After Death!?

[Phred]

Thoughtful response.

No more or less thoughtful than your regurgitation of dogma.

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[elman]

No more or less thoughtful than your regurgitation of dogma.

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​

Quite a bit less actually.

 

[elman]

Why, exactly? Without quoting a bible, demonstrate to me that human life has "meaning" (as opposed to bugs and rocks) apart from what humans give it.

I am asserting the possibility that if God is Love absolute, then as Creator it would be normal that the Creator would want beings to love and be loved. It would follow logically that to have a being that can love you, that being must have the ability to not love you otherwise the love of the being would be worthless to anyone. It is also logical that of the beings that are created with this ability the ones that the Loving God would chose to have around for eternity and who would be saved from the destiny of being mortal would be the ones who love and the others might well be left to their destiny as mortals-death-no life after physical life is over.

 

[Clem is Me]

I am asserting the possibility that if God is Love absolute, then as Creator it would be normal that the Creator would want beings to love and be loved. It would follow logically that to have a being that can love you, that being must have the ability to not love you otherwise the love of the being would be worthless to anyone. It is also logical that of the beings that are created with this ability the ones that the Loving God would chose to have around for eternity and who would be saved from the destiny of being mortal would be the ones who love and the others might well be left to their destiny as mortals-death-no life after physical life is over.

Assert no possibilities. Demonstrate that humans have more "meaning" than bugs or rocks. If you claim that God gives them more meaning you must demonstrate God first.

 

[Zlex]

From stardust to stardust.

Now this comment I like.

You and I borrow coalesced billions of year old stardust atoms, and use them for a very short time. In fact---we borrow -different- stardust atons over the coarse of our brief lifetime, yet we/self/consciousness persists beyond the residence time of any particular atom or serial numbered set of atoms. Now, the atoms have been around for billions of years, and our particular borrowing of them only persists for a short time--if you followed any particular set of atoms, not even for our entire lifetime; 'we' pass thrrough the ancient collection of atoms, and/or they through 'us', but we are not exactly/uniquely the same. Our persistance of 'self', whatever that is, does not depend on any particular collection of ancient atoms.

We ragard ourselves as 'finite,; yet that is not precise; we do not spring into being, then persist as a finite unchanging being, then snap out of existence. We are better thought of as 'processes.' We change. Physically and, as well, conciously. We come into being through a very specific organization and invitation and dance, our DNA unfurls, our processes unwind, our conciousness manifests itself. At some pioint, either gradually or abruptly, we slow down. In all likelihood, at some point in the future, some other process sails through some of what was once 'our' borrowed coalesced stardust.

We tend to cling to our share of the ride. Its our way. But, the ride seems like it goes on for much longer then our loop.

Especially if you have kids.

Or, if you had parents.

My father in law has been dead for almost 20 years. I knew him for 3 years. We talk about him alot. He still makes us laugh. How does he do that, if he does not exist?

Oh yes, somebody else is using his borrowed atoms now. But in terms of what makes his travelling process unique, he is still around, making us laugh.

Is that enough? What ingrates! That we get a ride at all is the most amazing thing. Is it a finite ride? Thats the best part of not knowing. THere is no downside.

 

[elman]

Assert no possibilities. Demonstrate that humans have more "meaning" than bugs or rocks. If you claim that God gives them more meaning you must demonstrate God first.

God is not visable and I do not have to demostate God first. My speculation that God is, is as valid and as logical as your speculation that God is not. You cannot domonstrate that either. Actually as I have said it seems to me to be more logical to bellieve in a Creator than in an accident, but certainly it is not more logical to believe we are accidents.

 

[elman]

Now this comment I like.

You and I borrow coalesced billions of year old stardust atoms, and use them for a very short time. In fact---we borrow -different- stardust atons over the coarse of our brief lifetime, yet we/self/consciousness persists beyond the residence time of any particular atom or serial numbered set of atoms. Now, the atoms have been around for billions of years, and our particular borrowing of them only persists for a short time--if you followed any particular set of atoms, not even for our entire lifetime; 'we' pass thrrough the ancient collection of atoms, and/or they through 'us', but we are not exactly/uniquely the same. Our persistance of 'self', whatever that is, does not depend on any particular collection of ancient atoms.

We ragard ourselves as 'finite,; yet that is not precise; we do not spring into being, then persist as a finite unchanging being, then snap out of existence. We are better thought of as 'processes.' We change. Physically and, as well, conciously. We come into being through a very specific organization and invitation and dance, our DNA unfurls, our processes unwind, our conciousness manifests itself. At some pioint, either gradually or abruptly, we slow down. In all likelihood, at some point in the future, some other process sails through some of what was once 'our' borrowed coalesced stardust.

We tend to cling to our share of the ride. Its our way. But, the ride seems like it goes on for much longer then our loop.

Especially if you have kids.

Or, if you had parents.

My father in law has been dead for almost 20 years. I knew him for 3 years. We talk about him alot. He still makes us laugh. How does he do that, if he does not exist?

Oh yes, somebody else is using his borrowed atoms now. But in terms of what makes his travelling process unique, he is still around, making us laugh.

Is that enough? What ingrates! That we get a ride at all is the most amazing thing. Is it a finite ride? Thats the best part of not knowing. THere is no downside.

He makes you laugh because you still have a memory of him. as the years go by the memory will get less and less. In a hundred years or less he will make no one laugh.

 

[Clem is Me]

God is not visable and I do not have to demostate God first. My speculation that God is, is as valid and as logical as your speculation that God is not. You cannot domonstrate that either. Actually as I have said it seems to me to be more logical to bellieve in a Creator than in an accident, but certainly it is not more logical to believe we are accidents.

You seem to like to impregnate your speculations with certain words that lead one by the nose. You speak of accidents and logical beliefs. I don't care about that. I see dead bodies, I see a world that works on it;s own without outside influence. I speculate nothing. I merely experience and respond. I add or subtract nothing. You do that. Demonstrate Gods and Meanings or fail.

 

[elman]

You seem to like to impregnate your speculations with certain words that lead one by the nose. You speak of accidents and logical beliefs. I don't care about that. I see dead bodies, I see a world that works on it;s own without outside influence. I speculate nothing. I merely experience and respond. I add or subtract nothing. You do that. Demonstrate Gods and Meanings or fail.

I have already demonstrated God and meanings. That you are not satisfied is no biggy. I don't live by your rules of success or failure. You may not see the existance of humans as accidental, but given all the things that had to come together in order for us to be here or to have brains or eyeballs, if that does not demonstrate God to you then you are seeing accidents or if you want to call them coincidents OK, but it is not the same thing as a rock rolling down the mountain.

 

[Clem is Me]

I have already demonstrated God and meanings. That you are not satisfied is no biggy. I don't live by your rules of success or failure. You may not see the existance of humans as accidental, but given all the things that had to come together in order for us to be here or to have brains or eyeballs, if that does not demonstrate God to you then you are seeing accidents or if you want to call them coincidents OK, but it is not the same thing as a rock rolling down the mountain.

Let me explain what you have "demonstrated": that you find natural complexity - itself a relative term used by limited beings with limited knowledge - hard to imagine. That's it. Not one other thing. You fail.

 

[elman]

Let me explain what you have "demonstrated": that you find natural complexity - itself a relative term used by limited beings with limited knowledge - hard to imagine. That's it. Not one other thing. You fail.

Let me explain who gets to decide if I fail. Someone who thinks, not you. Have you offered a reason for us existing as we are? If your only hope is no hope, if your only thought of the reason for us existing is no reason, then perhaps I am not the one who has failed. I never took the position that I could prove the existence of God to you or anyone else. Your taking the position that if I do not do that I have failed, is an assumption on your part, nothing more.

 

[Clem is Me]

Let me explain who gets to decide if I fail. Someone who thinks, not you. Have you offered a reason for us existing as we are? If your only hope is no hope, if your only thought of the reason for us existing is no reason, then perhaps I am not the one who has failed. I never took the position that I could prove the existence of God to you or anyone else. Your taking the position that if I do not do that I have failed, is an assumption on your part, nothing more.

Yeah, OK. Way to tell me. You BELIEVE that there is life after death. You demonstrate nothing of the kind. Deal with it.

 

[elman]

Yeah, OK. Way to tell me. You BELIEVE that there is life after death. You demonstrate nothing of the kind. Deal with it.

No response to what I said. Do you think you can find anywhere I promished that I would prove there is lilfe after death? I did not promise that and did not expect to do that. I have already dealt with it.

 

[Clem is Me]

There are many things that are real that you have never seen and will never see. That has no meaning in and of itself. That we are here for a reason and not just by accident seems more likely and more logical than to believe there is no reason or purpose behind our existence. We are the same as a bug or a rock and have the same destiny. That does not seem more logical and certainly there is no elegance about it.

Familiar?

 

[Zlex]

He makes you laugh because you still have a memory of him. as the years go by the memory will get less and less. In a hundred years or less he will make no one laugh.

Yes, quite possible.

Maybe I only get to experience one wave on this beach. Maybe the clean sand is only mine to scrawl on for just a few seconds. Maybe all that will be left of 'me' 3 waves from now will not even be memories, but merely newly rearranged stardust. But, that is all 'I' was for billions of years, and if that is all I will be for endless billions to come, then I am 'comforted' that, for whatever reason unknown to me, I go to stand on this beach for one wave, and form and scrawl my little bon mots, even for just one wave. The act of being at all is a comfort, and it is helpful in ways that aren't readily appreciated. I donlt know what I did for all those billions of years to deserve this chance to stand on the beach for one wave, but I am grateful for it. If I am grateful to nothing other then existence, then it is what it is; no more, no less. So, when I die, if I am faced with a God who says, "Sorry, no Heaven, that was the best I could do, but you can talk to me for 10 seconds before the big dirt nap," then I am prepared to simply say, "Thanks for the ride; it was the most amazing thing." If I am not, then at least I will have lived my one and only life feeling that way. So, there is no downside.