All Generations shall call me Blessed

[Axion]

Good Day, Axion

I think I understand your point here. You do not accept the BDAG translation you feel they impose a prefeered translation to arrive at their translation and in doing so they have been dishonest to the Greek in this passage. I can not comment on this issue you raise as I am no Greek scholar, But I do know that the BDAG is widely used by all Catholics and catholics for the bases of NT Greek work.

I have tried to be fair in my posting of information in this matter I have used a number of Lexicons and refered others to Raymond Brown's work on this issue "whom is RC scholar and historian" who agrees with the findings of the Lexicons I have posted. Axion do you have a couple of NT Greek scholars who would up hold the translation that you hold?

I am still miffed by the way Kenny and you are fighting for a translation that is not been proven to be correct, I know you have a reason it just excapes me at this point of time.

Hello, BBAS,

We are not "fighting for a translation that is not been proven to be correct" as you allege. We are fighting against the unwarranted decision of certain people to try to alter the translation of charis (and its derivatives, charitoo and kecharitomene) from Grace to Favour, in the singular case where the word refers to Mary.

In other words, those on your side of the argument have decided to alter the translation of this word in this one case. It is therefore up to them to present convincing etymological evidence to justify this change in scripture. So far there has been none.

I have looked at the site Kenny linked to regarding charitoo, which BDAG apparently argues means favour. Following the links to where the word Charitoo (Strongs 5487) is used elsewhere in the New Testament of the KJV, how do we find it translated? -

In every occassion we find charitoo translated as GRACE.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of GRACE and truth.

1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and GRACE(Charis) for GRACE (Charitoo).

Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his GRACE,

15:11 But we believe that through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through GRACE:

20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the GRACE of God.

20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his GRACE, which is able to build you up

Rom. 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of GRACE and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of GRACE.

12:3 For I say, through the GRACE given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his GRACE,

5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from GRACE.

Eph. 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his GRACE, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his GRACE;

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487

 

[Philip]

Don't forget

Ephesians 2:5-8
even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace (charis) you have been saved, and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace (charis) you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- ​

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Also, here is this thread from the IDD.

I have left some non-Catholic posters in here. OBOB still apply, if you want to join with the thread it must only be to ask questions. Any debating will be deleted and warnings will be issues.

Enjoy!


Thank You,
JeffreyLloyd
CF Moderator: Team Faithfulness

 

[ps139]

What I'm getting at is this. Does anyone think that all the letters and Gospels were originally written in Greek?

If you do, I have something for you that might come as a suprise.

Surprise me Larry

 

[BBAS 64]

Hello, BBAS,

We are not "fighting for a translation that is not been proven to be correct" as you allege. We are fighting against the unwarranted decision of certain people to try to alter the translation of charis (and its derivatives, charitoo and kecharitomene) from Grace to Favour, in the singular case where the word refers to Mary.

In other words, those on your side of the argument have decided to alter the translation of this word in this one case. It is therefore up to them to present convincing etymological evidence to justify this change in scripture. So far there has been none.

I have looked at the site Kenny linked to regarding charitoo, which BDAG apparently argues means favour. Following the links to where the word Charitoo (Strongs 5487) is used elsewhere in the New Testament of the KJV, how do we find it translated? -

In every occassion we find charitoo translated as GRACE.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of GRACE and truth.

1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and GRACE(Charis) for GRACE (Charitoo).

Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his GRACE,

15:11 But we believe that through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through GRACE:

20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the GRACE of God.

20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his GRACE, which is able to build you up

Rom. 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of GRACE and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of GRACE.

12:3 For I say, through the GRACE given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his GRACE,

5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from GRACE.

Eph. 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his GRACE, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his GRACE;

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487

Good day Axion,


The Question I have is do you have any Greek NT works that would allow for such a translation? I have posted many to support my position including one whom is RC. You claim to be fighting "unwarranted decision of certain people" just to keep this in the for front these people are amoung the top scholars in the world. Axion there is a clear difference between a concordance and a serious Lexicon to determine the Greek intent of a word or phrase.

Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[Jason1646]

Hello, BBAS,

We are not "fighting for a translation that is not been proven to be correct" as you allege. We are fighting against the unwarranted decision of certain people to try to alter the translation of charis (and its derivatives, charitoo and kecharitomene) from Grace to Favour, in the singular case where the word refers to Mary.

In other words, those on your side of the argument have decided to alter the translation of this word in this one case. It is therefore up to them to present convincing etymological evidence to justify this change in scripture. So far there has been none.

I have looked at the site Kenny linked to regarding charitoo, which BDAG apparently argues means favour. Following the links to where the word Charitoo (Strongs 5487) is used elsewhere in the New Testament of the KJV, how do we find it translated? -

In every occassion we find charitoo translated as GRACE.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of GRACE and truth.

1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and GRACE(Charis) for GRACE (Charitoo).

Acts 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his GRACE,

15:11 But we believe that through the GRACE of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through GRACE:

20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the GRACE of God.

20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his GRACE, which is able to build you up

Rom. 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of GRACE and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of GRACE.

12:3 For I say, through the GRACE given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his GRACE,

5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from GRACE.

Eph. 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his GRACE, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his GRACE;

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487

Axion,

Can I ask what Greek New Testament text you are referencing? In all the Greek texts I have, charitoo is only used in Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6.

~Jason

 

[BBAS 64]

[nodis]

 

[KennySe]

*bump*

 

[Axion]

Good day Axion,


The Question I have is do you have any Greek NT works that would allow for such a translation? I have posted many to support my position including one whom is RC. You claim to be fighting "unwarranted decision of certain people" just to keep this in the for front these people are amoung the top scholars in the world. Axion there is a clear difference between a concordance and a serious Lexicon to determine the Greek intent of a word or phrase.

Peace to u,

BBAS

Sorry not to have responded earlier. I didn't notice that this thread had been revived.

By asking whether I have "any Greek NT works that would allow for" the translation of Charitoo (Strongs 5487) as GRACE, I presume you mean, "do I have any modern LEXICONS that show this?"

To tell you the truth, I haven't looked. I don't have a library of Lexicons. My point is that Lexicons express opinions. They are of little value if they are not based on biblical (not just ancient) Greek, for Biblical Greek uses words like charis in entirely different ways to casual, civil, Ancient Greek. Even when a Lexicon refers specifically to biblical Greek, the definitions in it are still based on the judgement and opinions of the lexicographer. Since the only legitimate way a lexicographer can define the meanings of words in biblical Greek is to examine the usage of a particular word in the bible, we can cut out the middle man and see how the word charitoo and its derivatives are translated in the New testament.

In my previous post I looked up the word charitoo, and its variants, in the New Testament, and in all of fourteen occasions I found it used, (between Matthew and Ephesians - where I gave up) it was translated as GRACE, and not as "favour". There was only ONE exception - where it referred to Mary in Luke 1,28!

I think this is quite conclusive. And the same pattern continues through the remaining books of the NT. Therefore it seems that the lexicographers who stand behind the modern bible translations only change their minds that the meaning of charitoo is GRACE; 1.) Where it is used of Mary, and 2.) in some reference texts.

What these people DO, (when translating the bible) is infinitely more valid than what they SAY they do, (when writing Lexicons). If the definition of charitoo is "favour" as the lexicons you quote imply, then ALL of the verses I have quoted should have been altered from GRACE to favour. When this happens, I will take the Lexicons you quote at face value.

 

[Axion]

Axion,

Can I ask what Greek New Testament text you are referencing? In all the Greek texts I have, charitoo is only used in Luke 1:28 and Ephesians 1:6.

~Jason

Jason,

If you visit this link

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm#S5487

You will see that I am using the standard Strongs Greek word definitions from the Textus Receptus[/].
Charitoo itself, in its basic form, does not appear in the New Testament, what appears are the three grammatical forms listed.

You will see that there are considerably more than two references for Charitoo.

 

[KennySe]

Axion, and all.

I bumped this thread, as the topic of Blessed Mary had come up in a new inquiry. I wanted to bump this up as the information given by Axion is very indepth.

I didn't intend this thread to "continue on".

But, hey, I'm not complaining that Axion has done some follow up here.

 

[ChoirDir]

Matthew was a Jew and a tax collector by trade.

As a Jew he spoke Aramaic.
As a tax collector, he would need to know how to read and speak Latin. I wouldn't rule out That he knew Greek, too.

****

Mark, companion of Saint Peter, who was with him in Rome. Thus Mark spoke Latin.

John, the Beloved Disciple, who spent his latter years in Ephesus, a Greek port.
Thus he spoke Aramaic and Greek.

Kenny Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
I think through the Holy Spirit they all spoke many languages, enabling them to preach
The Word in many lands

 

[KennySe]

ChoirDir, true.

 

[Michelina]

...I bumped this thread.......

O K, I admit it. I'm stupid.

What does 'bump' mean?

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

O K, I admit it. I'm stupid.

What does 'bump' mean?

Bumping the thread back to the top of the list where every one can see it by posting on it again

 

[ukok]

who was it who used to say they 'bummed the thread'...can't put a username to the expression

 

[Aaron-Aggie]

lol

 

[Michelina]

Bumping the thread back to the top of the list where every one can see it by posting on it again

Thanx, Aaron. You are very kind.

So, bumping is a form of approbation.

 

[kimber1]

okay kenny, thanks for the bump i've read through this and man i have to ask y'all. how is it all of y'all are so knowledgeable in all this? i feel like i've been reading greek through this whole thread! (no pun intended )

 

[KennySe]

*another bump*