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Just from the little I've seen on the web about Karaite's I thought they were fairly solid. Do they have a lot of shoddy stuff like this, or is this guy an anomaly?He's a Karaite.
Just from the little I've seen on the web about Karaite's I thought they were fairly solid. Do they have a lot of shoddy stuff like this, or is this guy an anomaly?
What is so shoddy about the guys article? He simply listed the sects is all. I thought nothing wrong of him likening the rebellion of Korah etc, to short lived sects?You need to be more careful with how you process the information you get from random sources. This guy actually calls the revelry at the Golden Calf and the Rebellion of Korach sects! To hear him tell it, every individual in Israel constituted his own separate sectarian movement.
He also treats all the various sectarian groups as though they are equal in numbers and influence. They were not, by any stretch. The Pharisees were far and away the most significant in influence and popularity. Why, even the Sadducean priests were mandated by Rome to perform sacrifices according to the Pharisaic rite! The Pharisees were normative, with Sadducees representing the wealthy and powerful class. The other groups were minority, to the point of being negligible fringies.
I don't know who this Yaron guy is, but his treatment is shoddy, from a historical perspective.
You might find of interest Wolff Abrahams site: reflecting on Judaism.The rabbinic Jews, which are the majority today. The Karaites never followed it, nor the Essenes or Sadducees. I don't know about the zealots. The Jews in Ethiopia followed a pre-rabbinic form of Judaism.
You need to be more careful with how you process the information you get from random sources. This guy actually calls the revelry at the Golden Calf and the Rebellion of Korach sects! To hear him tell it, every individual in Israel constituted his own separate sectarian movement.
He also treats all the various sectarian groups as though they are equal in numbers and influence. They were not, by any stretch. The Pharisees were far and away the most significant in influence and popularity. Why, even the Sadducean priests were mandated by Rome to perform sacrifices according to the Pharisaic rite! The Pharisees were normative, with Sadducees representing the wealthy and powerful class. The other groups were minority, to the point of being negligible fringies.
I don't know who this Yaron guy is, but his treatment is shoddy, from a historical perspective.
Wouldn't you have to also factor in their "political" and spiritual following? For a small percentage of the Jewish population these people certainly held a lot of power in both the secular and religious arenas.The Pharisees were not that large a group. They probably held little, if any, influence outside of Jerusalem during the second temple period.
From My Jewish Learning website:
The small size of these groups is attested by the fact that even during Herod's rule [37-4 BCE] the Pharisees numbered only some six thousand, and in the first century there were approximately four thousand Essenes. The Essene communal site at Qumran, specifically its dining area, could accommodate perhaps as many as two hundred members at any one time and roughly indicates the sect's size. The Sadducees, for their part, were even fewer in number, if a comment by Josephus regarding the first century C.E. may be considered relevant to the Hasmonean era.
Jewish Sects? - My Jewish Learning
I have noticed that there are many misconceptions, as well as a general lack of knowledge regarding the Talmud [Oral Torah] here at CF. So, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread entitled "All Things Talmud." I have personally had many experiences with people who have a very strong, and negative opinion about the Oral Torah, but had not even read a single word of it. As strange as that might sound, it is actually a common occurence, for whatever reason. So, I have uploaded The Complete Babylonian Talmud [Soncino Edition] for your covenience. This way, we will all have the text book on hand in order to study, and quote from. The book is currently in the .pdf format, which requires Adobe Reader if you want to read it offline. If you don't already have the latest version of Adobe Reader, you can download it for free right here: Adobe Reader
If you need to have the book in a different format just let me know, and I'll take care of it for you. To read, or download the book simply click on this link: The Complete Babylonian Talmud.pdf
It may take a little bit to load, because it's an extremely large document with over ten thousand pages. If you cannot get it to load at all then simply download it as described below.
You can read the book online by saving that page in your favorites, but I strongly recommend that you download it, so you can save it on your computer. To download the book, look at the top right corner of the page, and click on the arrow button to the right, positioned next to the login form. It looks like this...
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If you have any problems whatsoever with the above directions, just comment in this thread and I'll help you.
The Pharisees were not that large a group. They probably held little, if any, influence outside of Jerusalem during the second temple period.
From My Jewish Learning website:
The small size of these groups is attested by the fact that even during Herod's rule [37-4 BCE] the Pharisees numbered only some six thousand, and in the first century there were approximately four thousand Essenes. The Essene communal site at Qumran, specifically its dining area, could accommodate perhaps as many as two hundred members at any one time and roughly indicates the sect's size. The Sadducees, for their part, were even fewer in number, if a comment by Josephus regarding the first century C.E. may be considered relevant to the Hasmonean era.
Jewish Sects? - My Jewish Learning
I see paragraphs there.You can't see it? Walls of text without paragraphs are difficult to read. Many people (including myself) will skip right over them.
I see paragraphs there.
You need to be more careful with how you process the information you get from random sources. This guy actually calls the revelry at the Golden Calf and the Rebellion of Korach sects! To hear him tell it, every individual in Israel constituted his own separate sectarian movement.
He also treats all the various sectarian groups as though they are equal in numbers and influence. They were not, by any stretch. The Pharisees were far and away the most significant in influence and popularity. Why, even the Sadducean priests were mandated by Rome to perform sacrifices according to the Pharisaic rite! The Pharisees were normative, with Sadducees representing the wealthy and powerful class. The other groups were minority, to the point of being negligible fringies.
I don't know who this Yaron guy is, but his treatment is shoddy, from a historical perspective.
You confuse numbers with influence and popular acceptance.
As that article also mentions, all these groups had stringent membership standards, making it understandable that most people wouldn't want to get involved in an official capacity. But, like today, the small numbers of the Haredi belies their influence as standard-bearers for all Torah observance.
Don't forget that overall planetary population was much lower back then. Six thousand sounds small to us today, but it was a sizable number back then.
Yeshua's approach clearly aligned with the Pharisees. That alone should make it a no-brainer that they represent the branch of Jewish teaching that he considered worth refining and developing. He worked within the Pharisaic establishment--not the Sadducean or Essene communities. And he sure didn't start his own independent thing.
That is a fair assessment of the modern Messianic movement in my estimation, and yes, I definitely get your point.First off, Messianics as I'm coming to see are not unified on most any view of themselves. Not surprising as their pedigree is Judaism and Christianity, both of which are divided into sects which argue about as much as they agree on, at the very least. Put the two together, and ... well, you get the point I'm sure.
You have touched on some very significant issues in this comment. I would like to prepare a thorough post regarding them if you don't mind, but I'm currently battling a small bout of insomnia, and my mind is not exactly clear at the moment. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.My view on the Jewish Oral Tradition is one which I find common amongst most Messianics I've met online or in person or read about. That is that it is commentary and not equal to scripture in authority. It is however commentary by people who were there, or at least a lot closer than later Christian commentators. This may be in conflict with Jewish beliefs, as I understand some put it at the same level of authority as scripture- you'll have to enlighten me/us about that though. At any rate, Messianics do not outright reject Talmudic teachings as far as I know. We just may not see eye-to-eye with you or each other on it.
It was certainly not my intention to start this thread in order to teach Talmud. First of all, I am not qualified to do so [not even close]. I'm not even a Rabbi, let alone a Talmudic scholar. Additionally, I'm pretty sure that would break CF rules in one way or another, but I'm not positive. My intentions for starting this thread was mainly to provide a copy of the text, and perhaps field some questions on the subject by referring to other texts authored by those who are actually qualified to do so.In light of that, you might want to tell us what you mean by "learning Talmud." I'm certainly interested in learning about it- the differences in the Babylonian and the Jerusalem texts (I'm not even sure I got that right either, so you might start by correcting me there); the way the Mishnah and Gemara are laid out, and why; historical perspectives; and some of what they teach. I suspect though, if you really want to teach the whole thing you'd better get your own forum here as it will be a huge undertaking, especially with this crowd!
I'm not interested in debating the identity of the Jewish Messiah in this thread, nor is it necessary for a discussion of Talmud. Jews have been studying Talmud for well over a thousand years without any consideration of Jesus' Messianic claims. I think we can pull it off in this thread as well.And you should be prepared for some argument amongst ourselves making it relevant to what we believe, which will necessarily involve that elephant again- was Yeshua the Messiah. We could take that discussion outside your thread(s) on teaching Talmud, but the elephant would still be there and it's a big'un. Not trying to dissuade you or rain on your attempt to help; just pointing some things out that really should be too obvious to ignore.
I have no clue what screen resolution means, but a person only needs to hit the link to read site.Perhaps It Is A Matter Of Font Size Or Screen Resolution. I Agree With Dena That The Text You Pasted Looks Pretty Forboding.