All Graces Through Mary?

[Auntie]

Originally posted by devoted


You are right on track don't ever stop praying to Mary she will only lead you more deeper in love with Jesus.

I didn't think Catholics prayed "to" Mary. My senility is catching up with me.

 

[isshinwhat]

Technically speaking, any time you petition anyone for anything you have prayed to them. Prayer, in and of itself does not entail worship. Through the evolution of English in America, though, it has generally taken that connotation. In short we oray to Mary like we pray to one another... we ask her for her prayers... But since the term "pray to" Mary often confuses those who aren't familiar with asking saints for their prayers, we tend to shy away from the term in trans-denominational conversations. When we say we don't Pray to Mary, we mean we don't pray to her like we do to Christ, which is the only way most non-Catholics/Orthodox use the term pray... It is really an issue of semantics.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
Technically speaking, any time you petition anyone for anything you have prayed to them.

Yes, I agree. That's why it always confused me when Catholics would say they don't pray to Mary.

Prayer, in and of itself does not entail worship.

pray \"pra\ vb 1 : entreat, implore 2 : to ask earnestly for something 3 : to address God or a god esp. with supplication.

Nothing there says anything about worship.

Through the evolution of English in America, though, it has generally taken that connotation. In short we oray to Mary like we pray to one another... we ask her for her prayers... But since the term "pray to" Mary often confuses those who aren't familiar with asking saints for their prayers, we tend to shy away from the term in trans-denominational conversations. When we say we don't Pray to Mary, we mean we don't pray to her like we do to Christ, which is the only way most non-Catholics/Orthodox use the term pray... It is really an issue of semantics.

God Bless,

Neal

I understand what you're saying Neal. Thanks for the explanation. Personally, I think it's more confusing to say you don't pray to Mary, when in actuality, you DO pray to Mary. Of course, that doesn't mean you worship her.

 

[panterapat]

Auntie,

I guess that in the defense of the Catholic belief in Mary's role, we caused confusing by attempting to use what we thought other's wanted to hear.

I guess you are right- Catholics do pray to Mary but DO NOT worship her.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[VOW]

To Auntie:

(and welcome back!)

The problem is, though, that many Protestants believe "pray" means "to have a conversation with God, whereupon you worship, show reverence and respect, and bring your petitions to Him." Therefore, if Catholics say they "pray to Mary," the guano hits the fan. Then we get into the whole statues business, the Pope next to God, and a works-based salvation.

So, we Catholics have to be VERY CAREFUL how we word our statements.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by VOW
To Auntie:

(and welcome back!)

The problem is, though, that many Protestants believe "pray" means "to have a conversation with God, whereupon you worship, show reverence and respect, and bring your petitions to Him." Therefore, if Catholics say they "pray to Mary," the guano hits the fan. Then we get into the whole statues business, the Pope next to God, and a works-based salvation.

So, we Catholics have to be VERY CAREFUL how we word our statements.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hi VOW.

Somehow, it seems very sad to me that you feel like you have to be careful in how you word things. But I understand what you are saying.

 

[Caedmon]

Yeah, it's pretty sad. I love Mary very much, and I absolutely hate having to explain every time what I mean when I say I pray to Mary. It really detracts from what the emphasis should be, that Mary can pray for us in Heaven, and she can hold us in her arms like little babies and love on us and cuddle us and give us the most perfect example of the special kind of unconditional love that comes from a mother. *sniff*

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by panterapat
Auntie,

I guess that in the defense of the Catholic belief in Mary's role, we caused confusing by attempting to use what we thought other's wanted to hear.

I guess you are right- Catholics do pray to Mary but DO NOT worship her.

In Christ, Patrick

Thanks Patrick.

You are all very kind, I feel like I just got some Catholic hugs! And I'm sorry you guys feel like you have to be so careful with us Protestants. Are we that bad? (I probably shouldn't ask that question!)

I went to my sister-in-law's house over the holidays. I was somewhat taken aback when I first stepped in the door, because she had statues EVERYWHERE. There was not one inch of shelf or counter space that didn't have statues, rows and rows of them. But after a minute or two, it felt kind of nice. The statues were beautiful, and obviously a great comfort to my sister-in-law. Everything was really beautiful.

We each worship in our own way, the important thing is that we all love Jesus.

 

[panterapat]

Auntie-

Though we have some different expressions of how we worship God (Catholics and Protestants). We all meet at the Cross of Jesus. There is an anology that somewhat explains the difference between Catholic and Protestant worship.

The Cross of Christ has a horizontal beam. In a way this can illustrate the Catholic's reliance on Saints, Mary, novenas etc. as an indirect path to God.

The Cross of Christ also has a vertical beam which can illustrate the direct path Protestants take to God.

And there is Christ! He is hanging at the cross-member. We need to meet there also. We should be looking more at our similarities than our differences.

Let us all meet at the Cross of Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Christ, Patrick

ps: Here we can ALL get a big hug.

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Yeah, it's pretty sad. I love Mary very much, and I absolutely hate having to explain every time what I mean when I say I pray to Mary. It really detracts from what the emphasis should be, that Mary can pray for us in Heaven, and she can hold us in her arms like little babies and love on us and cuddle us and give us the most perfect example of the special kind of unconditional love that comes from a mother. *sniff*

Humblejoe! You're about to make me cry! Just tell those Protestants to GET A LIFE! It's none of their business how you worship, certainly not their place to judge you---sheeesh!!

But here's the thing, to most Protestants, it's a great *mystery* as to why the Catholics pray to Mary. I think people ask why, because most of us are just ignorant about it.

 

[panterapat]

Auntie (again)

You asked, "Are Protestants that bad???"

I am amazed by some Protestants. Many, many Protestants are holier than many Catholics. And yet- Protestants do not have the nourishment of the Eucharist. This amazes me. If I did not have the Body and Blood of Jesus to feed me, I think I would whither up and die. I could never be a strong Christian without the Most Holy Eucharist. So for those Protestants who can be strong in Christ without the Eucharist- They are amazing. And I wonder just how much stronger they could be if they received this sublime Heavenly Food.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by panterapat
Auntie-

Though we have some different expressions of how we worship God (Catholics and Protestants). We all meet at the Cross of Jesus. There is an anology that somewhat explains the difference between Catholic and Protestant worship.

The Cross of Christ has a horizontal beam. In a way this can illustrate the Catholic's reliance on Saints, Mary, novenas etc. as an indirect path to God.

The Cross of Christ also has a vertical beam which can illustrate the direct path Protestants take to God.

And there is Christ! He is hanging at the cross-member. We need to meet there also. We should be looking more at our similarities than our differences.

Let us all meet at the Cross of Jesus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Christ, Patrick

ps: Here we can ALL get a big hug.

AMEN to that! I like that analogy! When God looks down from Heaven, He sees His children worshipping Him in many different ways. I believe He is very much pleased with our worship, and the differences are a delight to Him.

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by panterapat
Auntie (again)

You asked, "Are Protestants that bad???"

I am amazed by some Protestants. Many, many Protestants are holier than many Catholics. And yet- Protestants do not have the nourishment of the Eucharist. This amazes me. If I did not have the Body and Blood of Jesus to feed me, I think I would whither up and die. I could never be a strong Christian without the Most Holy Eucharist. So for those Protestants who can be strong in Christ without the Eucharist- They are amazing. And I wonder just how much stronger they could be if they received this sublime Heavenly Food.

In Christ, Patrick

Your communion with Christ is thru the Eucharist, so of course it holds a very dear place in your heart and in your life. Similarly, my communion with Christ is thru my prayers to Him. I feel His presence very vividly when I am deep in prayer with Him. I think we have the same destination, just different routes of getting there.

 

[isshinwhat]

For Auntie from this Catholic brother.

 

[Auntie]

Originally posted by isshinwhat
For Auntie from this Catholic brother.

Thanks, bro.

 

[Budge]

I dont agree with Marian doctrines in the Catholic church. I plan to post more on Co-Redemptrix possible dogma tommorow and why I disagree with it. There are Catholics who disagree with this stuff. I am an ex-Catholic but I left a church where the priest wisely was against this too-high elevation of Mary.

A human cant be the spouse of God.

God is too Almighty for a human to even be at that level.

Mary is a sister in Christ that we will see in heaven, but she is not to be prayed to or considered as having divine powers like omniprecense--being able to hear the millions of prayers of pilgrims.

The Pope seems more intent on Mary then Jesus and that has concerned me. His Robes should say ALWAYS YOURS JESUS!


I go by the Bible on this rather then tradition.

 

[Wolseley]

I plan to post more on Co-Redemptrix possible dogma tommorow and why I disagree with it.

I look forward to your post.

Keep this in mind, however---from
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=306907#post306907:

Those with disagreements or issues about Catholic faith and doctrine are asked to post respectfully and politely; you may "agree to disagree", but you may not disparage, denegrate, or libel Catholicism, nor may you post links to anti-Catholic sites, pictures, etc. Die-hard anti-catholics are firmly asked to take such material elsewhere; this is a discussion forum, not a debate forum. Feel free to ask questions; but do not slam Catholics, Catholicism, or the Catholic Church.

Violations will be dealt with appropriately by the Staff.

 

[chelcb]

Originally posted by Budge
I dont agree with Marian doctrines in the Catholic church. I plan to post more on Co-Redemptrix possible dogma tommorow and why I disagree with it. There are Catholics who disagree with this stuff. I am an ex-Catholic but I left a church where the priest wisely was against this too-high elevation of Mary.

A human cant be the spouse of God.

God is too Almighty for a human to even be at that level.

Mary is a sister in Christ that we will see in heaven, but she is not to be prayed to or considered as having divine powers like omniprecense--being able to hear the millions of prayers of pilgrims.

The Pope seems more intent on Mary then Jesus and that has concerned me. His Robes should say ALWAYS YOURS JESUS!


I go by the Bible on this rather then tradition.

 

Hi Budge,

I am some what confused. If you don't mind me asking; why did you say that you are a ex catholic but in your profile it says that you are a Roman Catholic?

I look foward to reading your post about why you think Marian Dogmas are wrong.

 

 

 

[jukesk9]

Originally posted by Budge
I dont agree with Marian doctrines in the Catholic church. I plan to post more on Co-Redemptrix possible dogma tommorow and why I disagree with it. There are Catholics who disagree with this stuff. I am an ex-Catholic but I left a church where the priest wisely was against this too-high elevation of Mary.

A human cant be the spouse of God.

God is too Almighty for a human to even be at that level.

Mary is a sister in Christ that we will see in heaven, but she is not to be prayed to or considered as having divine powers like omniprecense--being able to hear the millions of prayers of pilgrims.

The Pope seems more intent on Mary then Jesus and that has concerned me. His Robes should say ALWAYS YOURS JESUS!


I go by the Bible on this rather then tradition.

Let's look at the Four Marian Dogmas.

1.  Mary is the Mother of God.  

2.  Mary remained a virgin her whole life.

3.  Mary was conceived without sin.

4.  Mary is in Heaven.

All those Marian Doctrines are found in the Bible--just not to YOUR interpretation.  Why is Mary called the Mother of God?  It's not that she is the mother of the Father.  She is the mother of the Son, who is God.  Hence, Mother of God.  In the Bible, we find this.  Mary bore a son, whom she named Jesus.  Jesus is both God and Man.  To deny that Mary is the Mother of God is to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. 

It is YOUR interpretation of Scripture that Mary did not remain a virgin.  It is how YOU interpret "knew" and "until."  This wasn't even disputed by the Reformers.  It's the anti-Catholics who believe that Mary had relations and bore other children.  The anti-Catholics feel if they can prove just one teaching of the Most Holy Catholic Church wrong, then their little theory on the Church being the harlot of Babylon will come true.  They don't do this out of love. 

Mary was conceived without sin.  It is YOUR interpretation that she was not.  We believe, from the Bible, that Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant, chosen to be pure to bear God the Flesh as the old Ark was made from pure gold and bore God the Word.

It is YOUR interpretation that Mary was not assumed into Heaven.  From Revelations 12, we believe Mary is in Heaven.

I like your comment about how you go by the Bible.  So did the Reformers.  Why is it you disagree with them on these Marian teachings?  They didn't.  They disagreed on the invocation of saints, which these teachings have nothing to do with.

http://mariology.com/sections/reformers.html 

http://www.kencollins.com/poll-01.htm

http://www.shasta.com/sphaws/reformersvsfundies.html

Enjoy.

 

[Budge]

Can you let up on the "anti-Catholic" accusations? I do not consider you an anti-Protestant or anti-fundamentalist for disagreeing with me.


I would be curious as to what you would think of the stuff in this book:

found an interesting book at the used book store the other day. It cost me a dollar. This one I am tempted to toss out but it will good for apologetics. This book has incredible viewpoints in it....it is titled"Contemporary Insights on a Fifth Marian Dogma". Published in 2000, the editor is Dr. Mark Miraville, thats the doctor from Steubenville heading up the group promoting the Co-Redemptrix dogma.

So all quotes are from that book.

I have more and more considered this possible doctrine and I know the day it is passed, Ill probably call up every Catholic I know and witness about it. Some of course Ive witnessed to. At least I have 2 friends who said theyd leave if it ever was. My worry is the spindoctors would use the "co" doesnt mean equal but "with" excuse and trick them. This book has that repeated over and over. One thing I found myself asking was...why is this necessary even? Why use such a word?

Multiple cardinals and bishops wrote segments.

Now on to the excerpts
********************************************

"As the Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Adovacate, she is at the heart of the Trinitarian action of santification, always and forever as creature, but yet at the heart, because she co-operates so uniquely and intimately inn the Trinitarian work of redemption"

"It is interesting to note that in 1930 our Blessed Mother revealed to Fatima visionary, SIster Lucia, the five greatest offenses against her Immaculate Heart. Three of the five offenses deal with the denial of the dogmatic and doctrinal truth about her. To deny Our Lady's Dogma and doctrines is to deny her very person, her very heart."

(The above should show that the priorities of the apparition arent about Christ but her own elevation)

page 43

*************************************************

"God wishes to establish devotion to her Heart. At Akita, the "Fatima of the East", the approved apparitions which took place in the 1970s, our blessed Mother said, "I alone am able to save you from the calamaties that approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.This is how central Our Blessed Mothers role is in the salvation of the world and in the mitigation for our troubled world"

page 47-48

(Again the visions try to destroy trust in Christ--(who is only present to send chastisements) and to put that trust in Her)
For me the statement... "I alone am able to save you" proves this point)

"Applying this principal of Providence and free will by our desire for the solemn declaration of the Dogma, we must understand that only when our Holy Father, in his freedom as Vicar of Christ, proclaims this Marian truth on the highest level of revealed dogmatic truth, will our Lady be releasted to mediate the special graces necessary for our human situation. In a sense her hands are bound by our freedom. She does not force herself our hearts.
She must be invited freely. And that is why until, our beloved Holy Father makes the proclamation that rests in his heart she cannot fully mediate the power God desires for her to have...."

page 48

***********************

In this one chapter, apparitions demand this doctrine.!!!! This happened in Amsterdam in the 1950s. I found this point very interesting....

From chapter entitled "The Theological Relevance of Our Lady of All Nations and the Amsterdam Apparitions" by Msgr. Arthur B. Calkins

"As far as I am able to determine, this appeal (for this doctrine to be named) from a series of relevations made in Amsterdam to a humble and simple Dutch woman, Ida Peerdeman (1906-1996) from 25 March 1945 to 31 May 1959. In the course of these Our Lady disclosed that she wished to be known as "The Lady of All Nations"

"After the domatic definition of the Assumption by Pope Pius XII on 1 November 1950, Our Lady told Ida that the definition had to precede "the last and greatest dogma" that of Mary CoRedemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, for which the picture (picture she asked visionary to paint of her) and prayer were to prepare the way"

The apparitions words:

Listen Well! From the onset the Handmaid of the Lord was chosen to be CoRedemptrix. Tell your theologians that they can find it all in their books!...I am not bringing a new doctrine. I am now bringing old ideas."

p 218-219


**********************************

From chapter entitled
"The Specific Message of the Lady of All Nations Regarding the Fifth Marian Dogma" by Father Peter Kos

Apparition words...

"April 15, 1951".......Now however the Father and the Son want to send the "Lady" thoughout the whole world as the Redeemer of mankind"

!

"April 29,1952 Repeat this after me:"The new Dogma will be the dogma of the Co-Redemptrix' Notice I lay special emphasis on 'co'. I have said it will arouse much controversy. In the suffering and bodily, the Lady, the Mother has shared; she has always gone before. As soon as the Father elected her, she was Co-Redemptrix with the Redeemer, who came into the world as Man-God. Tell that to your theologians".......

and this one the last ....keep in mind this book has imprateurs from TWO Cardinals...

"June 15, 1952: After the this the Lady gazes in front of her for a long time then she begins to speak again, saying: The Lady who once was Mary. Only at the departure of the Lord Jesus did co-redemption have its beginning.

p 228-229


My not agreeing with Catholic Marian doctrines has nothing to do with the Ho of Babylon stuff. I have read Orthodox articles where they disagree on some.

As for amillenialism--and translation of Rev 12 being Mary instead of Israel it makes no sense.