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Age of Accountability

Sadalmelik

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Eternal hellfire was indeed a belief of the church at the time this age of accountability came into play.



You make it sound arbitrary, but in fact there is an approximate age at which humans are able to think certain thoughts. If they bear upon religious beliefs, responsibilities, etc. then an age of accountability could logically have significance. You may practice "believers baptism" and reject infant baptism. If so, is it not the case that it matters at which age one is baptised? I don't mean an exact age that is applied to every last person, irrespective of individual differences, but a general rule.

Most people would say that at thirteen almost any normal human is capable of accepting Jesus but at, say, age five he can only repeat a learned "Jesus loves me" response and is not yet able to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in a genuine sense. The age of accountability idea is similar to that.



the age of accountability, is to subjective, to even contemplate....there are a million variables that could go into it....im not saying that God doesnt have His own plan in regards to babies ,children, but it is not been shown to us, and we should not be making up doctrines in order to accomodate our guilt associated with some of our other beliefs...

it is not scripturally based, it is man made, i choose not to follow man,,,,that ususally doesnt turn out to good.
 
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Sadalmelik

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Eternal hellfire was indeed a belief of the church at the time this age of accountability came into play.



You make it sound arbitrary, but in fact there is an approximate age at which humans are able to think certain thoughts. If they bear upon religious beliefs, responsibilities, etc. then an age of accountability could logically have significance. You may practice "believers baptism" and reject infant baptism. If so, is it not the case that it matters at which age one is baptised? I don't mean an exact age that is applied to every last person, irrespective of individual differences, but a general rule.

Most people would say that at thirteen almost any normal human is capable of accepting Jesus but at, say, age five he can only repeat a learned "Jesus loves me" response and is not yet able to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior in a genuine sense. The age of accountability idea is similar to that.



actually that is not always the case, there are many 5 yr olds with faith much stronger than alot of adults, and quite fankly i would rather follow their example of being a christian, than many of the so called christian adults display ....so your arguement doesnt hold water.....the childs faith is true, sincere, and has no alterior motive, and without conceit, it is pure....many adults faith is not, regardless of their age, so no i dont feel age has much to do with it at all....and like i said, it is not biblical
 
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Albion

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the age of accountability, is to subjective, to even contemplate....there are a million variables that could go into it.

Perhaps, but an approximation is all that is needed. No doctrine hangs on the exact date and no one's destiny is decided by it because we have no way of knowing what God does with children who die before reaching the age of accountability.

im not saying that God doesnt have His own plan in regards to babies ,children, but it is not been shown to us,

Then we are agreed.

and we should not be making up doctrines

What doctrines?????
 
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Sadalmelik

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well you may call it whatever you wish, maybe doctrine wasnt the correct word, apologize....but again, it is a completely speculative idea, and ive already stated how i feel about it, and why it was started to begin with, you may disagree, i respect your decision to do so.
 
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Albion

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well you may call it whatever you wish, maybe doctrine wasnt the correct word, apologize....but again, it is a completely speculative idea, and ive already stated how i feel about it, and why it was started to begin with, you may disagree, i respect your decision to do so.

Ok, it isn't doctrinal and so say we both. Almost every church of any denomination has some age-related but non-doctrinal policies, just like almost every other association in life. So what?
 
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Sadalmelik

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Ok, it isn't doctrinal and so say we both. Almost every church of any denomination has some age-related but non-doctrinal policies, just like almost every other association in life. So what?



so what? im not the one who uses it to try to make myself feel better, by using it to relieve myself of the thought of babies and children be 'tortured forever in hell", for what other reason is the age of accountabilty usually discussed? and in what area is it usually used in.......to my knowledge it is used in the subject of hell quite extensively, do you disagree?
 
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Albion

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in case you forgot, that is the reason the op brought up the age of accountability for the discussion of heaven and hell......it isnt about baptism or being saved, etc....i thought we were talking about 1 subject here, based on the thread subject.

So...in your opinion, being baptised or being saved have nothing to do with going to heaven or hell? Interesting. But I apparently don't read the OP the same way you have.
 
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Sadalmelik

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and like ive stated and will again, the only reason the subject of the age of accountability is even brought up when it comes to the discussion of hell is for this reason only....for people who believe in the orthodox version of hell, to make themselves feel better by saying babies and children do not go there because they have not reached the age of accountability, thus relieving any negative feelings they would have about the thought of babies and children going to hell......what part of this do you not understand?

i think ive made my opinion pretty clear....it is made up stuff, which is completely subjective, and quite frankly irrelevant, cause there is no such thing....you yourself prove this by saying other denominations, other countries, etc all have different ideas of what it is.....so if its all over the place, then in the text of an arguement on the substance of it, its irrelevant, cause everyone can have a different view of it and on it.

it is not biblically/scripturally based, tmk, and therefore, like i said, i would leave it up to God to decide, and not try to imply my human, faulty logic onto something for God to decide...humans should not be doing that....its not our business.
 
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Sadalmelik

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So...in your opinion, being baptised or being saved have nothing to do with going to heaven or hell? Interesting. But I apparently don't read the OP the same way you have.





sorry i didnt say that , so be so kind as to not start putting words in my mouth and saying things i did not say....please do not be one of those.

what i said was when it comes to the age of accountability, it is to subjective to contemplate....if you wish to try to figure it out, and come up with some arbitrary number, that your comfortable with, then go for it....i dont really care.....alls i said was that i dont partake in that kind of stuff....period, and age is just that, an age, in and of itself means absolutely NOTHING...done God bless:wave:
 
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Albion

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so what? im not the one who uses it to try to make myself feel better

Does anyone?

by using it to relieve myself of the thought of babies and children be 'tortured forever in hell", for what other reason is the age of accountabilty usually discussed?

I've already explained that at least twice.

You're right about the connection, but the "relieve myself" theory is quite fanciful, if you ask me. .
 
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Albion

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what i said was when it comes to the age of accountability, it is to subjective to contemplate

I already said that it is only a general rule. No one can say for certain if one six-year old is more capable of understanding a certain theological or philosophical concept than another individual who is seven, etc. But churches can't schedule everything on on a one-by-one basis.

i dont really care.....alls i said was that i dont partake in that kind of stuff....period

And I was just answering the OP. It doesn't have any bearing on my own religious life.

Great. Then this is ended.
 
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Sadalmelik

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Does anyone?



I've already explained that at least twice.

You're right about the connection, but the "relieve myself" theory is quite fanciful, if you ask me. .




well if you are one who subscribes to the doctrine of eternal hellfire, i would not expect any different answer from you....how many do you think would actually admit that is the reason they are making up the concept of the age of accountability, no one would, cause then they would open themselves up to ridicule......are we being serious, here, cmon.....you are not seriously saying that if one actually thought this, as ive portrayed it, that they would admit to it? give me a break please, your starting to insult my intelligence....im seriously done with this.....peace and God bless.
 
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Albion

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Stop saying you're done with this and be done with it. Please. There is no point whatever in opposing me since--as I've said repeatedly--I don't have any personal involvement in the age of accountability thinking, although I know what the term refers to and am willing to explain it to whoever asks.
 
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New_Wineskin

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Do all babies go to heaven or "a better place"? Is every "religion" the same (excepting those who do not believe in heaven or a better place) that all babies go to heaven?

Could it be that some babies, because of their parents choices, go to a hell? Or if there is a heaven and hell, do all babies go to heaven?

I want to clarify that I do not want this to be a debate about "Is There a Heaven and/or Hell?" but rather, where do babies and small children go when they die before they reach accountability?

And what is the age of accountability?

The Lord will judge each person with justice and mercy . Age has nothin gto do with it .

The "age of accountability" is a doctrinal patch for the doctrines already in place at the time - such as needing water baptism for salvation and original sin being placed on all people . After such doctrines , people asked what you asked ... "What about the babies ?!" Well , they wouldn't backtrack on their mandeated doctrines . So , they invented this spiffy doodad of a doctrine . First they make the statement that all people at conception are guilty of a sin they didn't commit and then say that it isn't fair to treat them as being guilty if they die before such and such an age . It is a mess .
 
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Sadalmelik

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Stop saying you're done with this and be done with it. Please. There is no point whatever in opposing me since--as I've said repeatedly--I don't have any personal involvement in the age of accountability thinking, although I know what the term refers to and am willing to explain it to whoever asks.




sorry albion, i have a problem with that....after i say im done, i sometimes have this pressing thought in my head that i feel compelled to get out....it is not intentional......peace:groupray:
 
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Sadalmelik

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The Lord will judge each person with justice and mercy . Age has nothin gto do with it .

The "age of accountability" is a doctrinal patch for the doctrines already in place at the time - such as needing water baptism for salvation and original sin being placed on all people . After such doctrines , people asked what you asked ... "What about the babies ?!" Well , they wouldn't backtrack on their mandeated doctrines . So , they invented this spiffy doodad of a doctrine . First they make the statement that all people at conception are guilty of a sin they didn't commit and then say that it isn't fair to treat them as being guilty if they die before such and such an age . It is a mess .



thankyou, thats what i was trying to say in the ramblings i posted, your eloquent enough in your writings to do it in one post.....^_^

God bless...
 
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1Prophetess

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2 Samuel 12: 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

I see that the above passage would definitely suggest that babies go to heaven because David said he would go to the baby. Therefore, David, a man after God's own heart, obviously went to heaven with Abraham. So therefore, we can see that babies must go to heaven.


I Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Would this above verse suggest that children of unbelievers (or divorced people) go to hell? And, if so, would it suggest that children who are of believers (who are already children of God) are protected by their parent's marriage so they go to heaven?


Mark 10:14 (as observed by another poster) would suggest that children go to heaven as Jesus said, "such is the kingdom of God."

I particularly like Sturgeon's thinking on this (posted by Osage Bluestem). He was a great man of God. Though I have to say, like another poster said, a man's view is just that--man's view--and following a man, any man except the God man, is dangerous (though I would say following Sturgeon's view would be fairly safe.)



Because the Old Testament is Jewish in origin and a foreshadowing of the Christ (which New Testament believers believe that Jesus is the Christ as I do), then we have to at least give some credence to the Old Testament's view of the bar/bat mitzvah (13 for boys and 12 for girls) as being the age of accountability.

I am not Catholic. I learned of the term "age of accountability" from a Christian pastor. I did complete all the work to become Catholic, but never walked the last walk to be accepted into the Catholic community. I have always gone to Christian churches, but I know of the doctrime of the age of accountability (if such be such).

I see quite a bit of bickering on this thread. I'm disappointed because I didn't want to create bickering. Sadly, that happened.

I cannot believe man's viewpoint on this. I am looking for a Godly viewpoint. A few scriptures have been brought to mind, and I thank those posters.

Are there any other scriptures that I might have missed that would indicate there was, indeed, an age of accountability and what it might be?

Are there any other posters that believe that children do or don't go to heaven? Again, I am not interested in a view about heaven (though I have to say I liked the idea that we're all children of God, so we can't go to hell (though I wonder about those who have not been accepted into the fold of Jesus by accepting Jesus as the Christ and therefore confessing Jesus is Lord and believing the Father raised Jesus from the dead) so would a child be able to choose for or against Jesus and, therefore, for or against heaven?) I suppose some "children" might be able to choose for or against Jesus, but then do we become His children once we become believers and so then are incapable of losing salvation? Interesting thoughts those.

Thanks for the posts.
 
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Thought I'd bump this up, since it relates to much of what you said.

Like many things around here, the answer will depend.

IF the concept of original sin is that we are born dead spiritually having inherited the fall of Adam and it's consequence (before we were even born, we have sinned-see David's psalm), then we get one answer. This answer, however, is now mitigated by the death, burial, resurrection of Christ Jesus and whether the babies parents are believers (holy; if the lump is holy, so the offspring).

IF the concept of original sin is that there is some age of accountability (12 or 13) before which one is not a "sinner", then we get another answer.

My belief is #1. But, and this is very important, I believe Christ is our Passover Lamb AND I also believe God in the reason for the God-given second passover meaning (see Numbers) (there is provision for hearing/receiving the Good News, regardless of your or a babies' day of death).

Hope that helps. God is faithful.

I noticed folks don't really talk much about the provision of the second passover, but it must be there for a reason. Good news I believe.
 
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PaladinValer

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2 Samuel 12: 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

I see that the above passage would definitely suggest that babies go to heaven because David said he would go to the baby. Therefore, David, a man after God's own heart, obviously went to heaven with Abraham. So therefore, we can see that babies must go to heaven.

Except Jews don't have that theology; you are reading into something that, in context, doesn't exist. Jews do not believe going to heaven or hell; sheol only.

Furthermore, zipping right off to heaven or hell is not Christian because it denies the rightful place of the Second Advent, the Resurrection, and the Judgment in our Christian belief.

I Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Would this above verse suggest that children of unbelievers (or divorced people) go to hell? And, if so, would it suggest that children who are of believers (who are already children of God) are protected by their parent's marriage so they go to heaven?

The verse has to do with familial relationships in terms of whom the children belong to: the parent whose faith is Christianity. It doesn't have to do with salvation. That is why, for example, in the Vatican Church that the non-member spouse must agree that any children be raised in the member-spouse's faith before they may even get married in the Church. That's what the verse is about.

Mark 10:14 (as observed by another poster) would suggest that children go to heaven as Jesus said, "such is the kingdom of God."

I particularly like Sturgeon's thinking on this (posted by Osage Bluestem). He was a great man of God. Though I have to say, like another poster said, a man's view is just that--man's view--and following a man, any man except the God man, is dangerous (though I would say following Sturgeon's view would be fairly safe.)

Having faith like children doesn't mean all children go to heaven. It is having trust like children have, not that children go to heaven. Unfortunately, I sadly think some rotten ones will experience hell, baptized or not.

Because the Old Testament is Jewish in origin and a foreshadowing of the Christ (which New Testament believers believe that Jesus is the Christ as I do), then we have to at least give some credence to the Old Testament's view of the bar/bat mitzvah (13 for boys and 12 for girls) as being the age of accountability.

That's Judaism. Not Christianity.

The circumcision is gone. Holy Baptism, which circumcision foreshadowed, is what we go by. And infants may and ought to be baptized, for faith is not of the intellectual but of the spiritual.

I am not Catholic. I learned of the term "age of accountability" from a Christian pastor. I did complete all the work to become Catholic, but never walked the last walk to be accepted into the Catholic community. I have always gone to Christian churches, but I know of the doctrime of the age of accountability (if such be such).

I see quite a bit of bickering on this thread. I'm disappointed because I didn't want to create bickering. Sadly, that happened.

1. It isn't just a "Roman" Catholic belief. It is the belief of the vast majority of Christians, past and present.
2. All threads in GT become debates unless you specifically request otherwise.

I cannot believe man's viewpoint on this. I am looking for a Godly viewpoint. A few scriptures have been brought to mind, and I thank those posters.

All interpretation is reading comprehension. Asking for Holy Scriptures means nothing unless the context is given. I showed above how the passages you cited have nothing to do with what you suggested because the context was ignored or not known of. That's one of the biggest problems, particularly with Evangelical Protestantism, with interpretation: many rarely possess the schema or research the context properly, and often when they do, it is only for their own benefit. Not all of them of course, but way, way too many.

I personally consider this shoddy scholarship and an abuse of the Holy Revelation which the Holy Writ is.

Are there any other scriptures that I might have missed that would indicate there was, indeed, an age of accountability and what it might be?

There is no Scriptural evidence for an age of accountability. Otherwise, the Early Church would have commented on it surely, as they commented on so many issues when it came to reconciling with God. Whole heresies and schisms, notably the Montanists and Donatists, had to do in key part to such things, and it was never addressed.
 
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