Alcohol

[kern]

Prov 31:6-7, following 3-4 which say that kings and princes are not to drink wine or strong drink.

-Chris

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by kern
Didn't Jesus drink wine? Change water into wine? Tell the disciples to drink wine? What about Ecclesiastes and other places where it tells you to drink?

“Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more” (Prov. 31:6-7; ESV).

-Chris

This is the argument that I get so tired of refuting, I used to use it too, so I deserve to have to correct it.

Did they have any way of chilling juice (to keep it from spoiling) or to have anything besides water?  No.  Are we positive that the wine of Jesus' time was alcoholic?  Of course not.

I quit smoking cigs, and won't touch another drop since I've been born again.  That's my decision and I don't judge anyone (I promise kern I dont) that sees it differently.  However, ask yourself this question...

How can you drink and then tell people that all they need is Jesus?

If all you need is Jesus then why drink.  I can see wonder's argument, but aspirin has the same affect as far as a blood thinner, so I cannot see why someone can't choose the path that will not impair you.

How could I say, all you need is Jesus and fire up a cigarette or drink beer or wine?  I couldn't, but others can, I just disagree wholeheartedly.

btw: the Bible does only mentions drinking wine in excess being wrong or staying up drinking instead of sleeping at night wasn't a great idea either... to paraphrase... but I say, be a witness and a role model and preach Jesus only and prove Jesus only in every thing you do.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by JesusServant

Did they have any way of chilling juice (to keep it from spoiling) or to have anything besides water?  No.  Are we positive that the wine of Jesus' time was alcoholic?  Of course not.

How about the numerous references in contemporary Greek works about drunkenness from wine?

Is there any reason *not* to believe the wine was alcoholic?

How can you drink and then tell people that all they need is Jesus?

If all you need is Jesus then why drink?

This argument can be used for anything. If all you need is Jesus, why go to school? If all you need is Jesus, why work? If all you need is Jesus, why read books? etc.

be a witness and a role model and preach Jesus only and prove Jesus only in every thing you do.

And Jesus himself drank wine, gave other people wine, and told us to drink wine.

-Chris

 

[Outspoken]

Chris, the context of this passage seems to address kings dealing with a different issue, though I'll look into it further. I don't see it advocating getting drunk though.

 

[kern]

Well, I'll be curious to see what context you come up with. I honestly am not sure what that passage is supposed to say. It makes sense, just not from a Christian viewpoint.

-Chris

 

[JesusServant]

Remember kern, you opened the door on this...

Originally posted by kern
How about the numerous references in contemporary Greek works about drunkenness from wine?

Is there any reason *not* to believe the wine was alcoholic?

If you need an excuse from the Bible I'm sure you can get one and go get drunk all you want just like atheists can find some contradiction because their perspective and understanding is flawed and they don't take the time to find out what the Bible ALSO says.

This argument can be used for anything. If all you need is Jesus, why go to school? If all you need is Jesus, why work? If all you need is Jesus, why read books? etc.

School and reading books compared to alcohol is the worst argument I've ever heard.  Reading a book doesn't impair your sense and give you a buzz and make you *feel* good.  Jesus makes me feel good so I don't need it, but apparently some christians do. 

And Jesus himself drank wine, gave other people wine, and told us to drink wine.

-Chris

What else did they have besides water?  And you cannot prove it was alcoholic any more than I can prove it wasn't.  He didn't say cop a buzz of some wizine.  If you feel like drinking or getting drunk is a good witness to non-christians that we worship Jesus Christ and He's all anyone needs, then you are definitely missing something.

You can't even admit I had a point back there, you're just getting defensive.  Do you need me to pray for you on this issue?  I had a problem in my past that I was delivered from, do you need that as well or do you "not have a problem?"  And I'm not being disrespectful here I'm dead serious kern.

 

[kern]

OK, you clearly have strong feelings on this issue -- I do not advocate getting drunk, but I see no problem with having one or two drinks with dinner, or even just for a little relaxation. Is it wrong to drink tea to relax, or for the caffeine?

The burden of proof is on *you* to prove that the wine was non-alcoholic, not on me to prove that it was. If Jesus' wine was non-alcoholic, then there are some strange cultural things going on in that time and place compared to the rest of the Meditteranean world at that time, as well as the Jewish world before this.

-Chris

 

[JesusServant]

Granted.

Can you not even see my point kern?  Do I not have a point at all?  Should we preach that Christ Jesus is our Lord and Saviour and He's all anyone needs and then drink and say, well I need this too?  Do you just not see my point at all?  Am I just that far out in left field?

You shouldn't need alcohol to relax, use prayer, it works as I'm sure you know. 

 

[kern]

I don't see your point, sorry. If someone believe that they *need* alcohol, then that sounds like an addiction.

Someone who has wine or beer with dinner does not *need* alcohol -- maybe he likes the taste. I just don't see any evidence whatsoever in the Bible that social drinking or drinking with dinner is wrong.

-Chris

 

[Rize]

http://www.layhands.com/CanChristiansDrinkAlcohol.htm

This is a good article on the subject. Well considered imo.

 

[Outspoken]

Well do you know who King Lemuel is?

 

[calvinist]

Dear ALL Fellow Enjoyers of the Grape,

I believe that God wants us to be dependent upon Him and nothing else. The term in the Bible

 

[calvinist]

Dear ALL Fellow Enjoyers of the Grape,

I believe that God wants us to be dependent upon Him and nothing else. I think that when it is spoken of to not become drunk with wine, it means becoming dependent upon it, or to become an alcoholic. This is simply my interpretation. Until I'm convicted otherwise, I see no need to change it. However my mind is always open, and I respect the decisions of others not to drink. This topic more or less poses the question if I'm right then are you wrong?
Delighting in God's Limited Atonement,
Calvinist

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by JesusServant
Granted.

Can you not even see my point kern?  Do I not have a point at all?  Should we preach that Christ Jesus is our Lord and Saviour and He's all anyone needs and then drink and say, well I need this too?  Do you just not see my point at all?  Am I just that far out in left field?

You shouldn't need alcohol to relax, use prayer, it works as I'm sure you know. 

I agree that we shouldn't *need* alcohol. But I don't see that as being the point under discussion.

Based on a lot of medical research, I am currently drinking a glass of wine a day. Well, almost every day; I sometimes forget. I got a couple of those 5 liter boxes of cheap wine, and I have a glass sometime in the evening. I have to drink it slowly, or I get tipsy, and that bugs me a lot.

I don't think I'm sinning; I'm doing something for my health which happens to involve alcohol.

 

[kern]

That is a pretty good article. The only point of disagreement I have is this -- I don't believe that drinking one glass of wine for the mild relaxational benefits is a sin, any more than relaxing in a bath or relaxing by listening to music is a sin.

-Chris

 

[seangoh]

The bible uses the word wine, however it is a very general term which refers to unfermented and fermented grapejuice. It is best to do your own study on this issue and find out which kind of wine the Bible might have been referring to in each instance it is used. You would then know whether taking in alcohol is good or bad or ok in moderation.
A good way is way of finding out is the hebrew and greek translation of the word. You can compare verses which talk of "wine" and notice that it would be a different hebrew or greek word translation it uses.
A good article i suggest reading is this

 

[Gideon4God]

I see nothing wrong with a couple of drinks.  The Bible reads "wine" and doesn't cut hairs about grape juice and alcohol.  It was common to drink wine daily.

 

[SoccerAaron]

It is fine in moderation.
To say it is a sin is absurd because Jesus drink wine. (It being less acholic is a baptist myth)

 

[JesusServant]

SoccerAaron said this in Post #38

It is fine in moderation.
To say it is a sin is absurd because Jesus drink wine. (It being less acholic is a baptist myth)

It's not a "baptist myth" btw.  I would call it a fundamental view more than anything.

I never said it was a sin, but anyone who professes that Christ is all you need then drink alcohol is a hypocrit.  Splitting hairs with the word need doesn't matter to the onlooker.  If you don't need it why do it? 

You guys say you do it because it's good for you or because you need it to relax.  I used to use the same excuses myself, but it was because it allowed me to preach one thing and live another.

I don't judge anyone who wants to drink, nor do I think God will condemn someone on Judgment Day if they just had a glass of wine now and then.  But like it or not, Christians are watched and if you tell people that they need Jesus in their lives and you still turn to alcohol to "relax" then they won't take you as seriously, I gaurantee it.

What's even more disturbing is when people say that, "This is what turns people away from Christianity!  You can't tell them they can't drink or they won't give Christianity a second look!"  It's not about doing what it takes to get more members.  That should never be a concern to Christians, or we would waver in many areas of the Gospel.

 

[slightlypuzzled]

On the one hand it is not a sin to drink in moderation, but we must also be very sensitive to our witness and what people will say about it. This calls for maturity and prayer and patience.