All Graces Through Mary?

[pax]

I think our Holy Father's devotion to our Blessed Mother is beautiful, and I don't believe he would make her more than she actually is.

Devotion to Mary will lead to devotion to Christ one way or another. Mary herself submits to God alone, and so should we. When you get into the "serve" and "submit" to Mary, I think you are starting to get into the realm of private Devotions which are not required for belief (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by pax
I think our Holy Father's devotion to our Blessed Mother is beautiful, and I don't believe he would make her more than she actually is.

Devotion to Mary will lead to devotion to Christ one way or another. Mary herself submits to God alone, and so should we. When you get into the "serve" and "submit" to Mary, I think you are starting to get into the realm of private Devotions which are not required for belief (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Then it shouldnt be called devotion, it should be called blasphemy.

I cant believe the RCC hasnt denounced this "devotions." My priest for RCIA said that "if anyone worships Mary, send them to a priest, quick!"

Now someone can say that they dont worship her, but if they pray to her, serve her, submit to her, etc, that is worship in my book.

 

[kern]

"serving" and "submitting" does not mean worship. Doesn't the Bible say the women should submit to their husbands? Doesn't it also say that slaves should serve their masters, and that people should serve and submit to the rightful government of the region?

-Chris

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Doesnt Jesus say that nobody can serve two masters? I choose to serve Jesus, how about you?

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by Stormy
I like what you say here.

It does seem like some Catholics have false devotion. I am probably getting the wrong impression but it seems that the Pope himself is too into Mary.

Mary should not be made to overshadow Christ.

 

Look everyone I am going to remain very patient and I will try to stay calm realizing that no one here means to make offensive comments, I understand were trying to achive "faith that seeks understanding."

I admit I find it very difficult to post with all the different threads, can we keep all the Mary questions in one thread, would that be okay?

 

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Yeah that sounds all well and good, but when people take it a step further, like devoted has shown me, and add words like "serve Mary" and "submit to Mary" I get upset.

The first commandment says we serve and submit to God alone and Jesus said the same thing.



See? The next thing he did was add this into the mix:



I am not giving my will to Mary and I won't be a Catholic if I am required to believe this. That would suck, because I agree with everything else 100%

 

sOul.,Well then if you agree with everything else then you agree that the Church can not teach error right?

You are not the first that struggles with teaching. Do you want to be one of those that said to our lord "This is to hard, who can accept it?" Do you want to be one of those that stay and disobey the teachings of the church, (like we see so many do on the birth control issue), do you want to be one of those that think they can be Catholic and pick and choose their own doctrine? Do you want to be one of those that leave all the beauty and truth that is in our Church because they could not accept like the crowd that left Jesus.

We are called to accept, not understand all that "Mother" church purposes for our belief. Only through the light of the Holy Spirit will you understand. You know that with out the help of the Holy Spirit you can't come to understand this. You must pray about this.

Keep in mind there is another that said they would never serve our lady and that was Satan. It is he that causes all this confusion over the Mother of God and he hates her more than he hates Christ because it was she, a mere creature something beneath him that did him in with her fiat. Why do you think he went after Eve? Why do you think he goes after Women today demeaning them and exploiting them? Why do you think he attacks women, motherhood? Because he hates THE woman. That's why.

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by Stormy
Mary is perfection? I thought that no person that walked this Earth was perfect by himself other than Jesus.

It is not the fact that Mary is perfect that I debate rather that you say that she is perfection "herself". If she is perfect it was not by her hands but instead the perfection was given to her by God.

Do I make any sense??

It just seems like we are walking a very fine line. If we are not extremely careful Mary could become a false god in at least some of our eyes.

I love your Pope and wish that he could remain pope forever. But at the same time I hope that the next pope will refrain from the need to make Mary more.

(sigh)...oh boy, Mary was conceived with out sin this is why she is perfect. She was saved by the merits of Christ that God applied to her at her conception in anticipation of Jesus' sacrifice. She is the most perfectly created human God has ever or will ever create. She is his masterpiece and this is why she is so pleasing to him.

She has never committed a sin in her life, she was sinless. She was not born in original sin like we are, she was cleansed of any stain of sin. She unlike Eve did not disbelieve God but believed him all the way up to Calvary.

Can you imagine that? Being so one with God that you would offer your own son up to God's will even if it meant death for him? She had to trust in his word, believe that this was God's will, She did not have any special powers or anything, she was a human like you and I accept she was not blinded by sin but she was human, she cried and felt sorrow and she loved her son with a mother's love, but she also believed in God's promise and in his word and she did the will of God even if it cost her, her son.

When you pray the rosary this is what you mediate on. The life of Jesus as seen by Mary. Mary takes you on a tour of the life of her son as seen through her eyes.

What I mean by perfection herself is, she is the picture of perfection, as perfect as a human can be.

And I love this pope too and he will be remembered as Pope John Paul the great I am sure. Privilege are we to have such a dedicated and faithful to the Church pope in these crazy times of disobedience but his devotion to Mary is the key to his holiness, it is not a hindrance to it.

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by pax
I think our Holy Father's devotion to our Blessed Mother is beautiful, and I don't believe he would make her more than she actually is.

Devotion to Mary will lead to devotion to Christ one way or another. Mary herself submits to God alone, and so should we. When you get into the "serve" and "submit" to Mary, I think you are starting to get into the realm of private Devotions which are not required for belief (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

You are right on track don't ever stop praying to Mary she will only lead you more deeper in love with Jesus. And at age 15 I am very impressed with your wisdom.

 

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Then it shouldnt be called devotion, it should be called blasphemy.

I cant believe the RCC hasnt denounced this "devotions." My priest for RCIA said that "if anyone worships Mary, send them to a priest, quick!"

Now someone can say that they dont worship her, but if they pray to her, serve her, submit to her, etc, that is worship in my book.

 No sOuljha, I think I can clear this up for you. Only one who wish to offer the sacrifice of the mass up to Mary would be worshiping her. Submitting all you have to her is not worship. Worship is offering sacrifices to her. We do not nor have I said that one should offer a sacrifice to her and for her benefit. I said that we submit to her all that we have so that she along with us will the offer what ever we have up to God. Nothing is offered to her alone and for her. Ask your priest about this? And see if he doesn't say the same thing.

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Doesnt Jesus say that nobody can serve two masters? I choose to serve Jesus, how about you?

 Jesus and Mary are inseparable, how is serving one not serving the other? And before you ask how are they are inseparable I will answer this way; Mary is the inseparable spouse of the holy spirit, scripture tells you this and Jesus and the holy spirit are one of course so that makes Mary not a part of the trinity but inseparable from them. It does not say that she is equal to or better than or a part of in a divine way, it only means that she is in union all the time with the holy trinity. She is his Mother and spouse and she is inseparable from the one truine God and so you are not serving two masters, you are serving but only one. Mary will only point you in their direction.

 

[kern]

Mary is both the mother and the spouse? That's rather....unusual.

-Chris

 

[devoted]

How so?? The trinity is a mystery. How do we know that there are three persons but one God?

Jesus is the son and the second person of the Holy Trinity and Mary gave birth to him so that makes her his mother. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity and the "God," "conceived by power of the Holy Spirit" that caused her to conceive along with her consent that makes her his spouse. Do you now see how it is possible. The trinity is a mystery and your not going to figure it out 100 % .

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by devoted
 Jesus and Mary are inseparable, how is serving one not serving the other? And before you ask how are they are inseparable I will answer this way; Mary is the inseparable spouse of the holy spirit, scripture tells you this and Jesus and the holy spirit are one of course so that makes Mary not a part of the trinity but inseparable from them. It does not say that she is equal to or better than or a part of in a divine way, it only means that she is in union all the time with the holy trinity. She is his Mother and spouse and she is inseparable from the one truine God and so you are not serving two masters, you are serving but only one. Mary will only point you in their direction.

Ok, let me get this straight.

Mary is inseparable from the Trinity, but she isn't part of it.

WHAT?

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Ok, let me get this straight.

Mary is inseparable from the Trinity, but she isn't part of it.

WHAT?

 Yes she is inseprable but she is not a part of it, and again this is the first time your hearing this?? How long have you been a Catholic? In your parish are there any devotions practiced there, like the Sacred Heart devotion, etc?

Look, if you don't want to have a devotion to our holy mother than you don't have to in order to be Catholic, but you do have to accept what the Church teaches about her and that she is intercessor, Mother, spouse of the holy spirit. What about you, are you married? Aren't you and your spouse one flesh so to speak are you not inseparable in that manner?

Before I get questions on 'married' stop thinking of this in human terms. No Mary and the Holy Spirit are not 'married' in the human sense, that's ridiculous, but she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit by which she conceives Jesus. The Holy Spirit asked Mary did not force Mary. It was consensual that the two, Buy the power of the Holy Spirit, not Mary's power, only with her fiat was Jesus conceived. I think that makes her spouse and the Church does say that she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. So as I am sure you know we can not separate any persons from the trinity, father, son, and spirit so Mary is inseparable from the trinity in the regard that she is the mother of God and the spouse of the Holy Spirit. All this means is that where ever the holy spirit is there also is Mary and more that the holy spirit finds devotion to Mary in a soul, the more pleased he is to dwell in that soul.

There is nothing erroneous about this. Talk to your priest.

Again if you don't want to have a devotion to her or one so deep then you don't have to but this is the secret to true holiness and sanctity. Read the lives of the saints and you will see. Read Maximillan Kolbe he was one of the most devoted. Read Fatima and the words of our lady to the children. She is the fast track to Jesus, meaning the fast was to holiness.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

How long have you been a Catholic?

I am in RCIA classes, so sorry if I am not up to your standard of understanding.

 

[devoted]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I am in RCIA classes, so sorry if I am not up to your standard of understanding.

 I did not mean that as an insult I am trying to get a perspective on where you are coming from and now I understand.

Look you need to be careful that, if you are going to speak to non-Catholics about the faith that you know what you are talking about.

I am uncomfortable myself doing this; this is why I like to post the text from the CCC so I will not miss lead. Once they hear something whether it be a myth or not it is hard to convince them of what we really believe, you yourself are serving as an example of this.

Be careful of what you say make sure you researched the information before you give it out because you could be doing great damage in giving out miss information. I do not at all claim that I know everything and so I do not like to speculate about beliefs. It is hard and it is a fine line that we tread on.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by devoted
 I did not mean that as an insult I am trying to get a perspective on where you are coming from and now I understand.

Look you need to be careful that, if you are going to speak to non-Catholics about the faith that you know what you are talking about.

I am uncomfortable myself doing this; this is why I like to post the text from the CCC so I will not miss lead. Once they hear something whether it be a myth or not it is hard to convince them of what we really believe, you yourself are serving as an example of this.

Be careful of what you say make sure you researched the information before you give it out because you could be doing great damage in giving out miss information. I do not at all claim that I know everything and so I do not like to speculate about beliefs. It is hard and it is a fine line that we tread on.

Nothing I have ever said about the Church here has been wrong, and you can search my posts for any "myths" I have given out about the Church.

I do not accept this "serve" Mary idea, nor do I find it anywhere in the Catechism.

 

[panterapat]

Try to look at the mediatrix role in this way:

Jesus came to earth through the body of Mary. Without Mary, whom Jesus chose, Jesus would not have been born.

Jesus continues to come to us through Mary in a spiritual way. She despenses the graces given by God.

Here God has been consistant. He came bodily through her, and He continues to come spritually through her.

Remember Pope John Paul II's motto: Totus Tuus. Totally yours (Mary).

It is all a great mystery, but who are we to question God's decisions?

UNDERSTAND! Mary is not worshiped! Mary is subject to God! Mary's holiness is a merit given to her by God! Mary is the perfect reflection of God's Will! One will not err in truly following Mary for she will tell us "Do whatever He tells you"!

 

[Wolseley]

Mary is both the mother and the spouse? That's rather....unusual.

Not at all. Mary is the Daughter of God the Father; Mother of God the Son; and Spouse of God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Wolseley
Not at all. Mary is the Daughter of God the Father; Mother of God the Son; and Spouse of God the Holy Spirit.

Hey, that makes a lot of sense Wols!