All down to random chance...

[MikeCarra]

Plus, I think we have another case here of special pleading for god to be an exception to the rule, in an attempt to avoid infinite regression.

I.e., god is irreducibly complex by definition, one would think, assuming a god exists.

So, then, god could not have just existed, he must have been created - by an even more complex god.

And using the same logic this creator would have had in turn to have been created - by an even more complex god.

As infinitum.

Yup. All arguments based on "awe" of the design will have to wind up with special pleading for God. The first uncaused cause.

 

[Michael]

Prove it.

You can't.

If you could you would win a Nobel Prize.

In the meantime naturalism is, as always, the default position.

FYI, I hate to burst your bubble, but even if naturalism is the "default position" as you call it, in no way does that imply or necessitate atheism as being the "default" position.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/

 

[Heissonear]

Prove it.

You can't.

If you could you would win a Nobel Prize.

In the meantime naturalism is, as always, the default position.

Except for people who just believe stuff and are just too ignorant of the facts to understand stuff.

Like, e.g., Australian Aborigines.

And many others.

.

You have a point about people who know Him are unable to provide "Spiritual evidence and proof" to Naturalist, proof that God is and that there is Power above the natural.

However, even with this inability to provide proof only the Naturalists have this lack of proof. They are the ones with the real problem. True followers of Him on High don't have the problem of no proof. Nor do that HAVE TO prove He is.

People who have turned to Him and found Him have been given firsthand proof from Him, through His working, even when He reveals Himself to them through His Spirit, such as through the Baptism of the Spirit, even being born again through the work of the Spirit within, the circumcising of the heart through the Spirit. People who have met Him have been changed through His work of the Spirit. Realities Naturalists know not of by true Spiritual Dynamics.

In return people who remain Naturalists have no proof nor evidence revealed to them. They are in the dark about Him on High. They have not been touched by nor made aware of Him on High. Naturalist can only have dust-level comprehension of existence. The Spiritual Realm they are ignorant of.

So from Him on High you are the empty handed, but I am not. This is the reality you cannot set aside, though you try since you state there is no proof - the problem you and other Naturalists have, including Spiritual Poverty.

.

 

[JGL53]

FYI, I hate to burst your bubble, but even if naturalism is the "default position" as you call it, in no way does that imply or necessitate atheism as being the "default" position.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7440288/

Yes, either pantheism (monist idealism) or monist materialism would seem to be the candidate for the default position.

Since the operative word here is "monism" I don't care which way you assume. Six of one, half a dozen of the other to me as regards monism(is that a pun?)

What is ruled out as the default position and must be proved would be some form of hard dualism - theism, for example.

And good luck with that. The Nobel Prize awaits you and your genius.

 

[SkyWriting]

The Workhorse of the Cell
Move along.. Nothing to see that needed to be intelligently designed.

Paul, You didn't make any case for this happening as a natural force or
give examples of how it works in nonliving systems.

 

[JGL53]

.

You have a point about people who know Him are unable to provide "Spiritual evidence and proof" to Naturalist, proof that God is and that there is Power above the natural.

However, even with this inability to provide proof only the Naturalists have this lack of proof. They are the ones with the real problem. True followers of Him on High don't have the problem of no proof. Nor do that HAVE TO prove He is.

People who have turned to Him and found Him have been given firsthand proof from Him, through His working, even when He reveals Himself to them through His Spirit, such as through the Baptism of the Spirit, even being born again through the work of the Spirit within, the circumcising of the heart through the Spirit. People who have met Him have been changed through His work of the Spirit. Realities Naturalists know not of by true Spiritual Dynamics.

In return people who remain Naturalists have no proof nor evidence revealed to them. They are in the dark about Him on High. They have not been touched by nor made aware of Him on High. Naturalist can only have dust-level comprehension of existence. The Spiritual Realm they are ignorant of.

So from Him on High you are the empty handed, but I am not. This is the reality you cannot set aside, though you try since you state there is no proof - the problem you and other Naturalists have, including Spiritual Poverty.

.

You can mouth the phrase "Him on High" umpteen times if you wish and at the end of the day all you have is words. Which proves nothing.

Billions of followers of all the other non-christian religions on earth are just as sincere in their beliefs than you are or ever will be. Why are they dog meat and you the genius here? Why should I take YOUR word for anything and write them immediately off because they see it differently? I see no evidence that you are something special as compared to them.

Naturalism is the default position. No amount of verbiage on your part will change that. An invisible and immaterial person who speaks or thinks a material universe into existence out of absolute nothingness is not a default position.

Do you even understand what the phrase "default position" indicates? I'm beginning to think that you do not.

 

[Inkfingers]

All down to random chance.

Not even remotely.

The universe works on cause and effect - nothing escapes this, so there is no randomness. In fact randomness is just the atheist version of a "god of the gaps" - no evidence for it, but they claim it's existence to fill the spaces in their knowledge.

 

[JGL53]

Not even remotely.

The universe works on cause and effect - nothing escapes this, so there is no randomness. In fact randomness is just the atheist version of a "god of the gaps" - no evidence for it, but they claim it's existence to fill the spaces in their knowledge.

The material universe is defined as the sum total of ALL causes and ALL effects - or the words cause and effect have no meaning, or rather can just mean any old thing.

The universe thus is not a cause itself, nor is it an effect.

The idea of god in the brain of a human is just part of the universe. It is an effect.

That's about it.

 

[Beechwell]

Not even remotely.

The universe works on cause and effect - nothing escapes this, so there is no randomness.

no. cause and effect is merely a property of the macroscopic universe as we observe it. Towards quantum scales it deteriorates towards mere probabilities of possible outcomes.
or can you explain to me what causes one particle to tunnel through an energy barrier while others are deflected?

you may call that a "god of the gaps", but only because you presuppose a wholly deterministic universe, and therefore must assume a gap in our knowledge. but there is no basis for that assumption.

 

[Loudmouth]

Because the finest scientific, human minds have still proved incapable of even remotely approaching the creation - even given all the necessary materials - of something as extraordinarily complex as a single cell of the simplest bacterium.

So you are saying that it couldn't be intelligently designed?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

.

You have a point about people who know Him are unable to provide "Spiritual evidence and proof" to Naturalist, proof that God is and that there is Power above the natural.

However, even with this inability to provide proof only the Naturalists have this lack of proof. They are the ones with the real problem. True followers of Him on High don't have the problem of no proof. Nor do that HAVE TO prove He is.

People who have turned to Him and found Him have been given firsthand proof from Him, through His working, even when He reveals Himself to them through His Spirit, such as through the Baptism of the Spirit, even being born again through the work of the Spirit within, the circumcising of the heart through the Spirit. People who have met Him have been changed through His work of the Spirit. Realities Naturalists know not of by true Spiritual Dynamics.

In return people who remain Naturalists have no proof nor evidence revealed to them. They are in the dark about Him on High. They have not been touched by nor made aware of Him on High. Naturalist can only have dust-level comprehension of existence. The Spiritual Realm they are ignorant of.

So from Him on High you are the empty handed, but I am not. This is the reality you cannot set aside, though you try since you state there is no proof - the problem you and other Naturalists have, including Spiritual Poverty.

.

You have made a good point here!

 

[JGL53]

You have made a good point here!

No he didn't. He just gave us a lot of god talk. That is never helpful.

 

[mzungu]

Not even remotely.

The universe works on cause and effect - nothing escapes this, so there is no randomness. In fact randomness is just the atheist version of a "god of the gaps" - no evidence for it, but they claim it's existence to fill the spaces in their knowledge.

You are correct in the sense that there is no randomness. This, science agrees with you as all causes and effects must follow the laws of physics. However you are mistaken when you claim that randomness is the atheist version of the "god of the gaps". Atheist scientists like all scientists know that randomness simply cannot be as I have stated above.

 

[granpa]

Theists also know that there is no randomness and that everything is cause and effect

 

[Inkfingers]

You are correct in the sense that there is no randomness. This, science agrees with you as all causes and effects must follow the laws of physics. However you are mistaken when you claim that randomness is the atheist version of the "god of the gaps". Atheist scientists like all scientists know that randomness simply cannot be as I have stated above.

Sorry, yes, I wasn't being clear.

What I meant was that it is AN atheist version of a God of the Gaps. I wasn't seeking to imply that all atheists believe in randomness.

 

[Heissonear]

No he didn't. He just gave us a lot of god talk. That is never helpful.

.

Talk, mere words, that is all it will be until you meet Him.

So far you have trashed Him and those who have met Him.

.

 

[cerad]

.

Talk, mere words, that is all it will be until you meet Him.

So far you have trashed Him and those who have met Him.

.

Wow. 56 posts before the first threat. Must be a record for true christians. Congrats.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Posting blind.

The computer graphics in the OP is a simulation. The actual motion is quite jerky, and sometimes takes backward steps.

And each step looks more like this:
Molecular Motor Kinesin Walks Like a Drunk Man - YouTube

 

[JGL53]

.

Talk, mere words, that is all it will be until you meet Him.

So far you have trashed Him and those who have met Him.

.

So the "christian theory of effective proselytizing" is: If a lot of god talk just doesn't work - then the only thing to do is to just slather on MORE god talk.


The old "more is better" ploy.

Sorry, dude. Been there. Had that. Got the T-shirt.

 

[mzungu]

So the "christian theory of effective proselytizing" is: If a lot of god talk just doesn't work - then the only thing to do is to just slather on MORE god talk.


The old "more is better" ploy.

Sorry, dude. Been there. Had that. Got the T-shirt.

At least the Greek Orthodox church forbids proselytising. The church believes that one should join of his free will without any influence nor the fear of eternal damnation. In fact it says that one need not necessarily go to hell if one does not believe but it is better to believe. The important thing here is that one leads his life without stealing, lying, hurting people, etc.