All Israel is saved

Buzz_B said:

I am not going to even read that post as i warned you about your emotional flooding. You are just using a truth you can twist to support your writing your own Bible.

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Again i use God's Word and you are offended by Zion. Seek ask and fine.

Buzz_B said:

I knew you did not understand that and that is what I was referring to when I said "butchering." You have indeed butchered the meaning of it.

Christ alone is that king/priests according to the manner of Melchizedek, he alone having no beginning dependent upon his birth as a human. But I see that this is a part of your ideas that humans existed first as spirits. No wonder your thinking is so messed up.

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Like David had His court Jesus has His elect. SaviorS not savior.

There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.





The Book of Revelation is the most spiritual book in the entire Bible and it not written to the lost, the heathen or the soulish man. Most soulish men may be religious and can no hear the spiritual message in the book of Revelation. Those who are hearing the book of revelation are not the lost, not the religious; but God's elect.


And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Re 22:17 KJV)

This is not a call to basic salvation for the lost; this is a call to feast upon the deep things of God to those who have spiritual ears to hear, not those who have religious ears or those who never have been called.

Carnal man or religious man cannot take the water of life freely. Religious man hears his creed, dogmas, religious idealism’s, Popes, preachers etc. But they do not hear God divine word. You see hearing spiritually is for the out called the multitude of believers who only hear what they can mimic from the multitude of religious baby-lon all over the world.


There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 1:6
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.




Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

As I said, "Christ alone is that king/priests according to the manner of Melchizedek, he alone having no beginning dependent upon his birth as a human. But I see that this is a part of your ideas that humans existed first as spirits. No wonder your thinking is so messed up."

What you fail to reason in is that the kingdom of Christ is returned back to God as Paul describes at
1 Corinthians 15:28.

However, Christ was a king over all with God before coming to earth and so he is a king forever just as (or, according to the manner of) Melchizedek. That cannot be said of the rest. Even though they reign forever in this sense of the dominion God gave at Genesis 1:28, there was only one Melchizedek and that one is Christ. Many kings associated themselves with Melchizedek while he was on the scene and that did not make them Melchizedek but pictorial of those elect who become associate kings with Christ.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

Again i use God's Word and you are offended by Zion. Seek ask and fine.

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If it satisfies the conceit in you to see that as taking offense then be my guest. I don't expect you to get over yourself. But not letting one's self be led down every emotionally based flood by others has nothing to be with being offended. Think what you wish.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

Revelation 1:6
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.




Revelation 5:10
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

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Amen, in the sense of the dominion given at Genesis 1:26-28. Not in the sense it applies to Christ that he is king for ever. For he always was king over all appointed of God before he came to earth from heaven. The associate kings cast their crowns before God and the Lamb. Christ Jesus does not.

Revelation 4:10-11 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Are we also to claim that God was not always king? Think about it.

Edit: Sometimes I edit as I go and I do not always say what I meant clearly the first time. Thus the need for editing. What happened is that before I completed the one post I answered another and it took what I was yet working on and posted it together with that post. So I separated it to a post of its own and finished the editing. Sorry if that confused you.

Revelation 4:10-11 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Why the four and twenty? 144,000 / 24 = 6000

12 X 12 X 1000 = 144,000

6 + 6 = 12

What does that number 24 then seem to represent?

Remember what I told you about that Israel at Revelation 7 being the Israel with the wall of separation torn down and thus representing both Jews and Gentiles.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.





The Book of Revelation is the most spiritual book in the entire Bible and it not written to the lost, the heathen or the soulish man. Most soulish men may be religious and can no hear the spiritual message in the book of Revelation. Those who are hearing the book of revelation are not the lost, not the religious; but God's elect.


And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Re 22:17 KJV)

This is not a call to basic salvation for the lost; this is a call to feast upon the deep things of God to those who have spiritual ears to hear, not those who have religious ears or those who never have been called.

Carnal man or religious man cannot take the water of life freely. Religious man hears his creed, dogmas, religious idealism’s, Popes, preachers etc. But they do not hear God divine word. You see hearing spiritually is for the out called the multitude of believers who only hear what they can mimic from the multitude of religious baby-lon all over the world.


There are two groups of people I the book of Revelation; those who overcome (God’s elect) and everyone else.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

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Yes, I have been saying just what you said here. So we know we agree on this much.

Revelations Grand Climax book published by the WTBTS, speaks of that number, “24”, as follows:

“What is significant about the number 24, in that John sees 24 elders around the throne? In many respects, these were foreshadowed by the faithful priests of ancient Israel. The apostle Peter wrote to anointed Christians:

“You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.’” (1 Peter 2:9)

Interestingly, that ancient Jewish priesthood came to be divided into 24 divisions. Each division was assigned its own weeks in the year to serve before Jehovah, so that sacred service was rendered without a break. (1 Chronicles 24:5-19) It is fitting, then, that there are 24 elders depicted in John’s vision of the heavenly priesthood because this priesthood serves Jehovah continually, without ceasing. When completed, there will be 24 divisions, each with 6,000 conquerors, for Revelation 14:1-4 tells us that 144,000 (24 x 6,000) are “bought from among mankind” to stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Since the number 12 signifies a divinely balanced organization, 24 doubles—or strengthens—such an arrangement.”

I agree with that but also see that the 12 + 12 represents equal representation for both Jews and Gentiles. And the twenty four divisions also represent coverage of every timezone of this earth so that the entire earth is represented by these elders.

Buzz, some very enlightening things you've posted in this thread and is appreciated and is not all landing on deaf ears. Be blessed.

Buzz_B said:

As I said, "Christ alone is that king/priests according to the manner of Melchizedek, he alone having no beginning dependent upon his birth as a human. But I see that this is a part of your ideas that humans existed first as spirits. No wonder your thinking is so messed up."

What you fail to reason in is that the kingdom of Christ is returned back to God as Paul describes at
1 Corinthians 15:28.

However, Christ was a king over all with God before coming to earth and so he is a king forever just as (or, according to the manner of) Melchizedek. That cannot be said of the rest. Even though they reign forever in this sense of the dominion God gave at Genesis 1:28, there was only one Melchizedek and that one is Christ. Many kings associated themselves with Melchizedek while he was on the scene and that did not make them Melchizedek but pictorial of those elect who become associate kings with Christ.

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What you are missing is the Melchizedek order. yes there is but one King of kings and Lord of lords but there are many saviorS at Mount Zion.

Buzz_B said:

As I said, "Christ alone is that king/priests according to the manner of Melchizedek, he alone having no beginning dependent upon his birth as a human. But I see that this is a part of your ideas that humans existed first as spirits. No wonder your thinking is so messed up."

What you fail to reason in is that the kingdom of Christ is returned back to God as Paul describes at
1 Corinthians 15:28.

However, Christ was a king over all with God before coming to earth and so he is a king forever just as (or, according to the manner of) Melchizedek. That cannot be said of the rest. Even though they reign forever in this sense of the dominion God gave at Genesis 1:28, there was only one Melchizedek and that one is Christ. Many kings associated themselves with Melchizedek while he was on the scene and that did not make them Melchizedek but pictorial of those elect who become associate kings with Christ.

Click to expand...

What you fail to realize is the Kingdom of Priest and what is Melchizedek? But a King and Priest. This is the overcomer, the saviorS, the firstfruits, the Tabernacle of David. David was King and lived at Mount Zion but he also had a court

Revelation 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Buzz_B said:

Revelations Grand Climax book published by the WTBTS, speaks of that number, “24”, as follows:

“What is significant about the number 24, in that John sees 24 elders around the throne? In many respects, these were foreshadowed by the faithful priests of ancient Israel. The apostle Peter wrote to anointed Christians:

“You are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.’” (1 Peter 2:9)

Interestingly, that ancient Jewish priesthood came to be divided into 24 divisions. Each division was assigned its own weeks in the year to serve before Jehovah, so that sacred service was rendered without a break. (1 Chronicles 24:5-19) It is fitting, then, that there are 24 elders depicted in John’s vision of the heavenly priesthood because this priesthood serves Jehovah continually, without ceasing. When completed, there will be 24 divisions, each with 6,000 conquerors, for Revelation 14:1-4 tells us that 144,000 (24 x 6,000) are “bought from among mankind” to stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Since the number 12 signifies a divinely balanced organization, 24 doubles—or strengthens—such an arrangement.”

I agree with that but also see that the 12 + 12 represents equal representation for both Jews and Gentiles. And the twenty four divisions also represent coverage of every timezone of this earth so that the entire earth is represented by these elders.

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Amen. I also see the number twelve as divine government.

This temple had already been rebuilt. I believe it was King Cyrus and King Darius who gave the order to the Jews to rebuild it. Amos was being quoted here. Amos was living in the time that tabernacle of David was still standing. While this rebuilt temple was standing.

Amos 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. This not speaking about the time of Amos; it is speaking of God’s Kingdom yet to come.

Amos was a farmer turned prophet and lived many years after King David. Amos was not still living when the Tabernacle of David was still standing; the Tabernacle of David ceased when Solomon build the temple; that is where the Ark of the Covenant went to Solomon’s Temple.

The Tabernacle of David; here was a just a small tent where the Ark of God was brought to Mount Zion/Sion; (It just makes no sense to bring the Ark to David’s house according to the law) However spiritually it makes total sense. How many times is this name mentioned in the NT. Zion was mentioned 152 times in OT; where Sion was mention 7 times in NT; sure this was David’s home Solomon etc; but is also a symbolism.


Zion was the natural home of King David who is a type of Christ in Natural Jerusalem. Mt Zion was the head of natural Kingdom; just as Spiritual Mt Zion is the Spiritual high place of Christ in the book of Revelation. David did not need to go to a priest; let alone a high priest to visit the Ark (or the glory of God) it was in a tent or tabernacle on his back porch at Mt Zion. This is a beautiful type which tells us myriads of what God is tying to tell us in the Spirit of the Word.


Again I repeat....

When David brought the Ark back to Mount Zion he wore an linen ephod, (In other word’s a priestly garment) David also offered burnt offerings to God as the High priest would on the Feast of Tabernacles. There was no high Priest; once a year at the Feast of Atonement at Zion; but David was an example of both King and Priest in that the Ark was not at Shiloh but Zion. No outer court, no holy place, no Levitical order. It is no wonder the Bible is full of pages written by David because of the influence of God’s Ark at Zion.


2 Samuel 6:

14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

17And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD












Acts 15: 16-17 (NAS)

'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'



Acts 15: 16 (HCSB)

After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again, 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

18 which have been known from long ago.


Acts 15 16 (NIRV)

" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent.
I will rebuild what was destroyed. I will make it what it used to be. 17 Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.'


Amos 9:11

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: 12That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this. 13Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. 14And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. 15And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.


I do not believe the NT was written for the disobedient Jews and if there was such a reference to the Jews it was place there for us. If had to do with

2tim_215 said:

Buzz, some very enlightening things you've posted in this thread and is appreciated and is not all landing on deaf ears. Be blessed.

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Our God is indeed most gracious and we ourselves know that the determination of anyone's guilt is justly mitigated by a person's capacity to understand. For that reason we know enough not to hang a young child with the penalties formulated for a mature adult. And we know that the reality is that mental/emotional maturity cannot be determined by age alone. Our most gracious God knows this better than us. And on that basis I feel it safe to say without being presumptuous that many more will be saved than we can know. Yet not all as some like Soars Like And Eagle would have us believe.

The more thinking ability we prove to have, the more culpable we are for what we believe and teach and do. And that is why James counseled that we should not be many teachers. Accepting the responsibility to teach others is synonymous with accepting that we must take extra care to make sure that what we teach is right. And when we accept the responsibility to teach we have to know that we become a main target of Satan via that choice. And he is very sly in his manipulations of those who prize themselves on being intelligent. Just as God is using the foolish to confound the wise, so also Satan uses the wisdom of the wise against them but it is their fault when he does so. They failed to make sure of their calling and promoted themselves out of pride and then did not have enough real sense to see the machinations Satan allured them through and with. And in so doing they reap a heavier judgment to themselves when all the while they could have remained just humble ordinary sheep whose ignorance could have been justly considered as a righteous reason to give them more time. For the prideful all too often become so set in their hearts relishing of their own capabilities that they absolutely become beyond repentance whether God sends the one from the dead or ten thousand to tell them of their error.

Buzz_B said:

Our God is indeed most gracious and we ourselves know that the determination of anyone's guilt is justly mitigated by a person's capacity to understand. For that reason we know enough not to hang a young child with the penalties formulated for a mature adult. And we know that the reality is that mental/emotional maturity cannot be determined by age alone. Our most gracious God knows this better than us. And on that basis I feel it safe to say without being presumptuous that many more will be saved than we can know. Yet not all as some like Soars Like And Eagle would have us believe.

The more thinking ability we prove to have, the more culpable we are for what we believe and teach and do. And that is why James counseled that we should not be many teachers. Accepting the responsibility to teach others is synonymous with accepting that we must take extra care to make sure that what we teach is right. And when we accept the responsibility to teach we have to know that we become a main target of Satan via that choice. And he is very sly in his manipulations of those who prize themselves on being intelligent. Just as God is using the foolish to confound the wise, so also Satan uses the wisdom of the wise against them but it is their fault when he does so. They failed to make sure of their calling and promoted themselves out of pride and then did not have enough real sense to see the machinations Satan allured them through and with. And in so doing they reap a heavier judgment to themselves when all the while they could have remained just humble ordinary sheep whose ignorance could have been justly considered as a righteous reason to give them more time. For the prideful all too often become so set in their hearts relishing of their own capabilities that they absolutely become beyond repentance whether God sends the one from the dead or ten thousand to tell them of their error.

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You give Satan far to much glory. But that is what happens when you do not believe God is not in total control

Buzz_B said:

Our God is indeed most gracious and we ourselves know that the determination of anyone's guilt is justly mitigated by a person's capacity to understand. For that reason we know enough not to hang a young child with the penalties formulated for a mature adult. And we know that the reality is that mental/emotional maturity cannot be determined by age alone. Our most gracious God knows this better than us. And on that basis I feel it safe to say without being presumptuous that many more will be saved than we can know. Yet not all as some like Soars Like And Eagle would have us believe.

The more thinking ability we prove to have, the more culpable we are for what we believe and teach and do. And that is why James counseled that we should not be many teachers. Accepting the responsibility to teach others is synonymous with accepting that we must take extra care to make sure that what we teach is right. And when we accept the responsibility to teach we have to know that we become a main target of Satan via that choice. And he is very sly in his manipulations of those who prize themselves on being intelligent. Just as God is using the foolish to confound the wise, so also Satan uses the wisdom of the wise against them but it is their fault when he does so. They failed to make sure of their calling and promoted themselves out of pride and then did not have enough real sense to see the machinations Satan allured them through and with. And in so doing they reap a heavier judgment to themselves when all the while they could have remained just humble ordinary sheep whose ignorance could have been justly considered as a righteous reason to give them more time. For the prideful all too often become so set in their hearts relishing of their own capabilities that they absolutely become beyond repentance whether God sends the one from the dead or ten thousand to tell them of their error.

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Amen. I have a saying that I sometimes use which goes like, "when I get it right, it's Holy Spirit speaking through me", and "when I get it wrong, it's just me". So much for humility, which is one of the reasons that God says that true believers are to fellowship one another and to edify (build each other up), that fellowship being built around Him.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

What you are missing is the Melchizedek order. yes there is but one King of kings and Lord of lords but there are many saviorS at Mount Zion.

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Being as I explained that to you once before your referring to it again highlights another casualty of your being so full of your own reasoning. You don't retain what you are told so that you can later compare it to additional thoughts.

Yet God can and does furnish a sort of lower saviours, even right here in the flesh: Nehemiah 9:27 "Therefore gavest thou them over in to the hand of their enemies that vexed them. And in the time of their trouble they cried unto thee, and thou hardest them from heaven and thorow thy great mercy thou gavest them saviours, which helpe." These were all figures of Christ. Christ is the greater Cyrus.
Cyrus was used to foreshadow of Christ. But your desired belief that all were sorts of Melchizedeks is for your goal of trying to have evidence to support your belief that we existed prior to Genesis 2:7 as spirits and your reasoning is failing miserably due to that desired belief.

Those associate kings/priests are also shown in the book of Revelation 22:1-2 as trees of life dripping their waters to the nations from off of their leaves, water which they have absorbed by having their roots firmly down into the soil drawing water from the river of the water of life. They are as Proverbs 11:30 says. But you go beyond with inventions only you and those you confuse think you understand and then get puzzled at us who our not caught up with you in that deception.

There is no need nor excuse to go beyond as you do. We have all the illustrations we need already plainly given to us. Your so-called revealed wisdom which goes way beyond what is written is the evil one fanning your pride. And I am not saying that to be derogatory but to try to help you.

Soar Like and Eagle said:

What you fail to realize is the Kingdom of Priest and what is Melchizedek? But a King and Priest. This is the overcomer, the saviorS, the firstfruits, the Tabernacle of David. David was King and lived at Mount Zion but he also had a court

Revelation 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Revelation 5:10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

Click to expand...

Those over-comers do not ever become high-priests as is Christ. Melchizedek was a high-priest with no lineage found for him among the flesh, the same is the actual reality of Christ in the flesh. God made him totally new in Mary's womb. And because all true Israel is actually spiritual God had every right to do that. He has done that for no others. That was to get a replacement to us for our fallen father Adam.

I will put something together to address your river in your post 594. Just be patient until I post it.

Buzz_B said:

Those over-comers do not ever become high-priests as is Christ. Melchizedek was a high-priest with no lineage found for him among the flesh, the same is the actual reality of Christ in the flesh. God made him totally new in Mary's womb. And because all true Israel is actually spiritual God had every right to do that. He has done that for no others. That was to get a replacement to us for our fallen father Adam.

I will put something together to address your river in your post 594. Just be patient until I post it.

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You are right they are part of the Melchizedek order.