Age of Universe

[Dannager]

And thus lies the crux of the problem of evolution.

Does the Bible lie? If the story is allegorical than perhaps it does..but I don't think so

An allegorical tale isn't a lie. It is a creative use of metaphor and poetic imagery to impart a lesson upon the reader. It, in fact, contains a very important set of truths - that God is all-powerful, is the source of creation, is to be obeyed, and is capable of destroying what he has made.

 

[sampson x]

Not at all, sheesh. Those are the words of the L-RD. How foolish we must seem to Him arguing over *how* He created His universe...when He's already told us

He told us that he created the universe, but the "how" that the Bible uses is obviously not intended as literal truth. I don't think God views this as foolish at all.

I'm not going to take an YEC or Evo stance on this. Just going to say that perhaps we miss that God never told us "How" He created the universe... He told us the source of the "how," His Words and Breath, but He never actually said, "And they popped into existence out of nothing" or "And they evolved from other life forms", He just said that "And it was so." This "And it was so." is why we have Origins discussions. Because we don't know how we went from not to "And it was so." Therein lies the reason for debate.

 

[Dannager]

I'm not going to take an YEC or Evo stance on this. Just going to say that perhaps we miss that God never told us "How" He created the universe... He told us the source of the "how," His Words and Breath, but He never actually said, "And they popped into existence out of nothing" or "And they evolved from other life forms", He just said that "And it was so." This "And it was so." is why we have Origins discussions. Because we don't know how we went from not to "And it was so." Therein lies the reason for debate.

By "how" I believe we were referring to the length of time in which it took God to create the universe. I don't quite see what the issue is.

 

[sampson x]

By "how" I believe we were referring to the length of time in which it took God to create the universe. I don't quite see what the issue is.

Oh, I see. Sorry. I'll try to look closer next time.

 

[shernren]

37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?

How foolish we must seem taking the meteorologists' word that rain comes from clouds which come from hot and cold fronts ... when the Lord has already told us clearly that rain comes in heavenly bottles!

[parody mode off]

 

[sampson x]

How foolish we must seem taking the meteorologists' word that rain comes from clouds which come from hot and cold fronts ... when the Lord has already told us clearly that rain comes in heavenly bottles!

[parody mode off]

Umm, the verse isn't telling us how rain comes down, just that we'd be foolish to think we can actually make it rain...I think. That's what I got from it.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Umm, the verse isn't telling us how rain comes down, just that we'd be foolish to think we can actually make it rain...I think. That's what I got from it.

Except that we can make it rain... cloud seeding and all that. Not so foolish after all!

 

[Dannager]

Umm, the verse isn't telling us how rain comes down, just that we'd be foolish to think we can actually make it rain...I think. That's what I got from it.

Er...whoops. We've been able to make it rain (by dusting clouds) for years now. Could it be that a portion of the Bible was meant as allegory?

 

[sampson x]

Except that we can make it rain... cloud seeding and all that. Not so foolish after all!

In the severely dry places of the world? I thought they could only really do it in less dry places. The verse clearly says it's foolish when it's really dry.

 

[Dannager]

In the severely dry places of the world? I thought they could only really do it in less dry places. The verse clearly says it's foolish when it's really dry.

Yes, actually, if anyone decided to get the money together to do it, they could attempt to alter the pressure currents (all you'd need is some precision release of energy - nuclear devices could do it) in the atmosphere (thereby changing the temperature and thus the humidity level) to the point where clouds began forming as moisture is introduced. Once the coulds have formed, all they need to do is seed them to start the raining.

EDIT: What's important here isn't the semantics of the argument - it's the fact that in the age in which the Bible was written, rain was believed to be a miraculous act. It was outside the realm of current understanding, lacking an explanation, and important to their way of life. Thus, it was attributed to God, whether or not God directly influences weather patterns. The same can be said of evolution and creation. It was outside their current realm of understanding, they lacked an explanation for why they were the way they were, and it was important to their way of life. Thus, it was attributed to God, whether or not God literally created them in six days.

 

[sampson x]

Yes, actually, if anyone decided to get the money together to do it, they could attempt to alter the pressure currents (all you'd need is some precision release of energy - nuclear devices could do it) in the atmosphere (thereby changing the temperature and thus the humidity level) to the point where clouds began forming as moisture is introduced. Once the coulds have formed, all they need to do is seed them to start the raining.

EDIT: What's important here isn't the semantics of the argument - it's the fact that in the age in which the Bible was written, rain was believed to be a miraculous act. It was outside the realm of current understanding, lacking an explanation, and important to their way of life. Thus, it was attributed to God, whether or not God directly influences weather patterns. The same can be said of evolution and creation. It was outside their current realm of understanding, they lacked an explanation for why they were the way they were, and it was important to their way of life. Thus, it was attributed to God, whether or not God literally created them in six days.

True...Very difficult though...

I get your point. Dispute settled.

 

[PNJai]

I think the initial creation event took an instant, but God's creative work continues to the present.

....I'm gonna have to agree with this guy....I didn't vote,however.....