Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[Bible Highlighter]

The context for "sheep" isn't v.27, but WAY back to v.1 and is fully clarified in v.7 and 9 -
7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

To "enter through Me" means to believe in Christ as Savior. That's the context for 10:28 and who receive eternal life.

So there are one of two choices of how you handle verse 27.

Either you:

(a) Ignore it.
(b) Change the plain written meaning of what it says in regards to the type of Sheep Jesus is talking about.

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[ZacharyB]

By simply reading the epistle
one will understand who the audience was.
Heb 3:1 - Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
Why would any believer address any unbeliever as a "holy brother"?

By simply reading my posts
one will understand that I was joking in post #279.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why would Paul desire for Israel to be saved? How did God's elect become unsaved? Were they not God's children? Weren't they eternally secure?

Excellent questions. Well said.

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[ZacharyB]

If you receive a car as a gift, that does not mean
you can run red lights, and drive drunk.

Bro, thou hast reduced the effectiveness of my analogy.
I said, if a father gives his gift of a car to his son,
and the son really misuses it, the father will take the car back.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bro, thou hast reduced the effectiveness of my analogy.
I said, if a father gives his gift of a car to his son,
and the son really misuses it, the father will take the car back.

I did not know you made a car analogy. It is very nice. I like it.

Anyways, God bless you brother.

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[Bible Highlighter]

So these verses somehow "trump" every verse I've shown that teaches eternal security??

Yeah, right. In fact, it is clear to me how much of Scripture isn't being understood at all.

Then explain to me these verses in how they are not appearing to say what they mean plainly. Please provide context and cross references.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

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[CodyFaith]

What do people who believe in Lordship Salvation believe about the following verses which talk about the sealing of the Holy Spirit?
Ephesians 4:30
Ephesians 1:13

It's quite apparent in the verses the permanent nature of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because of the context but also because of the word itself - sealed.

 

[ZacharyB]

I did not know you made a car analogy. It is very nice. I like it.

Hey, that's what you always say when you use somethin' of mine.
Except to do with pre-trib ... been raptured yet?
How's the olde memory these days?
Keep up the good work, bro'.

 

[ZacharyB]

What do people who believe in Lordship Salvation believe about the following verses which talk about the sealing of the Holy Spirit?
Ephesians 4:30
Ephesians 1:13

Don't know if this will work for you because it doesn't work for anyone else. lol

Please note that Ephesians was written
ONLY to the "faithful" saints (1:1)
who were sittin' in the church at Ephesus!
Paul was NOT writing to the unfaithful ones who were part of the church.
Or, perhaps you don't believe there are both types sittin' in churches!

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are misled in your belief about what believing in Jesus means. All that Scripture you brought up look sweet and sound great but proving you believe in Jesus Christ, that is another story altogether.

Please provide the meaning of the Greek word for 'believe'.

 

[CodyFaith]

Don't know if this will work for you because it doesn't work for anyone else. lol

Please note that Ephesians was written
ONLY to the "faithful" saints (1:1)
who were sittin' in the church at Ephesus!
Paul was NOT writing to the unfaithful ones who were part of the church.
Or, perhaps you don't believe there are both types sittin' in churches!

No, in the verse it doesn't say "after you believed then worked really hard and did good works" they were sealed, it says after they believed. Believed: singular. Sealed: sealed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So there are one of two choices of how you handle verse 27.

Either you:

(a) Ignore it.
(b) Change the plain written meaning of what it says in regards to the type of Sheep Jesus is talking about. ...

But we KNOW from other verses that there is NO SUCH criteria for receiving eternal life, and those Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Why do you reject that verse? All you've done is ignore the actual context that begins at v.1 which uses the metaphor of sheep for humans. And v.9 tells us precisely how one is saved: by entering through Him, an obvious metaphor for believing in Him. And all who have believed in Him HAVE eternal life and WILL NEVER PERISH. Period.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bro, thou hast reduced the effectiveness of my analogy.
I said, if a father gives his gift of a car to his son,
and the son really misuses it, the father will take the car back.

Please show ANY verse that tells us that God the Father will take back His gift of eternal life for any reason.

The problem with your view is that there are no such verses, as we all know.

Further, the Bible is clear about God's gifts: they are irrevocable. And eternal life is a gift of God. Therefore, it is irrevocable.

So the example of giving a car to a son has no relevance to Scripture and God giving the free gift of eternal life to those who believe.

There are no strings attached.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then explain to me these verses in how they are not appearing to say what they mean plainly. Please provide context and cross references.

Thank you.
And may God bless you....

I'll make this very clear. Answer the questions.

Does the Bible say that God's gifts are irrevocable? Yes. Rom 11:29
Does the Bible say that eternal life is a gift of God? Yes. Rom 6:23

Did Jesus say that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH? Yes. John 10:28
Did Jesus say that those who believe HAVE eternal life? Yes. John 5:24

Since you disagree with my views, please explain exactly HOW my "yes" answers are wrong in the questions above.

 

[ZacharyB]

Please provide the meaning of the Greek word for 'believe'.

Sure ... many years ago, a world-famous Spirit-filled evangelist
did a deep study on this and came to the conclusion that
"pisteous" (or however it is spelled) in the NT means:
believe, have faith, trust, obey.
He concluded that it couldn't mean anything else!

And I couldn't give a fig about what some Greek scholars
believe what "pisteous" means!
E.G. a Greek word can have up to 40 different meanings,
depending on the context being used.
Yes, I'd have to say that everything has to do with context.

 

[ZacharyB]

It's the same old story ...
OSASers refuse to deal with the many anti-OSAS passages!
By "deal", I mean show why they are NOT anti-OSAS passages.
Simple.

 

[Winken]

I am trying to understand what you are saying here. Are you trying to say that no Gentiles were saved before the cross or that the Gentiles were never in focus for God to save as a whole in the Old Covenant?

Also, the Jews were clearly cut off salvation wise. That is why Paul says earlier that his desire is for Israel to be saved (Romans 10:1). This is a parallel of how believing Gentiles could be cut off salvation wise, too.

In fact, Romans 11 also warns us believing Gentiles to be not minded but to fear.

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"
(Romans 11:20).

...

They were in focus, but no non-Jews were saved by Grace thru Faith prior to the Cross.

Those were not "believing Gentiles," they were the totality of the human race of non-Jews grafted in to make them available for God's Grace, heretofore granted but ultimately rejected by the Hebrew Nation. The Jews were removed, the Gentiles were plugged in as candidates for, not recipients of, God's Grace.

The Jewish Interlude is found between Romans 8:31 and Romans 12:1. It is Paul's lament for his Brethren, the Jews. His heart cries out to and for them. You can skip this interlude, this lament, by going straight to Romans 12:1 after Romans 8:31, without missing a beat. Read Romans 8. Stop at 31. Jump right back in at 12:1. Thereafter, 9-11.

Who profits from Romans 9 through 11? Who profits from the Book of Hebrews? Answer: Everyone. WHO is the focus? Paul cries out to the Jews, while letting Christians know of his lament. Who was the audience in Hebrews? Jews. Christians can use the Book of Hebrews in witnessing to Jews about the GIFT of Grace. To whom did Paul send the Book of Romans? Who was the audience in Rome?

Remember that the Hebrew Bible, the Abrahamic Covenant, addresses a people group. The Nation of Hebrews was chosen as a group, sustained as a group, until they wilfully rebelled, departing from our Creator's sustaining Grace. Remember that our Creator sent Moses. Remember that they turned to idols. Recall how many completed the trek through the desert ---- even after being Spiritually escorted across that turbulent sea.

Understand that our Creator came to us in the Person of Jesus for the purpose of dying for humankind while restoring to the Jews God's Grace. Remember that the leadership rejected Him. Recall that after 40 days our Lord appeared to Saul on that memorable Road to Damascus.* Understand that he, as the Apostle Paul, went first to the Jews, bringing the message of salvation by Grace through Faith, and that when they rejected him, he turned to the heathen Gentiles, the non-Jews.

Paul's ministry (Hebrews & Romans) revealed God's Amazing Grace to every creature on earth while leading the way to confessing Jesus as Savior one-by-one. How shall we witness, if we reject / neglect / ignore so great a transition?

*http://tinyurl.com/jw7k3bu

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus explained in 2 parables in Matthew 13 ...
-- BOTH the wheat and the tares exist in the kingdom of God(heaven),
basically indistinguishable.
-- Jesus plants the wheat (who are righteous),
while Satan plants the tares (who are evil)!

Yes. But realize also that all through Scripture the true and real believers immersed in Yeshua
were clearly recognized apart from the unbelievers. They lived different lives before and after they were saved. And they lived different lives from the unbelievers.

So today, if you have an assembly that appears no different than a bridge club or bowling team,
then you have an assembly that does not qualify as saved in the Bible.
IT is IF you have an assembly that IS set apart, born again, living as Jesus says to live, fellowshiping abiding every day with Jesus and with one another,
THERE you may have tares - the imitators/ fakes who are evil/
but when the whole group is no different than their ungodly neighbors,
then you have a coterie of tares. The whole group is tares.(or worse)

 

[Winken]

Excellent questions. Well said.

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Why would Paul desire for Israel to be saved? How did God's elect become unsaved? Were they not God's children? Weren't they eternally secure?

God's elect strayed, ultimately rejecting their Messiah. Thereafter (the Cross), salvation was one-by-one. 2 Chronicles 20:7.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hey, that's what you always say when you use somethin' of mine.

Well, I came up with the car analogy a long time ago long before I even met you on the other forum, my friend. I did not know of your car analogy until you told me just today.

Except to do with pre-trib ... been raptured yet?

You will know when it happens, for sure. But this is a topic I think it is best to agree to disagree on. We have already went down that road several times.

How's the olde memory these days?

Not sure what you mean.

Keep up the good work, bro'.

Thank you, and you, too; brother.


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