AG Barr's speech on religion & ethics

Bodhicitta

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essentialsaltes

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Thanks for providing the text.

It's pretty ironic that Barr quotes Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, which was specifically written to oppose using public funds for religious instruction. And then complains that Montana opposed using public funds for religious instruction.
 
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Bodhicitta

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An excerpt from Barr's speech:

Men are subject to powerful passions and appetites, and, if unrestrained, are capable of ruthlessly riding roughshod over their neighbors and the community at large.

No society can exist without some means for restraining individual rapacity.

But, if you rely on the coercive power of government to impose restraints, this will inevitably lead to a government that is too controlling, and you will end up with no liberty, just tyranny.

On the other hand, unless you have some effective restraint, you end up with something equally dangerous – licentiousness – the unbridled pursuit of personal appetites at the expense of the common good. This is just another form of tyranny – where the individual is enslaved by his appetites, and the possibility of any healthy community life crumbles.

Edmund Burke summed up this point in his typically colorful language:

“Men are qualified for civil liberty, in exact proportion to their disposition to put chains upon their appetites.... Society cannot exist unless a controlling power be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”

So the Founders decided to take a gamble. They called it a great experiment.
 
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I think you mean you agree with this opinion columnist:

Michael Sean Winters

I meant exactly what I wrote. NCR published as part of their Distinctly Catholic column.

Folks at ND who heard Barr in person have had the same reaction to the speech.
 
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Bodhicitta

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I meant exactly what I wrote. NCR published as part of their Distinctly Catholic column.

Folks at ND who heard Barr in person have had the same reaction to the speech.

Other folks, Catholic or not, have an opposite reaction. Such is life.
 
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Other folks, Catholic or not, have an opposite reaction. Such is life.

Do you think anybody needed to be told that? Lol. I agreed with the column, folks who were there in person summarized the speech similarly. You can feel however pleases yourself about it.
 
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I would have never thought of that myself - thanks for permission.

Since you feel the need to point out the obvious, that's what I did for you. You're welcome.
 
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essentialsaltes

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An excerpt from Barr's speech:

Men are subject to powerful passions and appetites, and, if unrestrained, are capable of ruthlessly riding roughshod over their neighbors and the community at large.

No society can exist without some means for restraining individual rapacity.

But, if you rely on the coercive power of government to impose restraints, this will inevitably lead to a government that is too controlling, and you will end up with no liberty, just tyranny.

Are laws against theft and murder 'tyranny'? The whole piece is largely empty rhetoric.
 
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durangodawood

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....But, if you rely on the coercive power of government to impose restraints, this will inevitably lead to a government that is too controlling, and you will end up with no liberty, just tyranny.....
Incredibly dumb statement. Even the most far out libertarian agrees with some coercive govt restraint on human action.
 
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FireDragon76

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An excerpt from Barr's speech:

Men are subject to powerful passions and appetites, and, if unrestrained, are capable of ruthlessly riding roughshod over their neighbors and the community at large.

No society can exist without some means for restraining individual rapacity.

But, if you rely on the coercive power of government to impose restraints, this will inevitably lead to a government that is too controlling, and you will end up with no liberty, just tyranny.

On the other hand, unless you have some effective restraint, you end up with something equally dangerous – licentiousness – the unbridled pursuit of personal appetites at the expense of the common good. This is just another form of tyranny – where the individual is enslaved by his appetites, and the possibility of any healthy community life crumbles.

Edmund Burke summed up this point in his typically colorful language:

“Men are qualified for civil liberty, in exact proportion to their disposition to put chains upon their appetites.... Society cannot exist unless a controlling power be placed somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”

So the Founders decided to take a gamble. They called it a great experiment.

I'm glad I'm no longer limited by these sort of assumptions about human nature and its associated baggage. If Christian Americans want to play the game of expecting the worst in their fellow citizens and living with corresponding low expectations, they have only themselves to blame for a dysfunctional society.

You identify as Buddhist. There is no reason to absolutize these particular cultural symbols. The AG is just paying homage to the cultural symbols of American conservativism.
 
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Bodhicitta

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I'm glad I'm no longer limited by these sort of assumptions about human nature and its associated baggage. If Christian Americans want to play the game of expecting the worst in their fellow citizens and living with corresponding low expectations, they have only themselves to blame for a dysfunctional society.

You identify as Buddhist. There is no reason to absolutize these particular cultural symbols. The AG is just paying homage to the cultural symbols of American conservativism.

The need for self-control of our vices is hardly a 'cultural symbol'. History provides plenty of evidence that humans lacking self control, in any civilization, will become more animalistic & immoral. That some avoid that fate is due to their following virtuous living.
Here is a Buddhist sutra on the subject. Note the advice is always to practice virtue to free oneself from vice:

"Buddhas know beings’ minds,
Their natures each different;
According to what they need to be freed,
Thus do the Buddhas teach.

To the stingy they praise giving,
To the immoral they praise ethics;
To the angry they praise tolerance,
To the lazy they praise effort.

To those with scattered minds they praise meditative concentration,
To the ignorant, they praise wisdom;
To the inhuman, they praise kindness and sympathy,
To the malicious, compassion.

To the troubled they praise joy,
To the devious they praise equanimity.
Thus practicing step-by-step,
One gradually fulfills all Buddha teachings.

It’s like first setting up a foundation
Then building the home:
Generosity and self-control, like this,
Are bases of beings’ practices
."
 
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FireDragon76

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Last time I checked Buddhists don't believe in controlling other peoples private lives, which is what Christians like AG Barr have a proven track record doing. That's not "virtue" in my book. That's insecure little people trying to get the rest of us to abide by their religious mythology.

Ahinsa and karuna, harmlessness and compassion, not obedience to perceived natural law, is the basis for Buddhist ethics.
 
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FireDragon76

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That may be an accurate description of the spirituality of Opus Dei, to which the attorney general belongs. I have long argued that the checklist spirituality peddled by St. Josemaría Escrivá had a semi-Pelagian quality to it. But the real tradition is that spiritual transformation happens when and because we Christians reach out to the poor and the marginalized, not by "focusing on our own personal morality and transformation." It is the encounter with Jesus in the poor that transforms and evangelizes, not the other way round.

Opus Dei? Good grief. Opus dei is an abusive mind-control cult within the Catholic church. Even alot of ordinary Catholcis don't like it.

Anyways, I agree with what was said. Being obsessed with personal morality isn't consistent with Jesus' actual ethics.
 
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Bodhicitta

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. Being obsessed with personal morality isn't consistent with Jesus' actual ethics.

Indifference to personal morality is exactly the fount of personal and societal suffering. As Buddha himself put it in my sig - To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to purify one’s mind—this is the teaching of all Buddhas.

Pythagoras Golden Verses, the Platonic & Neo-Platonic traditions, all varieties of Hinduism & Chinese religions agree with Jesus & Moses on the necessity of expressing our good thoughts, words and deeds, but ignoring bad thoughts, words and deeds.
 
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FireDragon76

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Indifference to personal morality is exactly the fount of personal and societal suffering. As Buddha himself put it in my sig - To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to purify one’s mind—this is the teaching of all Buddhas.

Yeah, well, I seriously doubt Buddha would approve of conservative Catholic social warriors who obsesses about trying to denormalize and sanction homosexuality, which is completely irrational and only part of the legacy of having a dogmatic, totalizing religious system that is the opposite of the spirit of free inquiry that Buddha taught.

On the contrary, most traditionally Buddhist countries are much more tolerant of gender and sexual variance.
 
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There's no reason why Barr's opinions on morality and ethics should be taken seriously for the simple fact that he supports Donald Trump. If he genuinely cared about morality and ethical behavior, then he wouldn't be supporting Trump in the first place. The truth is, he doesn't have the moral credibility to point a judgmental finger at anyone else for moral upheaval. It's virtue-signaling on his part, IMO.
 
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