All this for a statue?

[addo]

Hello and may God bless you,

I live in Spain (at the moment) and recently I've seen some ... interesting news on TV (and other sources). It's about the statue of Jesús del Gran Poder, in Sevilla (it's kept in the Basilica del Gran Poder; I don't know the name in English; you can find more information here, here or here). And I want to share with you these ... interesting news.

Unfortunately, I cannot seem to find any sources in English, so I only have them in Spanish. You can see sites like this one or this one which has articles about it. In the rest I'll post videos. Here are some videos on YouTube:
Detenido por arrancarle un brazo al Gran Poder
Agresión a Jesús del Gran Poder
A man came and basically started throwing punches and kicking the statue of Jesus and finally breaking it's arm. The whole arm came down but they repaired it finally. In the next video, at the end, the man says that he is Jesus Christ (Jesucristo, in Spanish), and that's why he did it. Of course he's nuts, but I want to comment on another aspect.
Libertad sin cargos por atacar el Gran Poder
I want to concentrate on the reaction of the crowd. Here you can find the official news on La Sexta|Noticias (News), a Spanish channel.

laSexta|Noticias VIDEO #1 (it should be noted that here is the news exactly like in VIDEO #2, plus some more; just that here you don't have to look for min. 17, which is an advantage)
laSexta|Noticias VIDEO #2 (in this video the whole news is there; it's about 40 minutes; go to minute 17:44 and the news about the statue lasts until 19:25.

What I will talk is about the second video (but on the first video are exactly the same news). The statue has been repaired and people started bringing flowers to it (as you see on the video) and people also came to kiss it's hand. I'll show some quotes of the second video (remember to skip to minute 17:44... by the way, I think I should tell you this: try to drag that white thing to minute 17:44 and not simply click where minute 17:44 is; it won't work and is annoying, so remember to drag it). These are some quotes (from VIDEO #2):

"desde las 6 y media de la mañana van haciendo cola para besar la mano del señor que acaba de recuperar su brazo" (Min 18:10) approximate translation: "from 6:30 a.m. [they] are making queue to kiss the hand of the lord [referring to the statue] that just recovered his arm" Hmmm ... isn't this bizarre? A statue of Jesus lost it's arm and after it recovered (the arm) they are making queue to kiss it's hand! Now seriously ... I have a feeling that this is (terribly) wrong.

"dándole la gracias que no le ha pasado nada y [estoy] muy contenta" (Min. 18:28) approx. transl.: "giving thanks [obviously in prayer] that nothing [bad, in the sense that worse than the arm; now he's fully recovered, and the woman gives thanks that no permanent damage was done] happened to him [the statue of Jesus] and am very happy". Quite strange. The woman was giving thanks (to God obviously) that nothing serious happened to the statue! Isn't this very strange? Why does she care so much about a simple statue? What would have happened if the statue would've burned to ashes? If they did all this for a simple arm (that finally was repaired), what would've happened if the would've been destroyed completely?

"flores, rezos y mucha devoción para el Señor del Gran Poder que ha conseguido recuperarse en tiempo récord" (Min. 18:38) approx. transl.: "flowers, prayers and a lot of devotion for "el Señor del Gran Poder" (a literal translation would be: the Lord of the Great Power, I dunno if that's the correct translation but it is the literal one) which recovered himself in a record time". First note that they bring flowers, pray and are very devoted to a statue (of Jesus Christ). And the last part is that it says the statue recovered itself! In Spanish, in recuperarse, the -se at the end, means, in this case, that you do it do yourself. Anyway, in this case, it basically means that the statue recovered itself (or should I better say that "he recovered himself"?)

(woman crying) "[I don't understand what she's saying in this part]... me da mucha pena que le hagan esto ...porque no le hace daño a nadie..." (Min. 18:50) I don't think a literal translation would be a good idea. What she's saying is that she is very sorry because this happened and she doesn't understand why "because he [the statue] doesn't hurt anybody". First of all ... this woman is crying just because the statue lost its arm! Do you find this normal? And then she says that "he doesn't hurt anybody"? But how can it hurt anyone (physically) in the first place? Again, I just can't understand why is this woman crying just because a statue lost its arm. And this woman is speaking about the statue when she says "he didn't hurt anybody", because she doesn't understand how could he (the attacker) do this to it (the statue) since it didn't "hurt anybody".

"...hoy en besamanos para que los fieles lo puedan sentir más cerca" (Min. 18:10) I don't think a literal translation here would be recommended. What this is saying is that the statue today (when the report was made) is in a place were believers can kiss it's hand so that they "could feel him closer". Now this is obviously wrong. Why would anyone want to kiss the hand of the statue to feel it closer (in case it is referring to the statue)? If it is referring to Jesus, how is kissing the hand of a supposed statue of Him bringing the believer closer to Him? But I'm pretty sure they were referring to the statue.

"... una emoción tan grande que no puedo expresarla con palabras, sino con el corazón" (Min. 19:14) "such a strong emotion that [I dunno who is she referring to, so I don't know who's doing the action, but I believe herself] cannot express it with words, but with the heart" Why is somebody having "such a great emotion" when a statue lost it's arm? Or is it that they don't see it just as a simple statue?

Another important thing you can see in VIDEO #1 there are queues of hundreds and if not thousands of people waiting to see it, bring flowers to it, kissing it, etc.

This statue, in case you didn't know, is seen as "Lord of Sevilla", if I'm not mistaken.
_____________________

Am I the only one who sees this behavior terribly wrong? I mean... people did all this just for a statue? The following statue lost an arm and they did all this just for that?

In my opinion, this just shows that statues mean more to the general (Catholic) believer than we think.

Sorry mods if I put this thread in the wrong place.

 

[Nick T]

I'm not a Catholic myself but I think some of their reactions understandable. As the people there probobly did not know the man in question thought he was Jesus they would have seen an attack on the statue as an attack on Chrsitainity/Jesus (as that's what it represents) just as burning a national flag is considered an attack on the country in question. The thought that someone so vehmenantly hates our Saviour would obviously be distressing to the average spanish christian.

As for the kissing of the statue its the same principle as when people salute a flag; they are not saluting the cloth itself but rather the country it represents. By venerating the statue they are venerating Jesus Christ.

 

[addo]

I'm not a Catholic myself but I think some of their reactions understandable. As the people there probobly did not know the man in question thought he was Jesus they would have seen an attack on the statue as an attack on Chrsitainity/Jesus (as that's what it represents) just as burning a national flag is considered an attack on the country in question. The thought that someone so vehmenantly hates our Saviour would obviously be distressing to the average spanish christian.

As for the kissing of the statue its the same principle as when people salute a flag; they are not saluting the cloth itself but rather the country it represents. By venerating the statue they are venerating Jesus Christ.

So venerating the image of Jesus would be venerating Him, right?

 

[Nick T]

So venerating the image of Jesus would be venerating Him, right?

Yes. Of course many Protestants would disagree but the veneration of icons (images) of Jesus goes back for centuries.

 

[addo]

Yes. Of course many Protestants would disagree but the veneration of icons (images) of Jesus goes back for centuries.

Glad we agree on the first part. Venerating the image of Jesus (whom is God) is venerating Jesus. But the word of God says:

So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.
(Genesis 1:27)
​

and

In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
(Genesis 5:1)
​

Icons (of Jesus) are the image of man because you have no idea of how Jesus really looked like. All we know is that He was a man (1 Timothy 2:5) and that He looked more or less like His disciples, for they could not make the difference between Him and His disciples, or apostles (we see in Matthew 26:48-49 that they needed Judah to show them who is Jesus, for they could not tell). This means He looked like the average man of His day.

But that is it. You know no more. Since you do not know how Jesus looked like what you are drawing is not Jesus, but man, thus you are venerating the image (of the body) of man.

We are the image of God as you've seen in the previous quotes (from Genesis). So why don't you venerate me, or any other Christian from the world, but you venerate an image (of man)?

 

[Nick T]

The important thing is what the image represents not whether it is accurate or not. Its true that we do not know what Jesus looked like but because the image represents Jesus we are venerating Jesus.
The same goes for man. We may be made in the likeness of God but were we made to represent God? Do we represent God? To me the answer to both those questions would be no so I would not venerate a man.

 

[Fireinfolding]

You gotta love how he puts these things

Isaiah 44:13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house. He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

As it pertains to images even in male or female form here...

Duet 4:17 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

And Paul is in agreement as well

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Though, busting down or breaking images is whats shown in the better of in the prophets but cryng over a broken arm of a graven image?

 

[addo]

The important thing is what the image represents not whether it is accurate or not. Its true that we do not know what Jesus looked like but because the image represents Jesus we are venerating Jesus.
The same goes for man. We may be made in the likeness of God but were we made to represent God? Do we represent God? To me the answer to both those questions would be no so I would not venerate a man.

But yet you venerate an image. What is worth more? An image (statue or picture) or a living man for whom Christ died for?

 

[Tyndale]

Yes. Of course many Protestants would disagree but the veneration of icons (images) of Jesus goes back for centuries.

The Israelites venerated idols of what they believed to be God-like, that goes back centuries...........should we continue in their ways?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Duet 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth.

Yeah as Paul spake to them of the Godhead in particular, so saying, "but this is the Godhead" after mans device wouldnt go over with Paul well given he adressed the Godhead as does Duet (anything in heaven above)

 

[Fireinfolding]

The Israelites venerated idols of what they believed to be God-like, that goes back centuries...........should we continue in their ways?

Ezek 26:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

He winked at it at one time

1Titus 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

 

[christianmomof3]

I wonder if that is mostly the culture - whether it be the Spanish culture or the Catholic culture or a mix of both.
Because in the US, a large statue of Jesus was recently struck by lightening and burnt to the ground, but I don't think anyone came and brought flowers to the site.
Big Butter Jesus on fire | Lightning strikes Solid Rock Church
Landmark 'Touchdown Jesus' statue catches fire after lightning strike :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Nation
That statue was at a non-denom church rather than a Catholic one. Perhaps if it had been a Catholic church the reactions would have been different?

 

[Nick T]

The biblical quotes concerning idolatry do not apply to venerated images. An idol is an image that is worshipped. An icon/statue in a Christian church is venerated. Veneration is showing respect (just as you might call a wise old man "venerable") whereas worship is reserved from God alone . As I said before the image is venerated becasue fo what it represents not because of the wood itself.

Secondly the OT prohibitation on graven images only applies to idols. This is clearly shown by the fact that Solomon's Temple was full of images of Cherubim; On the Ark—Ex. 25:18, On the Curtains of the Tabernacle—Ex. 26:1, On the Veil of the Holy of Holies—Ex. 26:31, Two huge Cherubim in the Sanctuary—1st Kings 6:23, On the Walls—1st Kings 6:29, On the Doors—1st Kings 6:32, And on the furnishings—1st Kings 7:29,36.

Thirdly the reason why images of God were forbidden was because he had never shown himself in physical form. Jesus, however was in physical form and therefore may be depicted. Essentially while we cannot depict the glory of the Godhead we can depict the Son in the form of Jesus Christ. Images of Jesus Christ are found in all the earliest christian places of worship and only "fell out of fashion" during the Reformation 1500 or so years later.

However to tie this all back to the origional question the reason why I think the spanish catholics acted in such a way is because, to them, attacking the statue is insulting Jesus himself just as burning of a national flag is seen as a grave insult to the country in question.

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Ezek 26:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

He winked at it at one time

1Titus 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Is there really any difference in meaning between the terms "venerate" and "worship"?

venerate definition
ven·er·ate (ven′ə rāt&#8242
transitive verb venerated -·at′ed, venerating -·at′·ing
to look upon with feelings of deep respect; regard as venerable; revere
Origin: < L veneratus, pp. of venerari, to worship, reverence < venus (gen. veneris), love: see Venus
-------
worship definition
wor·ship (w&#649;r&#8242;s&#824;hip)
noun
reverence or devotion for a deity; religious homage or veneration
a church service or other rite showing this
extreme devotion or intense love or admiration of any kind
Origin: ME worschip < OE weorthscipe, honor, dignity, worship: see worth & -ship
to show religious devotion or reverence for; adore or venerate as a deity
to have intense love or admiration for; adore or idolize.

 

[tadoflamb]

Is there really any difference in meaning between the terms "venerate" and "worship"?

venerate definition
ven·er·ate (ven&#8242;&#601; r&#257;t&#8242
transitive verb venerated -·at&#8242;ed, venerating -·at&#8242;·ing
to look upon with feelings of deep respect; regard as venerable; revere
Origin: < L veneratus, pp. of venerari, to worship, reverence < venus (gen. veneris), love: see Venus
-------
worship definition
wor·ship (w&#649;r&#8242;s&#824;hip)
noun
reverence or devotion for a deity; religious homage or veneration
a church service or other rite showing this
extreme devotion or intense love or admiration of any kind
Origin: ME worschip < OE weorthscipe, honor, dignity, worship: see worth & -ship
to show religious devotion or reverence for; adore or venerate as a deity
to have intense love or admiration for; adore or idolize.

Yes, by the definitions you offered; worship is offered to a deity, veneration is not.

 

[christianmomof3]

Yes, by the definitions you offered; worship is offered to a deity, veneration is not.

That is true, but why would you have deep respect for a statue?
I can see regarding a statue as valuable, but you don't kiss your money or your car or anything.

 

[tadoflamb]

That is true, but why would you have deep respect for a statue?
I can see regarding a statue as valuable, but you don't kiss your money or your car or anything.

It's not the statue, but what it represents.

For instance, I was at a Benedictine monastary last Sunday for mass and they have a replica of Michelanglo's 'Pieta' (the real one was also vandalized). When I came back from communion there was a woman kneeling before it with rosary in her hand. It was a touching scene. Was she worshiping the statue. I doubt it. What is more likely is this magnificent sculpture was lifting her mind to some other place and helping her work through what she was working through.

After mass, as we passed the replica of the Pieta, several reached out and touched Jesus's feet. Did we really think those were the feet of Jesus? No, but such a tender act of devotion is just one more tangible way in which we express our love for Christ and his people.

Same thing when we venerate the Cross on Good Friday. Do we believe that's really the cross on which Jesus shed His precious Blood? No, but this gives up a tangible opportunity to express our devotion.

When my St. Vincent de Paul conference gets together for our meetings, we have a small figurine of our patron Saint. Do we think the figurine has any special power? No, but it's presence is a visual reminder of the spirit of charity in which we are gathered.

Basically, Catholicism is a whole body, heart and soul type of experience. It's just one more implication of the Incarnation; God humbling Himself to dwell among us.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Is there really any difference in meaning between the terms "venerate" and "worship"?

venerate definition
ven·er·ate (ven&#8242;&#601; r&#257;t&#8242
transitive verb venerated -·at&#8242;ed, venerating -·at&#8242;·ing
to look upon with feelings of deep respect; regard as venerable; revere
Origin: < L veneratus, pp. of venerari, to worship, reverence < venus (gen. veneris), love: see Venus
-------
worship definition
wor·ship (w&#649;r&#8242;s&#824;hip)
noun
reverence or devotion for a deity; religious homage or veneration
a church service or other rite showing this
extreme devotion or intense love or admiration of any kind
Origin: ME worschip < OE weorthscipe, honor, dignity, worship: see worth & -ship
to show religious devotion or reverence for; adore or venerate as a deity
to have intense love or admiration for; adore or idolize.

Here...

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

kampt&#333;

1) to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
a) to one
1) in honour of one
2) in religious veneration
b) used of worshippers
2) to bow one's self

The word veneration is under this specific definition, depends on which definition you look under, theres various words and definitions throughout scripture, or just simply look in the verse itself too.

 

[Nick T]

Is there really any difference in meaning between the terms "venerate" and "worship"?

On a similar threat on TAW a poster quoted the wikipedia article on "Worship" on the differance between the two:
"Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy distinguish between adoration or latria (Latin adoratio, Greek latreia, [&#955;&#945;&#964;&#961;&#949;&#953;&#945;]), which is due to God alone, and veneration or dulia (Latin veneratio, Greek douleia [&#948;&#959;&#965;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945;]), which may be lawfully offered to the saints. The external acts of veneration resemble those of worship, but differ in their object and intent. ... Adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the acknowledgement of excellence and perfection of an uncreated, divine person. It is the worship of the Creator that God alone deserves. Veneration, known as dulia in classical theology, is the honor due to the excellence of a created person. This refers to the excellence exhibited by the created being who likewise deserves recognition and honor."

Although in modern english there may be little differance in both greek and latin there does appear to be a greater distinction.

 

[tadoflamb]

Here...

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

kampt&#333;

1) to bend, bow, the knee (the knees)
a) to one
1) in honour of one
2) in religious veneration
b) used of worshippers
2) to bow one's self

The word veneration is under this specific definition, depends on which definition you look under, theres various words and definitions throughout scripture, or just simply look in the verse itself too.

This doesn't really prove anything. I may bow or kneel before the Blessed Sacrament in adoration, which is the same as worship and is reserved only for God. On the other hand I may kneel before a statue of the Blessed Mother and pray a rosary which is veneration. While both actions have the same outside appearance, interiorly one is worship and the other is not.

Much of the argument against the practice of veneration depends on the critics assumption that they know what's going on in our hearts.