alcohol

[98cwitr]

AND MANY MANY MORE....

not in my Bible it's not, it says what I posted (obviously you didn't read what I posted, you just quoted me in your haste), Ill check all the verses but Matthew 7:21 is there...thank you for jumping to conclusions without asking me what Bible that I do read, sir. Clearly, your wit has outdone me.....

 

[1611AV]

The history of Jewish weddings is actually really interesting. Not only were they HUGE, but they also lasted for days. Nothing like the typical Western weddings that last for a few hours.



Brother, it is unfortunate that many of the KJV-O crowd assume the rest of us must automatically prefer the NIV. But as you get to know the crowd around here you'll find most of us don't care for that translation. Just because we're not only-ists does not mean that we're automatically fans of the NIV. I know I'm not. My Bible does have those verses. Just FYI.

Actually that is not true. But, I do know just by the way people quote scripture what bible they are in. In this case I read 98cwitr bio page.

He uses the NIV. He quotes the NIV except when called out by the KJV. Do you know that just because of my name tag I have people arguing with me just for the sake of arguing? When they push to much, I push back. I defend the Word of God. If I come off as rude or arrogant thats just because I am grounded and stand firm in the Word. People don't like that.

I don't say Im always right because nobody is but the Bible stands as perfect.

Non KJVO will use multiple bibles to fit their position. When they argue with us they use many versions. We don't have that luxury. We stand corrected and convicted by the true Word of God in the KJV itself.

What is very interesting is we have two majority groups, one that uses the KJV only and another that will use everything but the KJV.

Lord Bless,

 

[1611AV]

not in my Bible it's not, it says what I posted (obviously you didn't read what I posted, you just quoted me in your haste), Ill check all the verses but Matthew 7:21 is there...thank you for jumping to conclusions without asking me what Bible that I do read, sir. Clearly, your wit has outdone me.....

You may want to change your personal info page. It says you use the NIV

 

[Andy S. Wright]

Do you know that just because of my name tag I have people arguing with me just for the sake of arguing? When they push to much, I push back. I defend the Word of God. If I come off as rude or arrogant thats just because I am grounded and stand firm in the Word. People don't like that.

So, am I to understand with this line of reasoning that it's ok to be "rude or arrogant" because you're "grounded and stand[ing[ firm in the Word"? I don't recall the scriptures that sanction rudeness and arrogance in the name of Biblical and doctrinal purity.

I'll say I can come across as rude or arrogant and that's because I'm a flawed sinner who easily gets in the flesh when my buttons get pushed. I'm certainly not going to blame my belief system or God or any other scenario to justify being rude.

As for people not liking your admitted rudeness, you seem to wear this as a badge of honor of some kind. I'm sure that falls into the "the world will hate you because they hated me" line of thought. However, I don't recall any scriptures where God taught His children to fight among themselves or to divide and conquer one another over the greyer issues raised in scripture (such as which version of the Bible is divinely sanctioned).

In short, being "rude and arrogant" to anyone, especially your brethren, is not the way God instructed his people to conduct themselves (John 13:34-35). Even if your conclusions are right, communicating truth in an ugly way will win no one to your side of the argument.

I don't say Im always right because nobody is but the Bible stands as perfect.

Non KJVO will use multiple bibles to fit their position. When they argue with us they use many versions. We don't have that luxury. We stand corrected and convicted by the true Word of God in the KJV itself.

What is very interesting is we have two majority groups, one that uses the KJV and another that will use everything but the KJV.

Lord Bless,

Can't speak for others, but I've been "guilty" of using the KJV AND other versions in my studies. Certainly there are some bad translations out there but I have personally benefited from a more balanced approach to Bible study. Not saying using only the KJV is a bad thing. But, I do not believe God is going to be doling out punishment to those that used other translations or greater rewards to those who only used one version over another.

 

[desmalia]

Actually that is not true. But, I do know just by the way people quote scripture what bible they are in. In this case I read 98cwitr bio page.

He uses the NIV. He quotes the NIV except when called out by the KJV. Do you know that just because of my name tag I have people arguing with me just for the sake of arguing? When they push to much, I push back. I defend the Word of God. If I come off as rude or arrogant thats just because I am grounded and stand firm in the Word. People don't like that.

I don't say Im always right because nobody is but the Bible stands as perfect.

Non KJVO will use multiple bibles to fit their position. When they argue with us they use many versions. We don't have that luxury. We stand corrected and convicted by the true Word of God in the KJV itself.

What is very interesting is we have two majority groups, one that uses the KJV only and another that will use everything but the KJV.

Lord Bless,

See, that's also a false assumption. One group holds to an old English translation (one that I'm sure all of us at least appreciate and many of us also use, btw), and the other (at least most around here) hold to the original languages and would rather go to those writings than simply hold to an English translation.

Additionally, even with all this division, I think you'll still find we do agree on the essentials, even if we do differ on some things.

 

[Hentenza]

Hentenza, you have looked at 98cwitr post and assumed I said that. Read my post again and you will see I did say Jesus made the water into wine.

K

Again what I was demonstrating is that the source was water not fruit and therefor was non-alcoholic.

The fact that it tasted really good does not support the notion that it had alcohol. It simply supports the truth that Jesus can do all things.

Lord Bless,

Brother, I do give you that in ancient times wine was not overly alcoholic. They used to make it into sort of a paste (consistency of honey), for storage purposes, and then add water to it to drink it. However, it was still fermented. The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia (vol. 12, p. 533) states that at least in the rabbinic period it was diluted with water. The most common word in the NT for wine is the Greek word "oinos". It is a general word that simply refers to the fermented juice of the grape.

 

[1611AV]

So, am I to understand with this line of reasoning that it's ok to be "rude or arrogant" because you're "grounded and stand[ing[ firm in the Word"? I don't recall the scriptures that sanction rudeness and arrogance in the name of Biblical and doctrinal purity.

I'll say I can come across as rude or arrogant and that's because I'm a flawed sinner who easily gets in the flesh when my buttons get pushed. I'm certainly not going to blame my belief system or God or any other scenario to justify being rude.

As for people not liking your admitted rudeness, you seem to wear this as a badge of honor of some kind. I'm sure that falls into the "the world will hate you because they hated me" line of thought. However, I don't recall any scriptures where God taught His children to fight among themselves or to divide and conquer one another over the greyer issues raised in scripture (such as which version of the Bible is divinely sanctioned).

In short, being "rude and arrogant" to anyone, especially your brethren, is not the way God instructed his people to conduct themselves (John 13:34-35). Even if your conclusions are right, communicating truth in an ugly way will win no one to your side of the argument.




Can't speak for others, but I've been "guilty" of using the KJV AND other versions in my studies. Certainly there are some bad translations out there but I have personally benefited from a more balanced approach to Bible study. Not saying using only the KJV is a bad thing. But, I do not believe God is going to be doling out punishment to those that used other translations or greater rewards to those who only used one version over another.

I had a feeling you would bite on this. But it's because of your pre conceived notion that "KJVO" are that way.

So, am I to understand with this line of reasoning that it's ok to be "rude or arrogant" because you're "grounded and stand[ing[ firm in the Word"?

I'm not any more rude or arrogant than any other Christian. But, when defending the Word of God (KJV) I am viewed that way by those who "don't like the KJV. Thats not my problem.

I don't recall the scriptures that sanction rudeness and arrogance in the name of Biblical and doctrinal purity.

Me Neither.

I'll say I can come across as rude or arrogant and that's because I'm a flawed sinner who easily gets in the flesh when my buttons get pushed.

Well as a Saved sinner I can to. But I don't. I just use lots of scripture to do my arguing for me.

I'm certainly not going to blame my belief system or God or any other scenario to justify being rude.

Me neither.

As for people not liking your admitted rudeness

I never admitted to being rude.

you seem to wear this as a badge of honor of some kind. I'm sure that falls into the "the world will hate you because they hated me" line of thought. However, I don't recall any scriptures where God taught His children to fight among themselves or to divide and conquer one another over the greyer issues raised in scripture (such as which version of the Bible is divinely sanctioned).

You really don't like KJVO position, do you?

In short, being "rude and arrogant" to anyone, especially your brethren, is not the way God instructed his people to conduct themselves (John 13:34-35). Even if your conclusions are right, communicating truth in an ugly way will win no one to your side of the argument.

Nobody wins anyone to their side of their argument in this place. And thats not my MO. I just defend my Bible.

Can't speak for others, but I've been "guilty" of using the KJV AND other versions in my studies. Certainly there are some bad translations out there but I have personally benefited from a more balanced approach to Bible study. Not saying using only the KJV is a bad thing. But, I do not believe God is going to be doling out punishment to those that used other translations or greater rewards to those who only used one version over another.

I never said God would punish anyone for using a translation other than the King James 1611 AV.

In the short time I have known you. You have attacked my position as a "KJVO"

You believe Jesus made fermented wine and ordered it served to a bunch of drunks.

You believe God is not God enough to preserve His Word.

You are on me just like many other people are on me because the truth is, you don't like what I stand for. (Belief that God has preserved His Word in one book, the King James 1611 AV)

I am a Christian too, remember that the next time you try to define me as what you have been taught I am.

Lord Bless,

 

[Hog Red]

three reasons not to drink,

a friend actually drank himself to death, was found dead in his apartment surrounded by empty bottles all over the floor.

a coworker and good friend is finally sober after 30 years, cant tell you all of the destruction in his life and family over the years.

my father in law was an alcoholic but was so ashamed when his wife and then 5 year old daughter saw him behind bars after he was arrested that he quit cold turkey.

regardless of whether the Bible does or doesn't say anything about it why do it.
none of the people i referenced ever thought drinking would be a problem for them.

 

[1611AV]

K



Brother, I do give you that in ancient times wine was not overly alcoholic. They used to make it into sort of a paste (consistency of honey), for storage purposes, and then add water to it to drink it. However, it was still fermented. The 1901 Jewish Encyclopedia (vol. 12, p. 533) states that at least in the rabbinic period it was diluted with water. The most common word in the NT for wine is the Greek word "oinos". It is a general word that simply refers to the fermented juice of the grape.

I agree, maybe I should have used a better word than fermented as some juices are naturally slightly fermented. But I think people know what Im talking about as I know what they are talking about. The OP argument was why cant we drink since Jesus did. Well we know Jesus did not drink wine as we have today, not even close. The wine he made was not intoxicating anyone IMO. And my original argument was were dose the Bible say Jesus drank wine. Thats when my posts started getting quoted out of context.

As far as the wine used for thy stomachs sake, that was for a medical reason. We as Christians should not drink alcohol. But I never came out and said that until now. I was giving my opinion just as others have.

BTW there is a difference in new wine and old wine. I didn't even bring that up. I didn't want the thread to explode

Lord Bless You Sister,

 

[desmalia]

FYI, Hentenza is a man.

And "You believe God is not God enough to preserve His Word." Could potentially constitute as a flame. (Aside from being a baseless accusation against a brother).

not that anyone is reading my posts anyway, lol

 

[Hentenza]

I agree, maybe I should have used a better word than fermented as some juices are naturally slightly fermented. But I think people know what Im talking about as I know what they are talking about. The OP argument was why cant we drink since Jesus did. Well we know Jesus did not drink wine as we have today, not even close. The wine he made was not intoxicating anyone IMO. And my original argument was were dose the Bible say Jesus drank wine. Thats when my posts started getting quoted out of context.

As far as the wine used for thy stomachs sake, that was for a medical reason. We as Christians should not drink alcohol. But I never came out and said that until now. I was giving my opinion just as others have.

BTW there is a difference in new wine and old wine. I didn't even bring that up. I didn't want the thread to explode

Gatta put it in new wineskins. lol

Lord Bless You Sister,

Pssst, not a sister. The kids in my avatar are 3 of my granddaughters. Don't fret though. Others have made the same mistake.

 

[Hentenza]

And "You believe God is not God enough to preserve His Word." Could potentially constitute as a flame. (Aside from being a baseless accusation against a brother).

not that anyone is reading my posts anyway, lol

The KJVO argument has been going on since 1611. lol!!! These days I don't bother anymore.

 

[98cwitr]

You may want to change your personal info page. It says you use the NIV

that's the main version I read...I am not limited to one translation though

ok, checked my NIV Bible at home...you're absolutely right, these verses are left out. You ask what we are missing...but I tell you that we miss nothing if we are to take Scripture in it's entirety even given NIV...these points are still driven home...

 

[1611AV]

Gatta put it in new wineskins. lol




Pssst, not a sister. The kids in my avatar are 3 of my granddaughters. Don't fret though. Others have made the same mistake.

Sorry bout that brother, I never look at the icons.

Lord Bless

 

[1611AV]

FYI, Hentenza is a man.

And "You believe God is not God enough to preserve His Word." Could potentially constitute as a flame. (Aside from being a baseless accusation against a brother).

not that anyone is reading my posts anyway, lol

Oh, of course I get the "flame" warning. But if you read the thread you will see Ansy S. Wrights first post was directed at me. And he made fun of my tag and and insulted my opinion based on the fact that I read the King James 1611 AV. Funny how that was overlooked.

Does anyone else think its ironic that the only person arguing the word "wine" doesn't mean "wine" is the one with the KJV 1611 rhetoric plastered all over his profile?


King James Bible is not a version, it is the Word of God!

...except for the word 'wine'. That one's a typo.

 

[Fireinfolding]

That is sorta humourous (if you listen closely) repeat it again...

"King James is the Word of God"

Verses (The King of kings)

"King Jesus is the Word of God"

Maybe more appropriately Jesus the King of kings is Word of God and is the King of King James (version)

 

[1611AV]

That is sorta humourous (if you listen closely) repeat it again...

"King James is the Word of God"

Verses (The King of kings)

"King Jesus is the Word of God"

Maybe more appropriately Jesus the King of kings is Word of God and is the King of King James (version)

Real funny Sis,
But it reads "King James Bible" not King James.
And praise Jesus!!! For Jesus is King of all!!!

 

[Andy S. Wright]

I had a feeling you would bite on this. But it's because of your pre conceived notion that "KJVO" are that way.

I'm not any more rude or arrogant than any other Christian. But, when defending the Word of God (KJV) I am viewed that way by those who "don't like the KJV. Thats not my problem.

Me Neither.

Well as a Saved sinner I can to. But I don't. I just use lots of scripture to do my arguing for me.

Me neither.

I never admitted to being rude.

You really don't like KJVO position, do you?

Nobody wins anyone to their side of their argument in this place. And thats not my MO. I just defend my Bible.

I never said God would punish anyone for using a translation other than the King James 1611 AV.

In the short time I have known you. You have attacked my position as a "KJVO"

You believe Jesus made fermented wine and ordered it served to a bunch of drunks.

You believe God is not God enough to preserve His Word.

You are on me just like many other people are on me because the truth is, you don't like what I stand for. (Belief that God has preserved His Word in one book, the King James 1611 AV)

I am a Christian too, remember that the next time you try to define me as what you have been taught I am.

Lord Bless,

You're right. I'm wrong. Keep on doing what you do and I'll see you on the other side.

Blessings,

ASW

 

[1611AV]

You're right. I'm wrong. Keep on doing what you do and I'll see you on the other side.

Blessings,

ASW

We are both wrong, this is why the Lord says:

Ephesians Chapter 5

1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9(For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth

10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].

18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.


The problem with these forums are in most cases we set ourselves up for sin. Because of Pride.

For now on, you will only find me in areas of this forum that edify.

My apologies Brother,

 

[Andy S. Wright]

three reasons not to drink,

a friend actually drank himself to death, was found dead in his apartment surrounded by empty bottles all over the floor.

a coworker and good friend is finally sober after 30 years, cant tell you all of the destruction in his life and family over the years.

my father in law was an alcoholic but was so ashamed when his wife and then 5 year old daughter saw him behind bars after he was arrested that he quit cold turkey.

regardless of whether the Bible does or doesn't say anything about it why do it.
none of the people i referenced ever thought drinking would be a problem for them.

I feel you, brother. Had an alcoholic grandfather who destroyed himself, his family and pretty much every one he ever came in contact with until the day of his death. Much tragedy and sadness comes with this type of abuse.

That said, for the sincere and honest student of the Word the viewpoint concerning alcohol consumption must be divorced from personal experiences. The plain and simple unavoidable fact is there is absolutely no scripture that commands total abstinence from alcohol. To teach otherwise is to bring preconceived bias, no matter how well inentioned, into the translation of scriptures. This is bad exegesis and filled with peril ten times worse than anything an alcoholic can do.

I've seen this a million times if I've seen it once. Someone has a horrible, life-changing experience with alcohol; usually a loved one who has destroyed themselves and others with their abuse. The opinion is formed that alcohol is inherently evil and must be avoided at all costs. Scriptures that talk about "mocking wine" and "strong drink rages" (Proverbs 20:1) are read through those filters and the conclusion is made that God forbids usage of wine or "strong drink". If the student with this conclusion left it at that, it wouldn't be so bad.

Unfortunatey, these conclusions inevitably lead to legalism which makes it mandatory that everyone see "the truth" as the student sees it before fellowship can be enjoyed. In extreme cases, the salvation of anyone who differs with the student is called into question. Judgments are made, lines drawn, divisions built and the unity of the faith is destroyed. Hence the existence of all the splintered denominations within Christianity today.

The truth is the bible doesn't tell us to avoid alcohol. It commands avoidance of drunkeness. It warns against the deception of alcohol. It makes it very clear that these items can LEAD to sin but are not in and of themselves sin. As I mentioned in an earlier post, everything God has ever given mankind can be (and often are) abused by wicked humanity. That proclivity toward self destruction did not cause God to lay down a list of commands forbiding usage of medicinal herbs, food, sex, music, or alcohol. He commands temperance, self control, moderation, but never total and complete abstinance (I speak of general commandments, not individual ones).

Convincing people who have been hurt by alocohol abusers of this simple fact is difficult because of the foundational belief system usually laid early in the believer's formative years with Christ. Once someone gets something in their head as absolute truth it is easier to drain the Pacific ocean than to get them to see anything differently (see: Pharisees, Saaducees). The actual truth of the matter is not that alcohol is evil, it is that we are. So much easier to blame and legislate the smoking gun instead of the one who pulled the trigger.

I was raised in a fundamental, indepenent Baptist Church. I pastored three fundamental, independent Baptist churches. I held to the same beliefs about wine and alcohol (as well as which version of the Bible was divinely inspired) as many have expressed here. But as I dug deeper into the word and developed a deeper relationship with God I learned just how much personal bias and private interpretaton I brought to the table of Bible Study. The last thing on earth I want is to be guilty of the same sin of pride shown by the Pharisees yet that was exactly what I had been doing. I was a legalst of the legalists and proud of it.

It took a long time for God to break me of that and I am thankful for it even though my departure from "the faith" has cost me dearly over the years.

That is why I react the way I do when I see bad exegesis masquerading as "contending for the faith". The damage done to the Body of Christ by armchair theologians who possess more zeal than they do knowledge is incalculable. I've spent the last 20 years in the trenches and the scars I bear from friendly fire attacks are numerous and painful.

But I digress. Just be careful when studying the Word that you let the Word dictate your beliefs instead of the other way around

Blessings,

ASW