Advice Needed

[Luke17:37]

We have been attending a Church for eight years and while I never have felt 100% comfortable there, my children have. I wanted them to grow up in a Church environment, similar to what I had as a child, with lots of adults who strive to live a Biblical life. In the past two years, I have noticed that this Church seems okay with leaders who travel together and live together before marriage. For example, a minister going on vacation alone with his girlfriend (who held a youth leadership position) several times. Also, the assistant to the children's minister lives with her boyfriend. In both cases, this is public knowledge with stuff posted all over facebook and otherwise openly shared with the children and youth. The senior pastor seems okay with this (liking pictures on facebook and making positive comments). Am I being unreasonable to expect that leaders in the Church would set a good example for my teenage children? Our family doesn't approve of such behavior and we didn't expect our children to be exposed to that sort of thing by people who should be a living example. Are we being too judgmental? Is this now commonplace in every Church?

That's awful. Have you spoken with the pastor? I'd do that, maybe. If it were me, I'd probably leave the church and search for another. And I would explain to the kids why. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. If it doesn't bother your pastor what's going on, there's something wrong. Church discipline of these leaders would be appropriate.

I'm sure people in my church commit fornication, but if a church staff person is discovered doing it, they are fired immediately (this has happened). If a volunteer is discovered, they are also asked to step down from their volunteer leadership and to repent. (One of my friends told me this happened to her before I knew her.)

My parents left a church when I was 5 due to similar morality issues. In their case, a woman in their church abandoned her husband and children, divorced him, and this being common knowledge, then the pastor married her to someone else in their same church. I don't know if my parents met with the pastor or not, but they found a great church they liked much better for the duration of our time there in that state (about another year).

 

[Luke17:37]

I have similar issues with the leaders ignoring the stance on alcohol as well.

Drinking alcohol is not a sin; drunkeness is. Drinking alcohol may be a sin for some by personal conviction of the Holy Spirit (e.g., former alcholics), but it isn't a sin for everyone.

 

[Luke17:37]

So, is there something wrong with the concept of 'try before you buy'? Human sexuality is a messy business, and though people will always want to contain it and control it, I fear, in the end, they are doomed to failure.

Yes, according to the Bible, sex outside of marriage is wrong. God designed sex for the union between one man and one woman for life. (Genesis 2:24)

I know a lot of people don't like God's view, but that doesn't negate it. A biblical church will have a biblical standard.

Hebrews 13:4
4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fornication

 

[Luke17:37]

Would you consider leaving a Church over something like this? We are not sure what to do. Our children have friends here, but we feel that staying would send the message that we are okay with this behavior. However, leaving would feel like a punishment for something they had nothing to do with.

I would. The leadership is making it obvious that they give lip service to God's law but don't really care if people live by it. This is an authority issue. A person who rejects God's authority in one area will most likely reject it in another.

As for the kids, it's not their fault but there are a lot of decisions that have affected kids over the years that weren't their fault either (for example, when their families need to move because of their parents' job/financial situation). They are not being punished. You could make it easier by letting them get together with their closest friends sometimes. Nothing stays the same, and moving to a new church will provide growth opportunities for your kids to trust God and ask Him to provide new friendships. Also, they will know where Mom and Dad stand, where the Bible stands, and that a commitment to biblical authority can cost us personally but it's still God's best. If some of your kids are too young to explain it to, you can say the church wasn't upholding a standard God set and so it's important for us to honor God by finding a church that does.

 

[Strivax]

Humans act far beyond our instincts, and sometimes contrary to them. I was speaking statistically. The fact of the matter is that the norms regarding the role of mothers in the economy and in the home do differ greatly around the world, and in my country, the current norm is for a mother to continue working.

Our genes do not determine our behaviour, true. But that is not the argument. Merely that they do influence it in profound, subconscious ways, despite the fact we can consciously decide to override our genetic predispositions. Even in America, I am sure your will find that the wealthiest men get the most attractive wives, and the most attractive women get the wealthiest husbands. I merely offer an hypothesis to explain why this might be. If you don't like it, you are at liberty to suggest a better one.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Cearbhall]

Even in America, I am sure your will find that the wealthiest men get the most attractive wives, and the most attractive women get the wealthiest husbands. I merely offer an hypothesis to explain why this might be. If you don't like it, you are at liberty to suggest a better one.

I'm speaking statistically, not anecdotally, and I only responded to speak to your original statement about the statistics of working mothers. This is all I wanted to say:

 

[joshua 1 9]

We have been attending a Church for eight years and while I never have felt 100% comfortable there, my children have. I wanted them to grow up in a Church environment, similar to what I had as a child, with lots of adults who strive to live a Biblical life. In the past two years, I have noticed that this Church seems okay with leaders who travel together and live together before marriage. For example, a minister going on vacation alone with his girlfriend (who held a youth leadership position) several times. Also, the assistant to the children's minister lives with her boyfriend. In both cases, this is public knowledge with stuff posted all over facebook and otherwise openly shared with the children and youth. The senior pastor seems okay with this (liking pictures on facebook and making positive comments). Am I being unreasonable to expect that leaders in the Church would set a good example for my teenage children? Our family doesn't approve of such behavior and we didn't expect our children to be exposed to that sort of thing by people who should be a living example. Are we being too judgmental? Is this now commonplace in every Church?

"Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly." James 3:1

 

[SnowyMacie]

We have been attending a Church for eight years and while I never have felt 100% comfortable there, my children have. I wanted them to grow up in a Church environment, similar to what I had as a child, with lots of adults who strive to live a Biblical life. In the past two years, I have noticed that this Church seems okay with leaders who travel together and live together before marriage. For example, a minister going on vacation alone with his girlfriend (who held a youth leadership position) several times. Also, the assistant to the children's minister lives with her boyfriend. In both cases, this is public knowledge with stuff posted all over facebook and otherwise openly shared with the children and youth. The senior pastor seems okay with this (liking pictures on facebook and making positive comments). Am I being unreasonable to expect that leaders in the Church would set a good example for my teenage children? Our family doesn't approve of such behavior and we didn't expect our children to be exposed to that sort of thing by people who should be a living example. Are we being too judgmental? Is this now commonplace in every Church?

How do you know that the minister and his girlfriend are in fact, sharing a room, and if so, are automatically having sex? Furthermore, how do you they are actually alone the whole time and not meeting up with other people at their destination? I've gone on several trips with former girlfriends with other couples, and it wasn't just a weekend long orgy. I've slept in the same bed with former girlfriends and not had sex. It seems that you are assuming a lot here.

I'm not really sure what the term "assistant to the children's minister" means, that could mean anything from a secretary to an second minister to someone who just teaches on Sunday mornings.

 

[MariefromTexas]

How do you know that the minister and his girlfriend are in fact, sharing a room, and if so, are automatically having sex? Furthermore, how do you they are actually alone the whole time and not meeting up with other people at their destination? I've gone on several trips with former girlfriends with other couples, and it wasn't just a weekend long orgy. I've slept in the same bed with former girlfriends and not had sex. It seems that you are assuming a lot here.

I'm not really sure what the term "assistant to the children's minister" means, that could mean anything from a secretary to an second minister to someone who just teaches on Sunday mornings.

Yes, they were alone 100%. And pictures were posted on facebook of a bed with rose petals on it. What did or did not happen to me is irrelevant, because of the image the youth have been given. My issue isn't so much that it happened (we all sin), as it is that it was openly shared with the youth of the church. It gives them the impression that it is no big deal. I have noticed many people disappearing in the last year, so I am thinking others have left and this played a part in their decision to leave. I don't like contacting people and asking why they left, so I will never know for sure.

 

[MariefromTexas]

I would. The leadership is making it obvious that they give lip service to God's law but don't really care if people live by it. This is an authority issue. A person who rejects God's authority in one area will most likely reject it in another.

As for the kids, it's not their fault but there are a lot of decisions that have affected kids over the years that weren't their fault either (for example, when their families need to move because of their parents' job/financial situation). They are not being punished. You could make it easier by letting them get together with their closest friends sometimes. Nothing stays the same, and moving to a new church will provide growth opportunities for your kids to trust God and ask Him to provide new friendships. Also, they will know where Mom and Dad stand, where the Bible stands, and that a commitment to biblical authority can cost us personally but it's still God's best. If some of your kids are too young to explain it to, you can say the church wasn't upholding a standard God set and so it's important for us to honor God by finding a church that does.

Thank you for your support.

 

[Nithavela]

We have been attending a Church for eight years and while I never have felt 100% comfortable there, my children have. I wanted them to grow up in a Church environment, similar to what I had as a child, with lots of adults who strive to live a Biblical life. In the past two years, I have noticed that this Church seems okay with leaders who travel together and live together before marriage. For example, a minister going on vacation alone with his girlfriend (who held a youth leadership position) several times. Also, the assistant to the children's minister lives with her boyfriend. In both cases, this is public knowledge with stuff posted all over facebook and otherwise openly shared with the children and youth. The senior pastor seems okay with this (liking pictures on facebook and making positive comments). Am I being unreasonable to expect that leaders in the Church would set a good example for my teenage children? Our family doesn't approve of such behavior and we didn't expect our children to be exposed to that sort of thing by people who should be a living example. Are we being too judgmental? Is this now commonplace in every Church?

Welcome to christian forums and the 21. century.

 

[Luke17:37]

Thank you for your support.

You're welcome.

 

[Luke17:37]

Yes, they were alone 100%. And pictures were posted on facebook of a bed with rose petals on it. What did or did not happen to me is irrelevant, because of the image the youth have been given.

That's awful

 

[Luke17:37]

If it doesn't bother your pastor what's going on, there's something wrong. Church discipline of these leaders would be appropriate.

Marie, another possibility is that these instances of (the appearance of) sin being paraded have somehow slid under the radar of your pastor's knowledge. My pastor is not on Facebook so he wouldn't see things like this from our church ministers and volunteers unless somebody else drew it to his attention. He is a busy person and doesn't always know everything going on. You could make an appointment to meet with your pastor and perhaps bring some evidence with you. If he isn't angered and doesn't immediately remove them from leadership, you would know for sure where he stands. But I think it's more likely that he knows.

 

[Look Up]

How do you know that the minister and his girlfriend are in fact, sharing a room, and if so, are automatically having sex? Furthermore, how do you they are actually alone the whole time and not meeting up with other people at their destination? I've gone on several trips with former girlfriends with other couples, and it wasn't just a weekend long orgy. I've slept in the same bed with former girlfriends and not had sex. It seems that you are assuming a lot here.

I'm not really sure what the term "assistant to the children's minister" means, that could mean anything from a secretary to an second minister to someone who just teaches on Sunday mornings.

Certainly checking the facts is important and worth noting on this thread, though at least some relevant facts in the case appear to have been established publicly and openly in the church. The specific nature of the position of the "assistant to the children's minister," however ("from a secretary to an second minister to someone who just teaches on Sunday mornings") is irrelevant to the morality issue and to the reaction and responsibility of the church in addressing such "assistant ... liv[ing] with her boyfriend." With Passover approaching, recall Paul's warning that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump" (1 Cor. 5). And as I had written earlier on this thread in part (with underlining here added): "In NT terms, the message as you [MariefromTexas] represent it of the church leaders is that fleeing toward sexual temptation rather that away from it (1 Cor. 6:18, cf. 2 Tim. 2:22) is acceptable."

Moreover as MariefromTexas later writes regarding a leader's sleeping with his girlfriend, "pictures were posted on facebook of a bed with rose petals on it" and openly shared such pictures at least with the youth. Such evidence would seem established by more than one witness; in my experience rose petals on a bed is a culturally known signal of eroticism.