alcohol

[1611AV]

This wine was not of fermented of fruit. It was water. Therefore I doubt if it had any alcohol content. I believe it did not. The guests were already drunk at the time Jesus made the water into wine. To think otherwise, is not wise.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Lord Bless,

OK now that you have all went off on your little rant, lets look at what I said:

I said, "this wine was not of fermented fruit. It was water". (its source was not of fruit but water) "Therefore I doubt it had any alcohol content"

Notice I said "The guests were already drunk at the time Jesus made the water into wine".

Funny the extent some people will go thru when debating me. You make up your own arguments. You take what I say out of context in order to make your argument valid. Just like you do when debating the Bible.

If you want to believe that Jesus would make wine that had alcohol in it and see it served to the very people he would latter preach the Word of God to...

 

[1611AV]

yeah the water that Jesus turned into wine...that proves nothing except that Jesus turned water into wine, just another demonstration of His divine power.. Otherwise the story has no validity or purpose of which it is clearly insinuating...let's try that again, shall we? Now they had vinegar wine...which is just vinegar, so that would be non-alcoholic, but the Bible differentiates between vinegar wine and actual wine.

wine   [wahyn] Show IPA noun, adjective, verb,wined, win·ing.
–noun
1.
the fermented juice of grapes, made in many varieties, such as red, white, sweet, dry, still, and sparkling, for use as a beverage, in cooking, in religious rites, etc., and usually having an alcoholic content of 14 percent or less.
2.
a particular variety of such fermented grape juice: port and sherry wines.
3.
the juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, etc.: gooseberry wine; currant wine.


If you would please turn to the Bible and look up every passage that includes wine (which is 238 instances in all), you will find many also containing the word "drunk" or a lowering of inhibitions, or otherwise clearly being alcoholic in content.

Genesis 9:21
When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.

Genesis 19:32
Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."

Numbers 6:3
he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins.

Numbers 18:27
Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress.
no need to press water!

Isaiah 5:11
Woe to those who rise early in the morning to run after their drinks, who stay up late at night till they are inflamed with wine.

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
Wow...that really contradicts your plight huh?

Luke 1:15
for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.
not looking so good here, bud

I've got 231 more...would you like them too?

Yes, please keep going because you have yet to show me any scripture showing Jesus drinking fermented wine.

Again, you are constructing your own arguments "bud".

 

[1611AV]

Sorry brother but I have to disagree with you in the sense that Jesus turned water into wine not into water. The context of the passage supports the miracle. Wine is wine not water.

9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”

Looks like the wine that Jesus miraculously turned from water was not just wine but an outstanding wine.


BTW- I don't drink out of conviction but I don't judge those who do to moderation.

Hentenza, you have looked at 98cwitr post and assumed I said that. Read my post again and you will see I did say Jesus made the water into wine.

This wine was not of fermented of fruit. It was water. Therefore I doubt if it had any alcohol content. I believe it did not. The guests were already drunk at the time Jesus made the water into wine. To think otherwise, is not wise.

Again what I was demonstrating is that the source was water not fruit and therefor was non-alcoholic.

The fact that it tasted really good does not support the notion that it had alcohol. It simply supports the truth that Jesus can do all things.

Lord Bless,

 

[JCFantasy23]

I guess I'm trying to say that maybe alcohol should be illegal too.

Legalities aside, I think it's pretty clear that the law is not consistent with the Bible's Laws. In the perspective of the Bible, wouldn't alcohol be considered the same as any other mind-altering drug?

No, I don't believe so. I certainly don't think it should be illegal, too much already is.

 

[Hammster]

Again what I was demonstrating is that the source was water not fruit and therefor was non-alcoholic.

why does the source matter?

When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom

The water had become wine. It doesn't say that it tasted like really good kool-aid.

 

[98cwitr]

Yes, please keep going because you have yet to show me any scripture showing Jesus drinking fermented wine.

Again, you are constructing your own arguments "bud".

Read post #5 please.

Hentenza, you have looked at 98cwitr post and assumed I said that. Read my post again and you will see I did say Jesus made the water into wine.
Again what I was demonstrating is that the source was water not fruit and therefor was non-alcoholic.

bwhahahaha, then tell us, since you clearly know...what was "wine" back then and why was it called "wine?" This is completely absurd that you would even make such a claim.

It's base wasn't, is not, and never will be water...it's base is fermentation of something and you can't ferment water...

 

[1611AV]

Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children

Neither do I believe Jesus to be a gluttonous.

 

[1611AV]

why does the source matter?

When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom

The water had become wine. It doesn't say that it tasted like really good kool-aid.

why does the source matter?

Because the true source was Jesus.

 

[jpcedotal]

It is more about drunkenness than just take a sip or drinking a couple.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Can anyone see (at least in part) that being drunken can pertain to being highminded? Because that does appear (at least in part) to be connected to thinking more highly of ourselves then we ought contrasted against being "soberminded"... Have you ever notice that?

This is pretty kool...

Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

Because here it says..

Prov 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

Which is interesting because a metaphor "to be drunken" speaks to this...

Drunken

1) to be drunken 2) metaph. of one who has shed blood or murdered profusely

Drunk also pertains to the blood of others

Rev 17:6 I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints

Which makes sense (again)

Prov 4:17 For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.

Luke 3:14 And he said unto them, Do violence to no man

Sorta the same thing

Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

That which is corruptible or corrupt filled with the wine of violence or themselves with violence it speaks of a corruptible and incorruptible crown

1Cr 9:21 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Again...(what wine were they drinking if the new wine was cut off from their mouth?) Wouldnt it be the wine of violence drunk with the blood (of the same) or done toward others in the body (The saints, which are also His body)?

Joel 1:5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

Paul says (in regards to) being "cut off" BE NOT HIGHMINDED (PRIDEFUL) BUT FEAR ... A CROWN is worn upon the head... it speaks of those who are HEADY) even the crown of pride

Isaiah 28:1 Woe to the crown of PRIDE, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Titus 1:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Romans 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

But here they appear to be "judging after the flesh" of things as Jesus had said "Ye judge after the flesh") Jesus points out the difference between the way John came and how He Himself came... both coming in a different manner

Mat 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

Which was spoken of in

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

But here Jesus says in regards to himself

Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

A winebibber is a wino, if it were non alcoholic (even to their carnal judgment) why would they regard him as such?

And here...One can be drunken but not nessesarily with wine

In Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

Same with

Jerm 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

As speaks to the wine of violence for with (the same) violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down Rev 18:21 Sorta like double to her in that sense.

Though Im sure its speculative concerning whether its grapedrink or the real stuff its not bad in a little quanity

Yet here even moist and dried grapes were a no no...

Numbers 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

So when he says...

1Titus 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Which category would that fall under above given all that was a no no, though we know that the first covenant stood in meats and drinks and divers washings etc. You can see spiritual truths pertaining to the wine, as in the old wine, new wine, drunk but not with wine, the wine of His wrath, the wine of violence etc. Pretty interesting to look into.

 

[Hammster]

Because the true source was Jesus.

So was John deceived into thinking it was wine? Or, say, the Holy Spirit?

 

[Hammster]

Matthew 11:19
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children

Neither do I believe Jesus to be a gluttonous.

But He did eat. So, if you are using this as an argument, you will have to assume that He drank some wine as well.

 

[silence_dogood]

Why do Baptists say that if you’re a Christian you can’t drink? Jesus drank wine. Nowhere in the Bible does it say not to drink, it just says not to get drunk. I don’t drink right now, but that has nothing to do with my faith. (It’s not something my parents taught me, either. My dad likes his beer and wine every now and then.) I just don’t need help making bad choices and driving badly. I don’t see anything wrong with alcohol though. I probably will drink someday when I’m a better driver.

I think you mean "Why do some Baptists..."

I can't speak for anyone but myself. Even though I have no problem with drinking in moderation, as long as (a) it is kept in moderation and drunkenness is avoided, (b) it does not become an idol, and (c) it does not cause you to sin or cause a weaker brother to stumble, I've chosen not to drink.

For a long time, I drank beer in moderation and even the occasional glass of Jameson's. However, as I began to be given more authority and more responsibility in the church, it became increasingly unwise for me to do so for two reasons.

The first is that because I was now a leader and had a position of authority, more and more people were watching me and that means that I had a greater chance of causing a weaker brother to stumble, even if inadvertantly, and that I could cause confusion about the wisdom of drinking alcohol and the Bible's teaching about alcohol.

The second was out of concern that the unsaved, not being aware of the liberty I have in Christ, could be confused by my actions or mistake them for sin and cause my actions to bring disrepute upon the church (again, even if only inadvertantly).

So whether or not you choose to drink is up to you but there are a couple of things you should keep in mind.

1. No drunkenness, moderation only
2. Do not allow alcohol to become an idol
3. Do not allow alcohol to cause you to sin or your use of alcohol to glorify sin
4. Do not do anything that would cause a weaker brother or sister to stumble

 

[Texan40]

I think you mean "Why do some Baptists..."

I can't speak for anyone but myself. Even though I have no problem with drinking in moderation, as long as (a) it is kept in moderation and drunkenness is avoided, (b) it does not become an idol, and (c) it does not cause you to sin or cause a weaker brother to stumble, I've chosen not to drink.

For a long time, I drank beer in moderation and even the occasional glass of Jameson's. However, as I began to be given more authority and more responsibility in the church, it became increasingly unwise for me to do so for two reasons.

The first is that because I was now a leader and had a position of authority, more and more people were watching me and that means that I had a greater chance of causing a weaker brother to stumble, even if inadvertantly, and that I could cause confusion about the wisdom of drinking alcohol and the Bible's teaching about alcohol.

The second was out of concern that the unsaved, not being aware of the liberty I have in Christ, could be confused by my actions or mistake them for sin and cause my actions to bring disrepute upon the church (again, even if only inadvertantly).

So whether or not you choose to drink is up to you but there are a couple of things you should keep in mind.

1. No drunkenness, moderation only
2. Do not allow alcohol to become an idol
3. Do not allow alcohol to cause you to sin or your use of alcohol to glorify sin
4. Do not do anything that would cause a weaker brother or sister to stumble

People accepting leadership positions at our church are required to avoid drinking alcohol in public. The few I know don't drink it at all even though private use isn't strictly prohibited. It's about love and motivation I suppose.

 

[silence_dogood]

People accepting leadership positions at our church are required to avoid drinking alcohol in public. The few I know don't drink it at all even though private use isn't strictly prohibited. It's about love and motivation I suppose.

Pretty much the same with us.

 

[1611AV]

So am I to believe that at he wedding party after all the guests have well drunk. Jesus then produced and served approx. 162 gallons of fermented wine?

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

John 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

You say The same God that said in 1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Also made 162 gallons of fermented wine and ordered served that fermented wine to a bunch of already drunk people?
Yes or No?

Also tell me in John 2:9 what exactly does the Bible say the ruler tasted? Also what exactly did the servants "draw"

John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew; the governor of the feast called the bridegroom.

Maybe the miracle was more than you give Jesus credit for.

 

[98cwitr]

So am I to believe that at he wedding party after all the guests have well drunk. Jesus then produced and served approx. 162 gallons of fermented wine?

yes. Does the Bible say how many people were there? No. It could have been the entire town for all we know. I think it's reasonable to assume that if the governor was there...there were A LOT of people there as well. If you read verse 10, it also suggests that wine was alcoholic in content as well....then Jesus brought out the best wine.

 

[Andy S. Wright]

Does anyone else think its ironic that the only person arguing the word "wine" doesn't mean "wine" is the one with the KJV 1611 rhetoric plastered all over his profile?


King James Bible is not a version, it is the Word of God!

...except for the word 'wine'. That one's a typo.

 

[bubbles881]

No, I don't believe so. I certainly don't think it should be illegal, too much already is.

I don't necessarily think it should be illegal either, but I don't see how this is a valid argument.

 

[1611AV]

Does anyone else think its ironic that the only person arguing the word "wine" doesn't mean "wine" is the one with the KJV 1611 rhetoric plastered all over his profile?


King James Bible is not a version, it is the Word of God!

...except for the word 'wine'. That one's a typo.

This coming from a guy who's biography reads:

Pastor for 20+ years, now retired. Working on becoming a Christian author.

Well, I guess if one job doesn't work out...

Tell me "Pastor" how often did you serve fermented wine at church functions or anywhere for that matter? Hey, if Jesus did it... Why not?

You can attack the Word of God all you want, Satan's been doing it for a long time.