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Alchoholic Wine vs. Grape Juice for communion

charles1014

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I recently visited a few Reformed Baptist churches in my area and although none of them serve fermented wine, they did state in their documentation that one day soon they may.

I had a little talk with one of the pastors and asked him what place in Scripture did he find that led him to entertaining that as a possibility. He just told me that although it is a concern to some, it is not so much a concern to others.

I found this interesting because it was the first time I had ever seen it entertained in any Baptist church.

My take on it is that wine is a product that is manufactured through a process of adding yeast. Yeast is referred to as Levin and Levin is referred to as sin. It is interesting to note here that when Christ met His disciples in the upper chamber for the last supper, they did so to also celebrate the passover. The passover was a feast that was not to be associated with any kind of Levin and in fact all levin was to be purged from the home during the time of the feast. If fermented wine was used in the last supper then it would have been a corruption of the passover that Christ was partaking of at the time.

To me then, if fermented wine is to be considered for use in communions, it then adds an element of sin to a very important observance for the Christian. I could never accept that Christ's precious blood was ever tainted with the sin of this world. It is also safe to say that sin tainted blood would never have been allowed to be sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies.
 
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JesusFo11ower

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If wine is a sin then why did Jesus turn water into wine? If it was not alcoholic how did Noah drink it and get drunk? Same with Lot? And if it was wrong, why did Solomon have it at every meal? It is proven that "Wine" is was indeed an alcoholic beverage in the bible because it says "Do not get drunk with wine". Jesus drank alcoholic wine, just not in excess because it is a sin to be drunk with it. I don't think we need to use alcoholic wine in communion, but there is nothing wrong with doing so.
 
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98cwitr

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I post this while having a beer :p

Luke 7:33-35
New International Version (NIV)
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

Why would they call Him a drunkard if it wasn't alcoholic? Not saying that He was drunk [ever] but it seems to me He drank alcoholic wine.
 
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Yekcidmij

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If wine is a sin then why did Jesus turn water into wine?

Why would they call Him a drunkard if it wasn't alcoholic? Not saying that He was drunk [ever] but it seems to me He drank alcoholic wine.

Seems to me that way too. I mean, they're drinking wine at a wedding feast for crying out loud. It's a party! They aren't tee-totaling and they didn't run dry that early of non-alcoholic beverages.

And for those who think Jesus observed traditional Jewish customs - ever heard of Purim? Read what the Talmud suggests should be done on Purim:
Megilah 7b:

Raba said: It is the duty of a man to mellow himself [with wine] on Purim until he cannot tell the
difference between cursed be Haman’ and ‘blessed be Mordecai
 
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sheina

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DID JESUS MAKE ALCOHOLIC WINE?

The following article is by the late Bruce Lackey:

SOME INTRODUCTORY BIBLE FACTS ABOUT WINE:

1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word “wine” can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: De. 11:14; 2 Ch. 31:5; Ne. 13:15; Pr. 3:10; Is. 16:10; 65:8; 1 Ti. 5:23.

2. The context will always show when “wine” refers to alcoholic beverages. In such cases, God discusses the bad effects of it and warns against it. An example would be Gen. 9, Noah’s experience after the Flood. Verse 21, “and he drank of the wine, and was drunken,” clearly refers to alcoholic beverage. Prov. 20:1 speaks of the same thing when it warns us, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” Alcoholic wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people are advocating today, by saying that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone admits that drinking too much is bad; even the liquor companies tell us not to drive and drink, but they insist that a small amount is all right. However, that is the very thing that is deceptive. Who knows how little to drink? Experts tell us that each person is different. It takes an ounce to affect one, while more is necessary for another. The same person will react to alcohol differently, depending on the amount of food he has had, among other things. So, the idea that “a little bit won’t hurt” is deceptive, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!

Prov. 23:30-31 refers to alcoholic wine, because it tells us in the previous verse that those who drink it have woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause, and redness of eyes. What a graphic description of those who “tarry long” at alcoholism. Verses 32-35 continue the same description; context always makes it clear when alcohol is meant.

3. Scripture warns against the drinking of alcoholic wine. The Bible is consistent on this, both in the Old and New Testaments. The two previously quoted passages, Pr. 20:1 and 23:29-35, are good examples of scriptural warnings against consuming alcohol. Pr. 23:32 says “at the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.” Verse 33 shows that it will cause one to look at strange women (that is, not one’s wife) and to say perverse things, or things which he would not say if he were sober. Verse 34 predicts that it will cause death, such as drowning, or loneliness, such as lying upon the top of a mast. Verse 35 warns against numbness (“they have beaten me and I felt it not”) and “addiction (“when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again”).

Prov. 31:4-5 teaches, “It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.” The danger is obvious.

By the way, Prov. 31:6,7 give us the only legitimate use of alcoholic wine in Scripture. “Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.” This would be using it as an anesthetic; a painkiller. But this is not for everyone; he says in v. 6, “unto him that is ready to perish.” Of course, they did not have all the painkillers that we have today. In our time, it would not be necessary to do this. We have many anesthetics available for those who are dying. Then, about the only thing available to the average person would have been some kind of alcohol. Alcohol is a depressant; it is not a stimulant, as some think. After several drinks, one gets dizzy; then he will pass out. So this passage teaches that alcoholic beverage would be only for the person who is ready to die; there would be no hope for his life. All that would be possible would be to ease his pain and help him forget his misery.

Another passage is Isa. 5:11. “Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!” Obviously this is alcoholic, because it inflames. Why does he say, “Woe unto them”? Verse 12 answers, “...they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands.” Everyone knows that when one gives himself to the drinking of alcoholic beverage, he will not be more spiritual, more desirous of learning the Word of God. To the contrary, it causes a person to ignore the Lord. Verses 13-14 reveal two other serious results: people go into captivity (become slaves to something or someone) and Hell enlarges itself! The drinking of alcoholic wine has caused Hell to be enlarged! God does not want anyone to go to Hell; He has given the greatest, dearest gift that He possibly could, to rescue sinners from it. He never made Hell for people. The Lord Jesus Christ said that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt. 25:41). However, because of evil alcohol, Hell has had an enlargement campaign. Here, then, is a clear warning against drinking alcohol, because God does not want anyone to go to Hell.

Isa. 28:7,8 continues the warning. “But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.”

What a tragic thing, that even in the days of Isaiah, the priests and prophets were engaged in the drinking of alcoholic wine! Thus we see that the problem of preachers recommending alcohol is not new. Six hundred years before Christ, demon alcohol had worked its way into religion.

4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent if from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press, Emmaus, PA). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

[Editor: Natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state. The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing.]
*********************************************

However, if you desire to "justify" your use of alcoholic beverages by using "strawmen" ...like Jesus changed the water into fermented wine and Jesus drank fermented wine....don't forget about those brethren who choose abstinence (for biblical reasons) and those brethren you will cause to "stumble" because you insist on your "liberty"....

1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

BTW, drinking in "moderation" is a lie from the devil...no such thing. How much "poison" is too much?
 
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JM

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The arguments against the use of wine, although well meaning, are convoluted. They are based on human piety and not scripture.
Carnality is not measured by what goes into our mouths, but by what comes out (Matt. 15.11) and piety is not measured by our abstention from temporal pleasures (Col. 2.20-23). The fundamentalist mindset is akin to the gnostic mindset which led to asceticism and monasteries. The Reformed understand that all of life is sacred, that is, temporal things are not evil in themselves, neither is non-ecclesiastical employment to be despised if it is lawful, but rather God is glorified in the right use of the things of this world. True godliness is a matter of the heart. Therefore, spiritual pride or neglect is a much greater concern to the Reformed than whether there is a beer in someone’s refrigerator at home. The Reformed view themselves as pilgrims traveling through this world with our eyes and hearts lifted heavenward to the next, which is to say, using the things of this world rightly but not setting our hearts on them but keeping our treasure above and our eyes on Christ (Heb. 12.2). source
A local Presbyterian church I often attend uses both grape juice and real wine. The bulletin has a note in bold at the bottom that reads something like, "wine is in the center ring, grape juice on the outer ring." This is a good halfway point. It allows those who have issues with wine to take part in the Lord's Supper while maintaining the biblical practice of using wine.

Cheers!
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I post this while having a beer :p

Luke 7:33-35
New International Version (NIV)
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ 35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

Why would they call Him a drunkard if it wasn't alcoholic? Not saying that He was drunk [ever] but it seems to me He drank alcoholic wine.

:thumbsup:
 
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MrJim

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The arguments against the use of wine, although well meaning, are convoluted. They are based on human piety and not scripture.
Carnality is not measured by what goes into our mouths, but by what comes out (Matt. 15.11) and piety is not measured by our abstention from temporal pleasures (Col. 2.20-23). The fundamentalist mindset is akin to the gnostic mindset which led to asceticism and monasteries. The Reformed understand that all of life is sacred, that is, temporal things are not evil in themselves, neither is non-ecclesiastical employment to be despised if it is lawful, but rather God is glorified in the right use of the things of this world. True godliness is a matter of the heart. Therefore, spiritual pride or neglect is a much greater concern to the Reformed than whether there is a beer in someone’s refrigerator at home. The Reformed view themselves as pilgrims traveling through this world with our eyes and hearts lifted heavenward to the next, which is to say, using the things of this world rightly but not setting our hearts on them but keeping our treasure above and our eyes on Christ (Heb. 12.2). source
A local Presbyterian church I often attend uses both grape juice and real wine. The bulletin has a note in bold at the bottom that reads something like, "wine is in the center ring, grape juice on the outer ring." This is a good halfway point. It allows those who have issues with wine to take part in the Lord's Supper while maintaining the biblical practice of using wine.

Cheers!

:cool:
 
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98cwitr

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The arguments against the use of wine, although well meaning, are convoluted. They are based on human piety and not scripture.
Carnality is not measured by what goes into our mouths, but by what comes out (Matt. 15.11) and piety is not measured by our abstention from temporal pleasures (Col. 2.20-23). The fundamentalist mindset is akin to the gnostic mindset which led to asceticism and monasteries. The Reformed understand that all of life is sacred, that is, temporal things are not evil in themselves, neither is non-ecclesiastical employment to be despised if it is lawful, but rather God is glorified in the right use of the things of this world. True godliness is a matter of the heart. Therefore, spiritual pride or neglect is a much greater concern to the Reformed than whether there is a beer in someone’s refrigerator at home. The Reformed view themselves as pilgrims traveling through this world with our eyes and hearts lifted heavenward to the next, which is to say, using the things of this world rightly but not setting our hearts on them but keeping our treasure above and our eyes on Christ (Heb. 12.2). source
A local Presbyterian church I often attend uses both grape juice and real wine. The bulletin has a note in bold at the bottom that reads something like, "wine is in the center ring, grape juice on the outer ring." This is a good halfway point. It allows those who have issues with wine to take part in the Lord's Supper while maintaining the biblical practice of using wine.

Cheers!

Dang...Matthew 15:11 strikes the nail on the head...nuff said! :clap:
 
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1 Corinthians 11:21 "For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others, and one is hungry and another is drunk"

So, this statement about the Lord's Supper by Paul makes it abundantly clear that they were using wine, and not some non-alcoholic beverage, which we can understand that non-fermented drinks didn't appear (in churches anyways) until Thomas Welch in the early late 19th Century link to his wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

The early Church drunk wine. Jesus drunk wine, and that is how it was done for centuries.
 
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ThisBrotherOfHis

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I have long been convinced that the wine vs. grape juice argument is ridiculous, and it is obvious that the ancients drank wine. There are no two ways around it. But this ...
A local Presbyterian church I often attend uses both grape juice and real wine. The bulletin has a note in bold at the bottom that reads something like, "wine is in the center ring, grape juice on the outer ring." This is a good halfway point. It allows those who have issues with wine to take part in the Lord's Supper while maintaining the biblical practice of using wine.
... would concern me given that there are a significant number of people in every congregation either recover(ing/ed -- depending on how they want to express it) from problem drinking or alcoholism, or may actually be struggling with the issues currently. For the sake of the "weaker brother" I would think it would be wise not to serve wine in the communion/Lord's Supper.
 
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charles1014

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I have long been convinced that the wine vs. grape juice argument is ridiculous, and it is obvious that the ancients drank wine. There are no two ways around it. But this ... ... would concern me given that there are a significant number of people in every congregation either recover(ing/ed -- depending on how they want to express it) from problem drinking or alcoholism, or may actually be struggling with the issues currently. For the sake of the "weaker brother" I would think it would be wise not to serve wine in the communion/Lord's Supper.
You are certainly correct in your assessment that it would not be wise. It is a shame that so many others don't seem to have a problem in introducing it to the church and what amazes me is that there are many in the Baptist circles that no longer have a problem with it.

The first Lord's supper took place during the feast of unleavened bread. All leaven was to be removed from house where the feast was to be eaten. Since alcoholic wine contains yeast, then alcoholic wine would not have been present. So, if it was not present during the first Lord's Supper, then why do so many insist that it be offered with it today?
 
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mmksparbud

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It is quite obvious that there was alcoholic wine drinking going on---but never during Passover--at the Last Supper--when any form of leavening was strictly forbidden--not only to not be consumed--it could not even be in the house.
 
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ThisBrotherOfHis

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The first Lord's supper took place during the feast of unleavened bread. All leaven was to be removed from house where the feast was to be eaten. Since alcoholic wine contains yeast, then alcoholic wine would not have been present. So, if it was not present during the first Lord's Supper, then why do so many insist that it be offered with it today?
Great point, but "leaven" was not the yeast used in wine making [Note: I've edited this to remove "baking" and replace it with "wine making" -- my error].

It was the "lees," deposits of dead yeast or residual yeast and other particles that precipitate, or are carried by the action of "fining, "
the process where a substance (fining agent) is added to the wine to create an adsorbent, enzymatic, or ionic bond with the suspended particles, producing larger molecules and larger particles that precipitate -- drift to the bottom of a vat of wine -- out of the wine more readily and rapidly." Rather, the source of baking yeast is the tartaric acid resulting from wine making, not that baking yeast was used then, nor now, in winemaking. Therefore, wine was free from leaven.
 
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98cwitr

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It matters little what's actually in the cup. Its what the liquid symbolizes (yes, you heard that correctly) that matters. If you're underage or a recovering alcoholic, by all means, drink grape juice instead of wine.

Very well put ^_^
 
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JM

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What should we do about fat, overweight Christians and the Baptist tradition of potluck meals? Honestly. Where does it end...

Christ Himself instituted the use of wine. That settles it for me.
 
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charles1014

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Great point, but "leaven" was not the yeast used in baking. It was the "lees," deposits of dead yeast or residual yeast and other particles that precipitate, or are carried by the action of "fining, "the process where a substance (fining agent) is added to the wine to create an adsorbent, enzymatic, or ionic bondhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_bond with the suspended particles, producing larger molecules and larger particles that precipitate -- drift to the bottom of a vat of wine -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precipitate out of the wine more readily and rapidly. Rather, the source of baking yeast is the tartaric acid resulting from winemaking, not that baking yeast was used then, nor now, in winemaking. Therefore, wine was free from leaven.
Thanks for sharing that, I will certainly look that up. Every recipe I have found for making your own wine calls for yeast and not a one of them made the distinction as to what type of yeast to use.
 
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