alcohol

[Andy S. Wright]

I see. If you can't make a point, attack!!!

Typical.

BTW, not attacking and certainly not attacking "the Word of God". Just wondering how you can justify holding two diametrically opposing viewpoints.

 

[1611AV]

I see. If you can't make a point, attack!!!

Typical.

I've more than made my point, it is you that has attacked, I simply defended. You want a point? answer this. Why did Jesus make the water wine?

 

[98cwitr]

I've more than made my point, it is you that has attacked, I simply defended. You want a point? answer this. Why did Jesus make the water wine?

John 2:11

"He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."

 

[Andy S. Wright]

I've more than made my point, it is you that has attacked, I simply defended. You want a point? answer this. Why did Jesus make the water wine?

Well, if my statement was taken as an "attack" by you then I apologize. I was simply raising a question I've had for years concerning folks who hold the belief system you express.

As to your question here, the "why" has nothing to do with the fact that the KJV version of the Bible uses the word "wine" to describe the beverage Christ turned the water into. My point has to do with someone claiming a translation of the scriptures as inerrant, unedited and perfect yet all of those statements are discreetly swept under the rug whenever the something pops up in the Bible that doesn't line up with our preconceived belief systems.

IMHO, you're attempting to place 20th & 21st century Western culture morals and traditions on a story that took place in 1st century middle east. To say Christ did not partake in drinking wine is tantamount to saying He would not have drank iced tea had he chosen to show up in Texas in 1989. The culture of the area predicates the understanding that wine was consumed by everyone, including Christ. It is only in modern American culture that wine is looked at as the evil spirit of damnation you seem to believe it to be.

Case in point, I have a very dear friend who went to Spain as a missionary in the 80s. About 2 years into his mission work his home church received word that he had been drinking wine during meals with some church members. The home church recalled the man and his family from the mission field and placed him under church discipinary charges for drunkenness.

The fact of the matter is in Spain that's the culture. He wasn't engaging in sinful activity; as a matter of fact, he'd never been drunk. But, all the legalists in his home church, including the pastor, heard was the phrase "he drank wine" and that was all the evidence needed to pass judgment and carry out sentence. To say that decision affected him is an understatement of biblical proportions.

In short, better be sure what the Bible says is dictating your beliefs, not visa versa. The Bible says "wine". I believe God knows the difference between "wine" and unfermented fruit of the vine. Either the Bible is the Word of God or it isn't. If you're a literalist then you can't change the words that don't line up with your view of God without sounding like a fool to the rest of the world.

Blessings,

ASW

 

[1611AV]

No answer? BTW you edited your post @ 3:21. I already quoted what you said @ 3:15 Don't be sneaky. You were wrong attacking me and my 1611 "stuff" which I believe to be the Word of God.

I have my opinions and others have theirs. No one is arguing that it was not wine, only if it had alcohol in it or not. I believe it was non alcoholic wine.

Just because it tasted good does not mean it had alcohol in it. There are non alcoholic wines today that beat out fermented wine in taste.

BTW I still have a good point to make after you answer my question.

 

[1611AV]

John 2:11

"He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him."

Are you saying the people at the wedding party put their trust in him because of the miracle of making water into wine?

 

[98cwitr]

what does the Bible say?

does it say guests? No...it says disciples...read...the...passage....

As much as I want to get into this KJV stuff...I'm going to refrain

 

[1611AV]

Well, if my statement was taken as an "attack" by you then I apologize. I was simply raising a question I've had for years concerning folks who hold the belief system you express.

As to your question here, the "why" has nothing to do with the fact that the KJV version of the Bible uses the word "wine" to describe the beverage Christ turned the water into. My point has to do with someone claiming a translation of the scriptures as inerrant, unedited and perfect yet all of those statements are discreetly swept under the rug whenever the something pops up in the Bible that doesn't line up with our preconceived belief systems.

IMHO, you're attempting to place 20th & 21st century Western culture morals and traditions on a story that took place in 1st century middle east. To say Christ did not partake in drinking wine is tantamount to saying He would not have drank iced tea had he chosen to show up in Texas in 1989. The culture of the area predicates the understanding that wine was consumed by everyone, including Christ. It is only in modern American culture that wine is looked at as the evil spirit of damnation you seem to believe it to be.

Case in point, I have a very dear friend who went to Spain as a missionary in the 80s. About 2 years into his mission work his home church received word that he had been drinking wine during meals with some church members. The home church recalled the man and his family from the mission field and placed him under church discipinary charges for drunkenness.

The fact of the matter is in Spain that's the culture. He wasn't engaging in sinful activity; as a matter of fact, he'd never been drunk. But, all the legalists in his home church, including the pastor, heard was the phrase "he drank wine" and that was all the evidence needed to pass judgment and carry out sentence. To say that decision affected him is an understatement of biblical proportions.

In short, better be sure what the Bible says is dictating your beliefs, not visa versa. The Bible says "wine". I believe God knows the difference between "wine" and unfermented fruit of the vine. Either the Bible is the Word of God or it isn't. If you're a literalist then you can't change the words that don't line up with your view of God without sounding like a fool to the rest of the world.

Blessings,

ASW

I was simply raising a question I've had for years concerning folks who hold the belief system you express.

I would love to discuss this with you Brother. If you ever want to.

Lord Bless,

 

[Andy S. Wright]

I believe it was non alcoholic wine.

Here is where we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[98cwitr]

Here is where we'll have to agree to disagree.

let's look at the passage and really comprehend what it's saying. When the governor says "too much to drink" what does that suggest? How can you have too much non-alcoholic wine to drink? Well, unless you're stomach literally full of na wine, then I would take it to mean you are becoming inebriated to the point where it's socially unacceptable (in context of course).

Those that understand Greek may be able to shed better light on the literal translation of these passages though.

 

[1611AV]

what does the Bible say?

does it say guests? No...it says disciples...read...the...passage....

As much as I want to get into this KJV stuff...I'm going to refrain

I asked you if you believe the guests believed because of the miracle. Not what the passage said. Also regarding the KJV stuff, I don't blame you for refraining. That book will shred you up.

 

[98cwitr]

I asked you if you believe the guests believed because of the miracle. Not what the passage said.

I believe what the Bible says, sir.

That book will shred you up.

 

[1611AV]

I believe what the Bible says, sir.

And just what does that Bible of yours tell you in Matthew 17:21?

Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.(KJV)

 

[1611AV]

Nothing but the sound of crickets!

 

[Andy S. Wright]

I would love to discuss this with you Brother. If you ever want to.

Lord Bless,

Sure. Feel free to PM me if you don't want to discuss this in a more public setting. Up to you though, I'm good either way.

Just a personal aside, my home PC is on the fritz so my responses may be delayed over this three day weekend.

Thanks bro,

ASW

 

[98cwitr]

Nothing but the sound of crickets!

Patience, sir, please...I'm at work.

And just what does that Bible of yours tell you in Matthew 17:21?

Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.(KJV)

Matthew 17:21

"but this kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting."

Relevance to the topic at hand please?


Andy, do you believe that John the Baptist drank wine in his lifetime?

 

[1611AV]

Patience, sir, please...I'm at work.



Matthew 17:21

"but this kind does not come out except by prayer and fasting."

Relevance to the topic at hand please?


Andy, do you believe that John the Baptist drank wine in his lifetime?

You can't tell me what the your "bible" says in Matthew 17:21 because it's not in that book you call a bible. Neither is:

Matthew 17:21 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting." (KJ 1611 AV)

Matthew 18:11 -- COMPLETELY removed
"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." (KJ 1611 AV)

Matthew 23:14 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 7:16 -- COMPLETELY removed
"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 9:44 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 9:46 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 11:26 -- COMPLETELY removed
"But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 15:28 -- COMPLETELY removed
"And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors." (KJ 1611 AV)

Luke 17:36 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."(KJ 1611 AV)

Luke 23:17 -- COMPLETELY removed
"(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)"
(KJ 1611 AV)

John 5:4 -- COMPLETELY removed
"For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had." (KJ 1611 AV)

Acts 8:37 -- COMPLETELY remove. It's deletion makes one think that people can be baptized and saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sounds Catholic. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
(KJ 1611 AV)

Acts 15:34 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still." (KJ 1611 AV)

Acts 24:7 -- COMPLETELY removed
"But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands," (KJ 1611 AV)

Acts 28:29 -- COMPLETELY removed
"And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves." (KJ 1611 AV)

Romans 16:24 -- COMPLETELY removed
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." (KJ 1611 AV)

I John 5:7 -- Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. In the NIV it says,

"For there are three that testify:"
Compare the NIV reading with the following Jehovah's Witness reading--

"For there are three witness bearers,"
What are you NIV readers missing? What does the real Bible say?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (KJ 1611 AV)
This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the trinity. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses leave it out. They do not believe in the trinity and they do not believe that Jesus is God. Why does the NIV leave it out...? Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible.

Do you believe in the triunity of God? If so, then this deletion should offend you. People are wresting and perverting the scriptures to their own destruction.

AND MANY MANY MORE....

 

[Andy S. Wright]

Andy, do you believe that John the Baptist drank wine in his lifetime?

Well, aside from the locusts and wild honey, we're not privy to John's dietary choices each and every day from birth to death. Considering his calling and vocation in the plans of God I would speculate that he abstained from wine or any strong drink. This abstinence would not be due to the inherent sin in the liquid but in the dietary restrictions placed on him by God.

Does John's position as the herald of the Messiah preclude similar dietary restrictions on Christ? I know of no scriptures indicating specific dietary restrictions on Christ. I know many people get the terms Nazarene and Nazarite confused and thereby assume Christ followed the Nazarite order which does come with dietary restrictions; this is not the case, however.

What I do know is there is no scripture in any version of the Bible you can name that specifically commands total abstinence from drinking wine. There's plenty of scripture commanding abstinence from drunkenness but drinking wine does not automatically make one a drunkard.

Humanity has abused everything God has created for our sustinence, healing and even pleasure. We abuse food, medicines, sex, music and so much more. God doesn't command abstinence from eating because of the potential dangers of gluttony. The same for herbal remedies, sex or any of these other commodities.

Truth of the matter is, one of the fruits of the spirit is "temperance" which is a $5 religious word that means self-control. The child of God is given the ability to exercise restraint where unrepentant sinners generally would not. That isn't to say Christians can't commit the sin of excess; we do it all the time, actually. But God has given us the ability to enjoy the fruits of our creator without delving into self destructive behavior. That's part of the liberty in Christ Paul talks about in Galatians among other places.

That said, I will not exercise my liberty if I know it will be a stumbling block to others. That's a clear command in scripture and one I follow as much as in me is. The flip side of that coin is to not sit in judgment or levy condemnation to those who may not have the same conclusions on these greyer areas of scripture as I do; to not enter into "doubtful disputations" (Romans 14:1) as it were.

I could go on, but I think I've said enough. This is my belief on this topic. Do with it what you will.

ASW

 

[desmalia]

yes. Does the Bible say how many people were there? No. It could have been the entire town for all we know. I think it's reasonable to assume that if the governor was there...there were A LOT of people there as well. If you read verse 10, it also suggests that wine was alcoholic in content as well....then Jesus brought out the best wine.

The history of Jewish weddings is actually really interesting. Not only were they HUGE, but they also lasted for days. Nothing like the typical Western weddings that last for a few hours.

You can't tell me what the your "bible" says in Matthew 17:21 because it's not in that book you call a bible. Neither is:

Matthew 17:21 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting." (KJ 1611 AV)

Matthew 18:11 -- COMPLETELY removed
"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." (KJ 1611 AV)

Matthew 23:14 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 7:16 -- COMPLETELY removed
"If any man have ears to hear, let him hear." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 9:44 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 9:46 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 11:26 -- COMPLETELY removed
"But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." (KJ 1611 AV)

Mark 15:28 -- COMPLETELY removed
"And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors." (KJ 1611 AV)

Luke 17:36 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."(KJ 1611 AV)

Luke 23:17 -- COMPLETELY removed
"(For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.)"
(KJ 1611 AV)

John 5:4 -- COMPLETELY removed
"For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had." (KJ 1611 AV)

Acts 8:37 -- COMPLETELY remove. It's deletion makes one think that people can be baptized and saved without believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Sounds Catholic. What are you NIV readers missing?
"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
(KJ 1611 AV)

Acts 15:34 -- COMPLETELY removed
"Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still." (KJ 1611 AV)

Acts 24:7 -- COMPLETELY removed
"But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands," (KJ 1611 AV)

Acts 28:29 -- COMPLETELY removed
"And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves." (KJ 1611 AV)

Romans 16:24 -- COMPLETELY removed
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." (KJ 1611 AV)

I John 5:7 -- Vitally important phrase COMPLETELY removed [also deleted from the Jehovah's Witness "Bible"]. In the NIV it says,

"For there are three that testify:"
Compare the NIV reading with the following Jehovah's Witness reading--

"For there are three witness bearers,"
What are you NIV readers missing? What does the real Bible say?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (KJ 1611 AV)
This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the trinity. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses leave it out. They do not believe in the trinity and they do not believe that Jesus is God. Why does the NIV leave it out...? Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible.

Do you believe in the triunity of God? If so, then this deletion should offend you. People are wresting and perverting the scriptures to their own destruction.

AND MANY MANY MORE....

Brother, it is unfortunate that many of the KJV-O crowd assume the rest of us must automatically prefer the NIV. But as you get to know the crowd around here you'll find most of us don't care for that translation. Just because we're not only-ists does not mean that we're automatically fans of the NIV. I know I'm not. My Bible does have those verses. Just FYI.

 

[98cwitr]

Well, aside from the locusts and wild honey, we're not privy to John's dietary choices each and every day from birth to death. Considering his calling and vocation in the plans of God I would speculate that he abstained from wine or any strong drink. This abstinence would not be due to the inherent sin in the liquid but in the dietary restrictions placed on him by God.

Does John's position as the herald of the Messiah preclude similar dietary restrictions on Christ? I know of no scriptures indicating specific dietary restrictions on Christ. I know many people get the terms Nazarene and Nazarite confused and thereby assume Christ followed the Nazarite order which does come with dietary restrictions; this is not the case, however.

What I do know is there is no scripture in any version of the Bible you can name that specifically commands total abstinence from drinking wine. There's plenty of scripture commanding abstinence from drunkenness but drinking wine does not automatically make one a drunkard.

Humanity has abused everything God has created for our sustinence, healing and even pleasure. We abuse food, medicines, sex, music and so much more. God doesn't command abstinence from eating because of the potential dangers of gluttony. The same for herbal remedies, sex or any of these other commodities.

Truth of the matter is, one of the fruits of the spirit is "temperance" which is a $5 religious word that means self-control. The child of God is given the ability to exercise restraint where unrepentant sinners generally would not. That isn't to say Christians can't commit the sin of excess; we do it all the time, actually. But God has given us the ability to enjoy the fruits of our creator without delving into self destructive behavior. That's part of the liberty in Christ Paul talks about in Galatians among other places.

That said, I will not exercise my liberty if I know it will be a stumbling block to others. That's a clear command in scripture and one I follow as much as in me is. The flip side of that coin is to not sit in judgment or levy condemnation to those who may not have the same conclusions on these greyer areas of scripture as I do; to not enter into "doubtful disputations" (Romans 14:1) as it were.

I could go on, but I think I've said enough. This is my belief on this topic. Do with it what you will.

ASW

Excellent observation, sir. You are well versed...as you should be of a man of your experience