popular ideas of its existence after death it gives no support to the idea of endless torment.

Clement, a Universalist, used Gehenna to describe his ideas of punishment. He was one of the earliest of the Christian Fathers. The word did not then denote endless punishment.

A shameful death or severe punishment in this life was at the time of Christ denominated Gehenna (Schleusner, Canon Farrar and others), and there is no evidence that Gehenna meant anything else at the time of Christ.

LINK

The Bible Hell

Opinions Of Scholars

Gehenna Located In This World

Jewish Views of Gehenna

Important Facts

Cast Into Hell-Fire

The Undying Worm

Destroy Soul & Body In Hell

The Child Of Hell

The Damnation Of Hell

Set On Fire Of Hell

HERE

Let's Hear From The Jews!

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp

Gehenna=

[URL="http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G&search=Gehenna"]http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G&search=Gehenna[/URL]

 

[FineLinen]

Is it not strange brother that people beleive some will have eternal life and that eternal life is found in seperation from God.

And here all along I thought eternal life was only found IN HIM.

Hi there Pneuma. I am convinced there is no intelligent life on this planet. We have been some of the most blinded of individuals until the Lord of Glory came down our dusty road. Why, even the disciples of the Lord attempted to still that poor blind beggar. And with each attempt, he cried all the louder, Jesus Son of David have mercy upon me! Thank God He still opens the eyes of blind beggars!

There is no life outside of the Glory One, who alone is eternal! I had a little laddy disclose to me on a post the other day, that there is a place where the presence of God is not. Now is that an interesting concept or what?

Dear God: Please be advised that You are not omnipresent!

 

[EchoPneuma]

Yes, Finelinen.....that God is so often put in a box of doctrinal error is indeed sad.

But it is ever comforting to know that just because man doesn't think God is going to accomplish the salvation of all......doesn't mean He ISN'T going to do it.

He is not bound by the small vision and low expectations of man......to His praise.....

 

[FineLinen]

Yes, Finelinen.....that God is so often put in a box of doctrinal error is indeed sad.

But it is ever comforting to know that just because man doesn't think God is going to accomplish the salvation of all......doesn't mean He ISN'T going to do it.

He is not bound by the small vision and low expectations of man......to His praise.....

EchoPneuma: It is most comforting, and in fact a strong anchor, to know that our salvation is not based on decisions we made, or anything of man's resources. The Godborn are exactly that: not born of the flesh ,nor of the will of man, but of God. Pieces of grass have not contrived this glorious Plan A: that has been laid from the foundations of the world, quite literally in consulation with none other, solely within the Father's own Person. I personally would not want to rest my old frame on anything less!

In point of fact, God did choose to save all people. It is people who choose not accept the salvation that Christ offers to all.

"Those who exalt free choice believe God must operate only within the sphere of our sovereignty." George MacDonald-

Cabinet Maker: In point of fact our Father has purposed within Himself to restore the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ. The scope is quite clear: all within the heavens, all within the earth, and all within the underworld. This summary is to be accomplished in the dispensation of the fulness of times when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess in the Name of Jesus, "You are Lord" to the glory of the Father. It should also be noted that this kampto worship is one of unrestrained celebration and praise, bathed in thankfulness. It is not by rote or perfunctory genuflections, but in exomologeo and homologeo.
The vast majority of mankind have never even heard the Name of all names, and most certainly never known His prevenient drawing.

"We pursue God because, and only because, He has first put an urge within us that spurs us to the pursuit....'No man can come to me unless the Father....draw him.' This prevenient drawing takes from us every vestige of credit for the act of coming." Aiden W. Tozer-

 

[Pneuma3]

Hi there Pneuma. I am convinced there is no intelligent life on this planet. We have been some of the most blinded of individuals until the Lord of Glory came down our dusty road. Why, even the disciples of the Lord attempted to still that poor blind beggar. And with each attempt, he cried all the louder, Jesus Son of David have mercy upon me! Thank God He still opens the eyes of blind beggars!

There is no life outside of the Glory One, who alone is eternal! I had a little laddy disclose to me on a post the other day, that there is a place where the presence of God is not. Now is that an interesting concept or what?

Dear God: Please be advised that You are not omnipresent!

brother it has been awhile.

I can't beleive the lenghts people go to trying to show how weak and unloving our God is.

But try they do.

 

[Jipsah]

Didn't Jesus quote from Isaiah, something about worms not dying and fire not being quenched?

Yep, which indicates that the worms won't die and the fire won't be quenched. He also spoke of fearing Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell. Hell will still be around, apparently, and still be unpleasant, but it also appears that those who end up there are destroyed.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Yep, which indicates that the worms won't die and the fire won't be quenched. He also spoke of fearing Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell. Hell will still be around, apparently, and still be unpleasant, but it also appears that those who end up there are destroyed.

Jipsah, have you ever considered that it is just the "old man" that is destroyed, so that the new creature can come forth?

In other words, if we don't crucify the carnal nature NOW, then when we die God will "crucify" it then....it will be destroyed...and a new creature will be born...what they once were is destroyed.

 

[FineLinen]

Yep, which indicates that the worms won't die and the fire won't be quenched. He also spoke of fearing Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell. Hell will still be around, apparently, and still be unpleasant, but it also appears that those who end up there are destroyed.

Evidently death and hell are not consummated in the Lake of Pur/Theos, but abide sovereign alongside of the Sovereign One!

[move]From Him everything comes, through Him everyhing exists, and in Him everything ends. Source, Guide and Goal of all that is, to whom be glory forever. Amen![/move]

 

[FineLinen]

Yep....Hell will still be around, apparently, and still be unpleasant, but it also appears that those who end up there are destroyed.

Jipsah: Is that the same mass of mankind whose lives have been "fitted for destruction/ apoleia/ apollumi"?

Fitted= katartivzw / katartizo=

To render/ to fit/ to complete.

To mend what has been broken or rent. To repair.

To fit out/ To equip.

To put in order. To arrange. To adjust.

To fit or frame for one's self, prepare.

To strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be .

"Whenever judgment comes, it comes on Love's errand, if it comes from God. Here is the spiritual watershed between two theologies. There is the popular theology that says, God loves His enemies, till they die. His love then turns into hate and vengeance. His love is in fact, a question of chronology, or, if one will, of geography, i.e., bounded by this world. And there is the truer theology that teaches with the Bible, that God is love--Love unchanging and eternal in all His ways." - Thomas Allin (Christ Triumphant)