All Generations shall call me Blessed

MattMMMan17 · Jan 10, 2004

Oblio said:
One man's opinion, even though he be a Saint, does not Tradition make.

Concur I do, Master Yoda.

thereselittleflower · Jan 10, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
TLF,

Not for nothing but:

"Disclaimer: The author is not a Greek scholar, a professional grammarian, an etymologist or philologist, or anything of the sort. She is not in any way an authority. She is an amateur in the true sense: she loves and takes aesthetic delight in language, grammar, and words. She thinks it is fun to understand them and how they work, and gets her kicks from books like The Transitive Vampire and Anguished English. But most of the Greek she knows was learned from reading icons. So why should you take her word for anything? You shouldn't necessarily take it for anything. Anyone who habitually uses sentences like "Me and James went down to the pub for a pint" is questionable! "

Now I am sure te person here at this site does enjoy to dabble in Greek and I am certianly not a scholar in this field, but please for learning from my POV this is very conuter productive.

TLF have you read Mr. Browns work on this passage?

Peace to tou,

BBAS

Then BBAS, why even ask us? According to what you just posted, all of us should post a similar disclaimer to anything we post here, including you . .

It is not that the person is a scholar . the information presented is indeed accurate and very simple to verify when it comes to Greek grammar . . the tenses are indeed correct . .

The reason I posted it is it is very easy to understand, and it gives a perspective of someone like you and me grappling with this issue . .

Whether you agree or not with the conclusions as presented, the the word, the tenses, etc are correct and give a very good picture of what this word says . .

If you would like me to look at Mr. Brown's work, please provide a link . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · Jan 10, 2004

theseed said:
St. Jerome? Who seperatd the Apachrypha from the OT, indicating secondary importance?

Your source for this? Jermone did not separate the 7 books Luther called apochrypha from the rest of the old Testament . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · Jan 10, 2004

theseed said:
KennySe, you argue, that since Jerome was closer to the NT time period and spoke languages fluently, then we can trust his him. How about, the Jews in the OT , before Christ rejected the Apachryphal books, and they spoke those languages and were closer than the Pope of Jerome's period

Whoa! Revisionist history!!

You are going to have to PROVE to me that Christ rejected the so called "apochryphal" books! I think a good study of the history of the scriptures, and not from a fundamentalist protestant view point is in order here . .

Peace in Him!

KennySe · Jan 10, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Kenny,

Thank you for the compliment I know how proud you are to be Catholic. As for me I will just be a catholic and cosider you a brother if that is ok with you.

It's ok with me.

Did not know we were dicussing a latin translation of a Greek word. My latin is worse than my Greek so latin is very Greek to me.

I know a little Spanish, which helps me with some Latin.

My point of showing the Latin, is that Jerome translated from the original Greek texts into the common vernacular of his day, Latin. How did he, who spoke those languages, translate from the Greek to the Latin in A.D. 405?
(rhetorical question)

Luke 1:28 (LV) http://speedbible.com/vulgate/
et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus

gratia plena: full of grace
benedicta: blessed (as in a benediction), consecrated

And we see that the Douay Rheims (1609), which is the Catholic English translation of the Latin Vulgate is:

Luke 1:28 (DR)
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

I was showing the validity of the historical Apostolic Christian belief from the Latin, as the historical Apostolic Christian belief has been shown also from the Greek.

It is West and East, respectively.

**

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html
.

BBAS 64 · Jan 10, 2004

KennySe said:
I honestly do not feel it will impact the discussion. I think we all are "stuck" on our side of the coin

I don't have a Lexicon. I have the internet.

Peace to you also.

Kenny

I do not understand what we are stuck on the meaning of the word is the meaning of the word. What is the hang up Greek lexicons have shown the meaning of the word. Why do you not accept the that as conclusive?

Go Pats!

BBAS

Axion · Jan 10, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
....Lidell-Scott Greek Lexicon

43207 carito,w
cari²to,w, f. w,sw, (ca,rij) to shew grace to any one, tina, N.T.ass. to have grace shewn one, to be highly favoured, Ib.

Thayers Greek Lexicon

5690 carito,w
carito,w, cari,tw: 1 aorist evcaritwsa; perfect passive participle kecaritwme,noj; (ca,rij);

1. to make graceful i. e. charming, lovely, agreeable: passive, Sir. 18:17; tai/j dialoxoij strofai/j caritoumenoj ovfrun, Libanius, vol. iv., p. 1071, 14.

2. to pursue with grace, compass with favor; to honor with blessings: tina, Eph. 1:6; passive, Luke 1:28 (some would take it in these two examples subjectively (R. V. marginal reading endued frith grace)); Ps. 18:26 Symmachus; (Hermas, sim. 9, 24, 3; Test xii. Patr. test. Josephus 1); ecclesiastical and Byzantine writings.* [/size][/font]

Why should we accept your "literal meaning" as compared to these that I listed do some how find fault with their work in the endevor of Greek NT studies?

You have looked up charito in your lexicons. The word used by the angel to Mary however is kecharitomene.

The basic root of Kecharitomene is actually Charis. Perhaps you might look that word up. It means Grace in new Testament terms, although it can also be translated favour.

Charito is simply a grammatical form, which means endowed with CHARIS.

Now as I have pointed out, in the New Testament, Charis is translated GRACE not favour. Even though either could have been used. We therefore make a false distinction, and become dishonest, if we translate the word "Favour" where it refers to Mary, and "Grace" elsewhere. This is because the usage of Charis in the New Testament, indicates far more than we understand by the English word "favour".

Larry · Jan 10, 2004

This is from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5.

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Mary is blessed. The fact that she was the mother of Christ makes her the most famous among the blessed. In that regard, all generations know that she is blessed. There are countless millions over the ages who are also blessed, but everyone knows Mary by name.

Axion · Jan 10, 2004

Larry said:
This is from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5.

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

I can give you a couple more:

James 1.12 blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life

Rev 22.14 Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of Life and may go through the gates into the city.

Notice anything? where one is declared BLESSED in the New Testament, this is a sign of God's exceptional favour and also the promise of Great heavenly Reward.

Mary is blessed. The fact that she was the mother of Christ makes her the most famous among the blessed. In that regard, all generations know that she is blessed. There are countless millions over the ages who are also blessed, but everyone knows Mary by name.

Look again at the usage of the word blessed above. You will see that the title blessed is a reward for perseverance, for endurance, for purity, for mercy, and for suffering persecution for the Lord.

Do you, or any of us, really begin to equal to Mary in these things? I would hesitate to claim the same blessings as Mary.

There are so many other things that are unique to the Virgin Mary.

She is the Woman Propecied in Genesis 3, Isaiah 7, and Revelation 12, whose seed crushes the head of the serpent.

She was the only one who gave her flesh to the Son of God, and she is uniquely to be blessed throughout all generations.

She is the only human in scripture to be named Kecharitomene, that is, Full of Grace.

Mary was the first human being who did receive Christ. Out of the millions of "decisions" made for Christ, Mary's was the first. Therefore, whatever promises the Holy Scriptures hold for us, Mary already possesses.

KennySe · Jan 10, 2004

Larry said:
This is from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5.

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.

Yes, Larry, that IS from Matthew 5.

And if you use the KJV with Strongs, you will see those verses written in English (KJV) and in the Greek. http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B40C005.htm

You can click on the Greek word which repeats throughout the speech and you will see that Strongs #3107 is makarios

a prolonged form of the poetical makar (meaning the same); supremely blest; by extension, fortunate, well off:-- blessed, happy(X -ier).

And if you view Luke 1:28
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B42C001.htm

You can click on the Greek word there which is Strongs #2127 is eulogeo

from a compound of eu - eu 2095 and logoV - logos 3056; to speak well of, i.e. (religiously) to bless (thank or invoke a benediction upon, prosper):--bless, praise.

And you compare the "Blessed" of Mark chapter 5 (makarios) is not the same "Blessed" as Luke 1:28 (eulogia)

makarios: blessed/happy

eulogia: to invoke a benediction upon, prosper):--bless, praise

KennySe · Jan 10, 2004

BBAS 64 said:
Kenny

I do not understand what we are stuck on the meaning of the word is the meaning of the word. What is the hang up Greek lexicons have shown the meaning of the word. Why do you not accept the that as conclusiv

Strong's #5487 charitoo: from cariV - charis 5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:--make accepted, be highly favoured.
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK54.htm#S5487

Somebody "to grace" (a verb) Mary.

What tense of "to grace"? Was she being graced in the present tense? Had she been graced in the past?

The word used was not charitoo "to grace".The verb "to grace" IS the root of the word used: Kecharitomene
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK548.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html

Axion · Jan 10, 2004

Most of the lexicons will list the root as in the BDAG lexicon. In the total coverage of the root the word here "KECARITWNE" as a derived from the root is included in the context of the root. Why is it you do not agree with this definition of the NT Greek?

You are still using Charitoo as the root of Kecharitomene. Caritoo is just a grammatical form. However the root of both words is Charis = Grace. Some people try to define Charitoo separately from Charis, presumably in order to use favour for one and grace for the other. However they are the same word in different grammatical forms. They both refer to grace.

You have reposted the BDAG lexicon, which is the one that, rather dishonestly, does not even mention the word "Grace" here. This it bases on its preferred translation of Luke 1.28, and seems to be defining backward from its preferred translation!

Larry · Jan 10, 2004

Thanks for the links, Kenny.

KennySe · Jan 10, 2004

And if you use that same KJV, you see in Acts 6:8 that Stephen was "full of faith and power".
And the root word charitoo "to grace" is NOT there.

"And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."
.http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B44C006.htm

Larry · Jan 10, 2004

By the way...What language did Luke speak and write?

KennySe · Jan 10, 2004

Luke, according to Holy Tradition was a physician. Thus, he would have very likely have spoken the dominant languages of Latin and Greek, as well as his native tongue.

http://wvwv.essortment.com/newtestamenboo_rkgo.htm

Larry · Jan 10, 2004

How about Matthew?

KennySe · Jan 10, 2004

Matthew was a Jew and a tax collector by trade.

As a Jew he spoke Aramaic.
As a tax collector, he would need to know how to read and speak Latin. I wouldn't rule out That he knew Greek, too.

****

Mark, companion of Saint Peter, who was with him in Rome. Thus Mark spoke Latin.

John, the Beloved Disciple, who spent his latter years in Ephesus, a Greek port.
Thus he spoke Aramaic and Greek.

Larry · Jan 10, 2004

What I'm getting at is this. Does anyone think that all the letters and Gospels were originally written in Greek?

If you do, I have something for you that might come as a suprise.

KennySe · Jan 11, 2004

Axion said:
You are still using Charitoo as the root of Kecharitomene. Caritoo is just a grammatical form. However the root of both words is Charis = Grace. Some people try to define Charitoo separately from Charis, presumably in order to use favour for one and grace for the other. However they are the same word in different grammatical forms. They both refer to grace.

Axion is correct.

He wasn't addressing me, but he could just as well have, for I have been stressing charitoo.

From "Strong's Greek Dictionary", the very link that I have provided before [ http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK54.htm#S5487 ] , we see that charitoo #5487, is indeed:

"from cariV - charis 5485; to grace, i.e. indue with special honor:--make accepted, be highly favoured."

And when we scroll up on that very same page to charis #5485, we see that:

"from cairw - chairo 5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy)."

And as the Lexicon has "grace" as primary definition of this family of words, many Bible scholars choose to interpret it into English with a secondary meaning of "favor".

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