Age of the Universe

[Airaux]

I don't know whether this (or any other) forum on this site is an appropriate place to post this, but I wondered if anyone would like to share any (strictly biblically-based) views as to the age of the Earth/ Universe.

 

[Ken Rank]

I don't know whether this (or any other) forum on this site is an appropriate place to post this, but I wondered if anyone would like to share any (strictly biblically-based) views as to the age of the Earth/ Universe.

All we can do biblically speaking... is use Adam's age forward in time to come to the conclusion that we are about at year 6000. We don't know exactly... but when you run the genealogies that is about what you get.

Some think there is a hint in places like Genesis 1:28 where some English versions use the word "replenish" (as in refill the Earth with people) but that Hebrew word ( mâlê' - H4390) simply means "to fill" so we are left with little else to go on beyond those genealogies.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I don't know whether this (or any other) forum on this site is an appropriate place to post this, but I wondered if anyone would like to share any (strictly biblically-based) views as to the age of the Earth/ Universe.

I go by Gerald Schroeder when it comes to OEC: Old Earth Creationism. When you are looking at Billions of years he believes that each day in Genesis is half the length of the day before. Gerald Schroeder - Articles - Age of the Universe

What this means is that it took God 12.9 Billion years to create Adam and Eve. We then find them in the Garden of Eden 5990 years ago. This could tie in with YEC and the people that believe a day in Genesis is a literal 24 hour day. Even if all time and all the ages are hidden in that literal 24 hour day. As a dispensationalist I believe that a day is equal to 1,000 years and this is what I am most prepared to talk about and discuss. I have spent many years to research and study all of this. We go by the Bible but we look at what science in our day and age has to say about what we read in our Bible.

 

[Ken Rank]

I go by Gerald Schroeder when it comes to OEC: Old Earth Creationism. When you are looking at Billions of years he believes that each day in Genesis is half the length of the day before. Gerald Schroeder - Articles - Age of the Universe

What this means is that it took God 12.9 Billion years to create Adam and Eve. We then find them in the Garden of Eden 5990 years ago. This could tie in with YEC and the people that believe a day in Genesis is a literal 24 hour day. Even if all time and all the ages are hidden in that literal 24 hour day. As a dispensationalist I believe that a day is equal to 1,000 years and this is what I am most prepared to talk about and discuss. I have spent many years to research and study all of this. We go by the Bible but we look at what science in our day and age has to say about what we read in our Bible.

Respectfully Joshua (and I am not saying you are wrong, just trying to make a point to @Airaux) this is what will fill the thread. Ideas like this, where a day might mean one thing or another... and they might be correct. But because it doesn't tell us plainly, "A day here = ____" then it has to remain somebody's idea. Science says the Earth is ___ years old... the bible if taken literally leans more toward a young Earth UNLESS the word "day" is being used abstractly in Genesis.

For me personally... because it says of each "day" that the "there came to be evening and there came to be morning" then it seems to be a day as we know a day. But again, I could be wrong.

 

[joshua 1 9]

All we can do biblically speaking... is use Adam's age forward in time to come to the conclusion that we are about at year 6000. We don't know exactly... but when you run the genealogies that is about what you get.

Bishop Usshers date of 4004BC seems to work out the best. That means that Church Age would have begun on the day of Pentecostal in the year 29 Ad. So the 2,000 year anniversary of the Church will be in the year 2029 Ad. Some people believe this will be the end of the church age. There was a Nano Diamond comet 12,990 years ago. There will be the Apophis comet in 2029. 99942 Apophis - Wikipedia

 

[joshua 1 9]

"A day here = ____" then it has to remain somebody's idea.

This is based on what they call archetypes and more recently paradigms. People can use any word they are comfortable with: allegory, metaphor, Homileties, symbols, parables. Daniel 2:22 "He reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what lies in darkness, and light dwells with him." There are people that believe we can understand what God has "hidden" in our Bible. Clearly the Bible can be taken literal, but even a very literal Bible can have hidden meaning designed to be understood by those who are willing to dig deep to understand the hidden things of God.

 

[Airaux]

Thanks, all, for responding.
I agree that adding up the ages of the genealogies brings us to about 6,000, but there still remains the issue of the meaning of the word "day". I've seen a few debates as to which version is true, particularly between Kent Hovind and Hugh Ross. Hovind says "day" means a 24 hour period; Ross says the word can mean a 24 hour period, a 12 hour period (as opposed to "night") or an unspecified period of time. He turns to the Hebrew word "yom" to back up his claim.
He reckons that science points to billions of years.
I must admit, I've been heavily influenced by secular belief - eg - evolution and an ancient Earth - it actually feels instinctively absurd that the Universe is only about 6,000 years old and Evolution is so ingrained in my psyche.
Actually, to use the word "literal" to refer to a 24 hour day is misleading. Ross points out that the other meanings are also "literal", rather that metaphoric.
I'd like to look further into this subject and welcome any other biblically-based observations anyone would like to share.

 

[Halbhh]

I don't know whether this (or any other) forum on this site is an appropriate place to post this, but I wondered if anyone would like to share any (strictly biblically-based) views as to the age of the Earth/ Universe.

The Bible nowhere says a number for the age of the Universe, though it refers to such as "ancient hills" on Earth, and other wordings like this, helping us understand that vast stretches of time are not long for God:

2 Peter 3:8 Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

So, when we notice that the passage of time is not specified, it's left unknown, in verse 1 of Genesis 1, the time duration before the moment in verse 2:

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The reality is we are not told how long passed in mere time when God created the Universe and the nascent Earth, at first a waterworld, without any distinguishing features, "formless", and initially as it formed, in darkness, until the light came, later.

The time duration before the light came is not specified anywhere in scripture.

This is because it's relatively unimportant, and God wants faith -- belief without easy evidence -- from us.

It would contradict the Bible where we learn God wants faith from us, if there had been a mere numerical age of the Universe given in scripture.

A numerical age could be tested by an unbeliever, who would have to admit it proves God.

That would contradict the Bible extensively, where we learn over and over God wants us to believe without easy obvious proof.

 

[joshua 1 9]

For me personally... because it says of each "day" that the "there came to be evening and there came to be morning" then it seems to be a day as we know a day. But again, I could be wrong.

Everything has to do with your perspective. If we look at an apple tree when does the seed become a tree? It it a tree when the seed first begins to sprout? Does it become an apple tree when the sprout begins to take root? Or is this an apple tree when years later the tree begins to produce fruit, ie apples? According to Jesus if a tree does not produce fruit then it is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. The Bible talks a lot about the first fruit. This is when a tree is whole complete and mature. If you want to say that the seed sprouted and produced fruit all in the same 24 hour day, good luck with that one. Amos 9:13 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills,"

 

[joshua 1 9]

I'd like to look further into this subject and welcome any other biblically-based observations anyone would like to share.

Gerald Schroeder has a interesting perspective on this. Gerald Schroeder - Articles - Age of the Universe

 

[Halbhh]

I don't know whether this (or any other) forum on this site is an appropriate place to post this, but I wondered if anyone would like to share any (strictly biblically-based) views as to the age of the Earth/ Universe.

Unlike the age of the Universe, nowhere given in scripture, it is possible though to calculate the time that has passed since Adam and Eve lost access to the Tree of Eternal Life and beginning from their lives outside of the Garden of Eden. We can calculate that time span starting from after they are outside the Garden, if we assume the genealogies are complete (once we choose which genealogy to use). That's the time estimate you often hear of around 6,000 years from when they were outside the Garden until now.

As to how long passed on Earth while Adam and Eve were inside the Garden ... with Life, with God, the Eternal One, and the Tree of Life.....that timeless special place separated from the ordinary rest of the Earth....

We do not know that time duration anywhere in scripture.

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So, that's 2 key time durations (see post just above from me for the other) which not even the most literal interpreters (I also interpret Genesis 1-3 literally by the way) know.

God choose not to give these 2 time durations.

Why not?

Because easy proof would allow even the most hard hearted cynic to know God exists, and turn, and repent and be forgiven. (see for example https://biblehub.com/mark/4-12.htm and many other instances of this same)

But instead of that, God wants faith (not easy proof).

 

[Ken Rank]

Everything has to do with your perspective. If we look at an apple tree when does the seed become a tree? It it a tree when the seed first begins to sprout? Does it become an apple tree when the sprout begins to take root? Or is this an apple tree when years later the tree begins to produce fruit, ie apples? According to Jesus if a tree does not produce fruit then it is to be cut down and thrown into the fire. The Bible talks a lot about the first fruit. This is when a tree is whole complete and mature. If you want to say that the seed sprouted and produced fruit all in the same 24 hour day, good luck with that one. Amos 9:13 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills,"

I don't need to be convinced Joshua... the age of the Earth just doesn't matter to me. I say that respectfully... if I sound flippant it isn't meant to be. Nobody can use the bible and PROVE with 100% certainty any date. A young Earth conclusion comes the closest but that is ONLY IF "day" or "evening and morning" are meant literally. Since the bible is FULL of metaphors and other abstract methods of communication... nobody can prove it either way. So... I avoid the topic beyond just fun conversation. Too many divide over things like this and that is really sad to me.

I only answered the OP to point out what I just said, nobody can say with 100% certainty either way using only the bible (or anything else for that matter). We just don't know. Even scientific methods can be skewed if God created with the appearance of age. And He did, to some extent, right? Adam wasn't a baby he was created a man... and the trees were already bearing fruit when they should have taken years to do so. We just don't know for sure what date to put on anything. Which is why I try to focus on how God desires us to live.

Be blessed.
Ken

 

[joshua 1 9]

The Bible nowhere says a number for the age of the Universe,

People do not realize that they did not even have numbers at the time our Bible was written. They had roman numerals where they assigning a numeric value to the letters of the alphabet. All of the Hebrew letters have a numeric value. This is why people talk about Bible codes and hidden numbers in the Bible. Every word in the Hebrew Bible has a numeric value when you add up the value of the letters that make up that word.

 

[joshua 1 9]

We just don't know.

We do not know but we do the best we can with what we have to work with. As Paul says: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1cor13:12

Adam wasn't a baby he was created a man...

I personally believe that Adam really did live to be 930 years old. I believe the scientific evidence can verify this because all the skeletons we have before Adam the people died in the prime of life. There is no evidence of any ageing at all. They died from an act of violence. They were hunted down and shot with an arrow or their skull was crushed. Just as Cain said: "Behold, this day You have driven me from the face of the earth, and from Your face I will be hidden; I will be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” (Genesis 4:14)

The same Bible that tells us when Adam lived also tells us how long of a life he lived. There really is no getting around that.

 

[Halbhh]

We do not know but we do the best we can with what we have to work with. As Paul says: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1cor13:12

Now that is certainly clearly true!

I do not assume even that the apparent astronomical age of the Universe means as a certainty God made it 13.8 billion years ago even in His own eternal timelessness. He could well have done any number of alternative things, even accelerating time or any dozens of totally speculative notions. But, I also have no reason to believe even 9 or 13.8 billion years would be even the slightest hint of a problem for God....

This I do know with certainty: He made all that is, and that means He made the laws of nature, which we call 'physics' (physics is merely the attempt to discover the already existing laws of nature, the design of nature; or we use the word 'physics' to refer to those existing laws (only part of which we have discovered so far)). The natural order is His (not from some other source). Physics is His choice, His design. If we believe He made all that is, then physics is His.

So, when it appears the Universe has subsequently unfolded like a flower from a seed, seeming to simply follow the natural laws built into nature ('physics'), over that vast apparent time duration, that's perfectly compatible to the Bible, in every passage I know of, keeping in mind the Exodus passage on the Sabbath is about keeping the Sabbath, and references the Genesis chapter 1-2 creation in only a broad way pointing to the 7th day, the Sabbath, as the day of rest. I've no doubt at all though that God has also intervened in nature (as we see very often in scripture). So, we have both His natural design, which is His creation (if you believe), and also we know He intervenes, both.

 

[Ken Rank]

We do not know but we do the best we can with what we have to work with. As Paul says: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1cor13:12

But Paul's quote isn't dealing with how old the Earth was. If it were really that important, God would have plainly told us, right? There are prophecies that have been hidden, that we have not been seeing clearly. And as time goes on the tint in the glass we have been looking through continues to lighten. I really don't think knowing the exact age of the Earth will enhance your walk with God. 6000 years, 6 billion, what difference does it make? The fact that He IS... and He has a plan He desires you to follow, that is what really matters.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Airaux]

Joshua: I don't understand the idea of people not having numbers when the Bible was written. I may well have missed something, but is it not the case that the Bible is FULL of numbers? Eg - Adam was 130 when he became father to Cain; he was 930 when he died; there were 7 (however we interpret them) days in a week; Daniel talked of 69 weeks of years.
Maybe I've missed the point - would you like to elaborate?

 

[Airaux]

Guys - I'm off to have as meal. I'll respond to any intermediate input later.
Thanks for contributing.

 

[joshua 1 9]

He made the laws of nature, which we call 'physics'

I was a technical theater major in college. I worked for the Ballet Company as an Electrician on the lighting. So I studied the physics of light along with the additive and subtraction color theories. Then I went into construction for 20 years. WE use geometry, trigonometry, physics. They are all designed to get things done in the real world. They use to tell us in theater that we control reality when we control the lighting. We take people out of their world, into an alternate world, then at the end of the production we return them to the world they came from. Theater has come a long way now and they have a lot more lighting to work with now then we did back then.

We do the best we can with what we have to work with. My wife says we do our best and then we trust the rest to God. We can not figure it all out, so we have to trust God that He is in control and that somehow, someway He has it all figured out.

I know how to use a formula. My sons are both engineers. They know how to create formulas.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Adam was 130 when he became father to Cain

Yes they spelled that out: 30 in Hebrew is שְׁלֹשִׁ֤ים šə-lō-šîm 100 is וּמְאַת֙ ū-mə-’aṯ. You put those two words together (שְׁלֹשִׁ֤ים וּמְאַת֙) to come up with 130. Notice they are using letters and not numbers. In the Greek they used letters also. In Greek the years 2019 is MMXIX.

All the Hebrew letters have a number value.