All this for a statue?

[addo]

No, this is not about the "general Catholic believer". This is the way people are in Andalucía and more so in Sevilla. The statues, more than religious symbols, are also part of the local identity.

People from Agaete, on my island, cried when they saw a piece of rock in the shape of a finger fell onto the sea. It was part of their identity.

Sevillians can be a real pain making fun out of everything and they are quite passionate guys in everything they do. Most of the people in the crowds, you aren't going to see them in Mass, and you should know that.

(And by the way, the Sexta does not waste an opportunity to make fun of religion in general or Christianity in particular)

I know. There were some news on homosexuality as some institution supposedly was treating homosexuality as a disease. They made fun of them saying that it is "commonly known" the "homosexuality is normal" or that "we know it's not a disease". I don't remember the exact phrase, but it was something like among those lines.

 

[christianmomof3]

No, this is not about the "general Catholic believer". This is the way people are in Andalucía and more so in Sevilla. The statues, more than religious symbols, are also part of the local identity.

People from Agaete, on my island, cried when they saw a piece of rock in the shape of a finger fell onto the sea. It was part of their identity.

Sevillians can be a real pain making fun out of everything and they are quite passionate guys in everything they do. Most of the people in the crowds, you aren't going to see them in Mass, and you should know that.

(And by the way, the Sexta does not waste an opportunity to make fun of religion in general or Christianity in particular)

So it is more of a cultural thing than a religious one in that area then?
I think that because so many peoples from those kind of cultures are part of the Catholic religion, that the same sort of attitude (venerating statues) has also become part of the religion and many Catholics see it as a religious thing when it really was originally cultural rather than religious, and now the two - culture and religion are blended together.

 

[New_Wineskin]

The whole arm came down but they repaired it finally. In the next video, at the end, the man says that he is Jesus Christ (Jesucristo, in Spanish), and that's why he did it. Of course he's nuts, but I want to comment on another aspect.

From the reaction , he was the most sane of the lot . In fact , I wouldn't be surprised if the reaction jolted him back to sanity .

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

You gotta love how he puts these things

Isaiah 44:13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house. He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

As it pertains to images even in male or female form here...

Duet 4:17 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

And Paul is in agreement as well

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Though, busting down or breaking images is whats shown in the better of in the prophets but cryng over a broken arm of a graven image?

Graven images represent false gods. They bring people away from God.

The Ark of the Covenant had golden angels on it. Religious art brings people to God.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

That is true, but why would you have deep respect for a statue?

The man's offense was seemingly directed as Jesus for these people.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [proskunei] him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man."

Why do those who claim to be Peter's successors offer their hands or rings or feet to be kissed and seem to enjoy being carried about on the shoulders of men, just like those idols the churches parade through the streets ?

Peter was being worshipped as a god, the pope is not considered a deity.

Calling icons idols is offensive and unnecessary. Can you explain why God commanded the creation of golden statues in the OT?

God isn't confused... there is simply a difference. Pagans worshiped objects as their gods. Art is beauty and it comes from God, if done correctly, it should draw us to Him.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Graven images represent false gods. They bring people away from God.

The Ark of the Covenant had golden angels on it. Religious art brings people to God.

Paul adresses the Godhead as it pertains to "this time of ignorance" God winked at which also pertains to that overlaid with gold (as was Ark) he was of God appointed with understanding to point these things out (as they were signified by the Holy Ghost see Heb 9:4-8)

Jerm 3:15-16 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Because of what it represented (the law having a shadow of the good things to come but not the very image of things) was how God chose to speak by the ministry of the prophets multiplying visions and using similitudes by them.

Where is the ark?

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Tables of the testament "thou BRAKEST" God said (make tables like the first ones and place them IN the ark) signifies...Jesus said I have KEPT my Fathers commandments, as He is the temple of God ...the heavenly position of the ark (wherein were the tables) = "destroy this Temple" (My body) and I will RAISE IT UP = the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament that points to dying to the law through body of Jesus that we might belong to another to him who was raised from the dead

They were in his flesh thats why it speaks of abolishing in his flesh of the same

...they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

If he knew it would bring you closer why didnt He say make only images that are in heaven? The ark of the covenant isnt even to be visited any more.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Paul adresses the Godhead as it pertains to "this time of ignorance" God winked at which also pertains to that overlaid with gold (as was Ark) he was of God appointed with understanding to point these things out (as they were signified by the Holy Ghost see Heb 9:4-8)

Jerm 3:15-16 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

Because of what it represented (the law having a shadow of the good things to come but not the very image of things) was how God chose to speak by the ministry of the prophets multiplying visions and using similitudes by them.

Where is the ark?

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Tables of the testament "thou BRAKEST" God said (make tables like the first ones and place them IN the ark) signifies...Jesus said I have KEPT my Fathers commandments, as He is the temple of God ...the heavenly position of the ark (wherein were the tables) = "destroy this Temple" (My body) and I will RAISE IT UP = the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament that points to dying to the law through body of Jesus that we might belong to another to him who was raised from the dead

They were in his flesh thats why it speaks of abolishing in his flesh of the same

...they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

If he knew it would bring you closer why didnt He say make only images that are in heaven? The ark of the covenant isnt even to be visited any more.

Your post doesn't make sense. It sounds like it is just something you cut and pasted from a reference source.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Your post doesn't make sense. It sounds like it is just something you cut and pasted from a reference source.

I dont quote other sources but the scripture, neither do I study other people stuff or use other peoples stuff, I have my own stuff, what do you mean reference source?

 

[lighthouse_hope]

So it is more of a cultural thing than a religious one in that area then?
I think that because so many peoples from those kind of cultures are part of the Catholic religion, that the same sort of attitude (venerating statues) has also become part of the religion and many Catholics see it as a religious thing when it really was originally cultural rather than religious, and now the two - culture and religion are blended together.

For some people both things are blended together, for others they are making their own religions outside of the Catholic Church. You'd only need to drive to Old Castilla -- the core of Spain -- to find quite different attitudes.

 

[addo]

Graven images represent false gods. They bring people away from God.

The Ark of the Covenant had golden angels on it. Religious art brings people to God.

1. No people* bowed down to it.
2. No people* prayed towards them.
3. No people* brought flowers to them.
4. No people* kissed them.
5. etc.

This doesn't works for Catholics, for they, in general, do the above.

*I'm referring to the Israelites, and in particular to what God permitted them (He didn't allow them to bow down to them, kiss them, pray towards them, etc.).

Have you read Baruch by the way?

 

[Dorothea]

Graven images represent false gods. They bring people away from God.

The Ark of the Covenant had golden angels on it. Religious art brings people to God.

This is so true. While we argue over statues or other religious objects which focus on the glory of God, other idols plague our minds that are less obvious, such as these idols: politics/political parties, sports/sports figures, cars, money, sex, etc. (I kinda explained this in a separate thread, but it seems to apply in this thread as well).

Whatever we put ahead of God is an idol in our lives. This is why my priest always says to be vigilant, passionate, and obedient in serving God. Keeping Him as our center. And having icons or statues or bibles, or prayer ropes, or the rosary all center on God, and bring us closer to Him because they are about Him.

 

[Fireinfolding]

This is so true. While we argue over statues or other religious objects which focus on the glory of God, other idols plague our minds that are less obvious, such as these idols: politics/political parties, sports/sports figures, cars, money, sex, etc. (I kinda explained this in a separate thread, but it seems to apply in this thread as well).

Whatever we put ahead of God is an idol in our lives. This is why my priest always says to be vigilant, passionate, and obedient in serving God. Keeping Him as our center.

Dorothea those you just pointed out are all covered in this commandment here...

Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Its the other commandment pertains to making a graven image

Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Paul confirming the same

Acts 17:29-30 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is likeunto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

As shown in revelation as well

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Adressed from the beginning to the end.

They are two different commandments though

 

[Dorothea]

Dorothes those you pointed out are all covered in this commandment

Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Its the other commandment pertains to making a graven image

Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Paul confirming the same

Acts 17:29-30 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is likeunto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

As shown in revelation as well

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Adressed from the beginning to the end.

They are two different commandments though

Ok. This doesn't change the fact that religious art and statues and the rosary (for Catholics) and icons, prayer ropes, prayer books (Orthodox), and the bible for both, bring us closer to God because they are all visual aides to our learning about Him, His glory, His Saints, and His Words.
They attract you and focus you on God, not distract.

No images from heaven or under the earth. Writings of the Saints (humans) and Christ in human form is not violating this Commandment. As far as angels that are in heaven, is this a violation to have baby angel calendars, plaques on walls, statues in gardens, etc.?

 

[lighthouse_hope]

1. No people* bowed down to it.
2. No people* prayed towards them.
3. No people* brought flowers to them.
4. No people* kissed them.
5. etc.

This doesn't works for Catholics, for they, in general, do the above.

*I'm referring to the Israelites, and in particular to what God permitted them (He didn't allow them to bow down to them, kiss them, pray towards them, etc.).

Have you read Baruch by the way?

You don't think the ancient Hebrews venerated the Ark? Because, now that I think about it, this is probably the strongest pro-veneration argument I've heard in a while.

 

[addo]

You don't think the ancient Hebrews venerated the Ark? Because, now that I think about it, this is probably the strongest pro-veneration argument I've heard in a while.

I was concentrating on what they did with the body, and not on they thought.

No. I don't think they venerated the ark, but what was inside it: the Ten Commandments, God's Law, which is truth (Psalms 119:142;151), by the way.

And even if they would venerated it they:

1. Didn't kiss it.
2. Didn't bow down before it.
3. Didn't bring pray towards it.
4. etc.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Ok. This doesn't change the fact that religious art and statues and the rosary (for Catholics) and icons, prayer ropes, prayer books (Orthodox), and the bible for both, bring us closer to God because they are all visual aides to our learning about Him, His glory, His Saints, and His Words.
They attract you and focus you on God, not distract.

But if they did why didnt God encourage it rather then discourage it? Even as it pertains to visiting the ark itself? Why say, they will not do that anymore?

No images from heaven or under the earth. Writings of the Saints (humans) and Christ in human form is not violating this Commandment. As far as angels that are in heaven, is this a violation to have baby angel calendars, plaques on walls, statues in gardens, etc.?

Christ walked as one man upon earth (manifested for our sakes) and is also now seated in heaven. Why wouldnt an image of him be regarded as either? whether a portrayal of him (after the flesh) who was upon the earth or of him who is seated above all in heaven?

Afterall Paul says we are not to even know Jesus after the flesh (anymore) that they once did (indeed) but henceforth they are not to do that any more .Yet an image of him is (for the most part) is portrayed after his flesh (to which Paul speaks, and of not regarding Christ after it anymore). I mean, even as it pertained (also) after the very ark itself which did signify him after a different respect it speaks after the same... "they will not visit it, neither will they do that anymore". The scriptures appear very consistent in respects to that. See what I mean?

 

[lighthouse_hope]

I was concentrating on what they did with the body, and not on they thought.

No. I don't think they venerated the ark, but what was inside it: the Ten Commandments, God's Law, which is truth (Psalms 119:142;151), by the way.

And even if they would venerated it they:

1. Didn't kiss it.
2. Didn't bow down before it.
3. Didn't bring pray towards it.
4. etc.

And when King David staged a procession or the Ark was in the vanguard of the Israeli armies (The Cross took that place), isn't that veneration?

What about when it was in the very center of the Temple or the core of the Tabernacle? The details might change and they do, but the veneration of the object is clear.

Thanks, I know that might sting, but I've never been so sure about having found a precedent for veneration, .

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Another thread where protestants get things COMPLETELY messed up.
I type this while I venerate the crucifix on my wall.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I was concentrating on what they did with the body, and not on they thought.

No. I don't think they venerated the ark, but what was inside it: the Ten Commandments, God's Law, which is truth (Psalms 119:142;151), by the way.

And even if they would venerated it they:

1. Didn't kiss it.
2. Didn't bow down before it.
3. Didn't bring pray towards it.
4. etc.

I shared this on another thread but you can catch a great truth in this

It says this...

Prov 25:12 As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold,**so is** a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.

And what did the people do in a figure?

Exodus 32:3 And all the people brake **off** the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

ALL the people disobeyed (would not hear) thus "breaking off their earrings of gold" which is as a wise reprover upon an "obedient ear" "turning their ears" away from the truth and going their own way to do this (in a figure)

Exodus 32:34 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 32:7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have **corrupted** themselves:

Which again it says...

Duet 4:16 Lest ye **corrupt** yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

In their case a fourfooted beast yet male and female are also spoken of and the similitude of any figure when it came to a graven image.

So the Lord says to Moses

Exodus 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

Stiffnecked pertains to uncircumcised heart and ears = the **brake off** the gold earrings in their ears (which is as a wise reprover on AN OBEDIENT EAR

Which is again shown here...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and **ears**, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Sticknecked and the "ears" (together) they would not hear

Exodus 13:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he **saw** the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.

Exodus 32:20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

Again, Paul in accord

Acts 12:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

And Paul does speak of "the times of this ignorance"

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

And in revealtion there is shown many of whom there is no such repentance in regards to these things.