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Adversity

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by SpiritPsalmist, Sep 11, 2002.

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  1. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Some have come to the conclusion that Eccl 7:14 means that God brings prosperity and evil to His children.  This is my attempt at showing why I do not belive that this scripture is saying that nor do I belive that God does that.

    Eccl 7:14 (KJV) "In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider; God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him."

    (Amplified) "In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider that God has made the one side by side with the other, so that man may not find out anything that shall be after him.

    In my dictionary, the word "adversity" means: activly opposed; hostile - unfavorable, to turn toward with hostility. Hardship and misfortune.

    Strong's concordance renders it as "evil".

    So, are we to conclude that God brings "adversity" upon His own? Are we to think that God sets His Face against those who have been washed by the Blood of the Lamb? That He brings evil against them. The one's whom He calls righteous?

    Let's look at some scriptures regarding God's ways.

    Deut 32:4 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are judgment : a God of truth and without iniquity (another word for evil), just and right is he"

    PS 145:17 "The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works."

    PS 145:20 "The Lord preserveth all them that love him; but all the wicked will he destroy."

    Prov 10:29 "The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity."

    Now let's look at scriptures where the word "adversity" is used. 

    David said the Lord redeemed his soul out of all adversity 2 Samuel 4:9

    2 Chron 15:3-6   shows adversity coming as a result of leaving God out of their lives. 

    IS 30:9-20   shows adversity coming to those who are rebellious. 

    Through all these scriptures we see under what conditions that people are under adversity.  We see in the last one that His children eat the bread of it because of their rebellion.

    So, if your expereinceing "adversity", as defined above, you are either not a child of God or you're walking in rebellion.  And this is really a very simple problem to remedy.  Stop rebelling.  Do what God says and the adversity will stop.  It's His promise. 

    He said He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.  He said He changes not.  So guess who it is who has to change.  US!

    Now adversity is very different from trials and tribulations.  Jesus said "in this world you will have many trials and tribulations".  With the former, God's face is against you, the latter He's growing you up.

    OK, so God causes the two to dwell together side by side.  That very much agrees with the parable Jesus told in Matt 13:24-30 (KJV) "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field; But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in they field? from whence then hath it tares?  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye took up also the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn"  

    As you see, adversity is being allowed to stand beside prosperity.  When it's time to gather, the way the adversity is pulled out is by pulling everything that is standing straight (tares stand straight up and rigid) and refusing to bow. On the other hand, wheat bows.

    We must each look at our own self.  Are we standing rigidly against what God says and refusing to bend to His ways?  Or are we bowing in humility, ready for Him to change us and use us? 

     :bow:

     

    NOTE: to those first time readers: I have edited this post quite a bit from what I first posted.  So don't wonder at some of the first comments made by others.  I took their comments to heart and made changes I felt were needed.  Not because I changed my opinion but because I wanted to make it better understood.
     
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  2. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    ((So, if your expereinceing "true adversity", you are either not a child of God or you're walking in rebellion.  And this is really a very simple problem to remedy.  Stop rebelling.  Do what God says and the adversity will stop.  It's His promise. ))


    You sure have a long way to go about saying something. Why don't you just get to the point of what your wanting  to say and develop it from there?

    If it is a Bible truth that you have discovered, I do not need to walk with you every step of the way on your path to discovery. Just share the Bible truth with us that God has shown to you. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  3. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

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    Is persecution adversity? If so, why does the Bible say that we shall face persecution? Were Paul's imprisonments adversity? If so, does that mean he was out of the will of God? Did Christ face adversity? If so, was He also out of God's (His own) will? Was Job specifically out of God's will when God allowed Satan to punish him? Can God not use adversity to put us in the perfect position for His will to be accomplished, as He did with Joseph? Unless you don't consider his extended imprisonment to be adversity.
    Saying that adversity will cease the minute we seek God's perfect will is a very unBiblical 'idea'. If anything, that idea can cause people to fall away from the faith. If you teach people that their life will be empty of adversity when they seek God, what will they do when they eventually stumble upon a problem? That's right, they'll assume they must be doing something wrong and become disuaded.
    First off the Bible says there is nothing new under the sun. And I'm not trying to be completely argumentative here, but the scriptures you used here seem to be implying that you are trying to establish a doctrine, which is a relatively new one to my knowledge.
    Using the wheat and the tares is a beautifully clever example of how to use a scripture out of context. I actually heard that used in the same manner on a tbn program a while back. That scripture is obviously referring to believers and non-believers being mixed in Christ's church, and that Christ will sort them out in the end. There's no mention of how wheat bows, etc...That's something added by "teachers" because it is a cute little catch to the story.
    If you take the whole canon of Scripture into account, it's pretty obvious that the more diligently you seek God's will, the more resistance you will receive from the world. Blessed are those who are persecuted for Christ's sake. Their adversity doesn't mean that they are out of God's will.
    Seek God's will through Scripture and prayer, absolutely, but don't expect life to be a bed of roses.
    I think the moral of your statement is wonderful, that we should submit to God and let Him mold us, that we should seek Him above all things. But to say that we will see no adversity in the process is a bit misleading to say the least.

    Soli Deo gloria!
     
  4. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    ((Is persecution adversity?))

    If you had read his post you would see he defines the word: adversity as something that people bring on themselves when they are not right with God.

    Language got a bit mixed up at the tower of Babel. But in the upper room on the day of pentacost, everyone started to understand each other again.

    If we are walking with God, then He will cause all things to work out for the best and so we will have nothing to worry about.

    If we are not walking with God, then we have lots of reason to be worried. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  5. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

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    I never said we were obligated to worry about adversity, just that we must face it.
    I read his definition(s) of adversity. Here's what I found-

    Webster's Dictionary of the English launguage-
    Adversity-adverse fortune, an unfortunate event

    Young's analytical concordance to the Bible-
    Adversity- straitness, distress, evil

    If you look up adversary in most concordances, you would read to accuse or oppose, followed by the word Satan.
    In order to have adversity, we must have an adversary. Before regeneration, we are our own adversary, I conceed to that. We are in bodange to our own depraved nature. Upon regeneration in Christ, we are now dead to sin, but we still have an adversary, i.e. Satan. The Bible refers to him as our accuser, which is one definition for adversary. We see this clearly in the book of Job, where even though God had deemed Job as righteous, Satan continued to accuse him.
    Therefore, as long as there is an adversary, there must be adversity. If the topic of this thread would have been, we should not allow ourselves to be our own adversary, then I would agree whole heartedly...but by no means does adversity have to stop when we become intwined in God's will. God, in His own holy counsel, can rightly will us to be sick, go through adverse conditions, etc.
    For example, my grandmother was a very godly woman, she dilligently lived for God. Yet she became very sick before she died. Does her sickness, or adversity mean that she was out of the will of God? By no means, b/c in fact, her sickness drew me to the Lord. God used her sickness as a tool to effect me. Therefore, I say that even the most dilligent to seek God will still face adversity, even evil. But God will be with us through the entire process. We still must face the fire, as the 3 Hebrew youths, but God will be in the fire with us. He could have easilly kept them out of the fire for obeying His will, but instead He showed up with them as a display of His wonderful glory. Without tests, there could be no testimonies.

    Soli Deo gloria!
     
  6. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Going with the definitions that I gave I would say that persecution is not the same as adversity.

    Persecution is trouble brought on by one's beliefs. And Jesus said that in this world we would suffer persecution. So in my thinking they are not one and the same.

    In ref to the Eccl scripture I was trying to make the point that God does not bring adversity (evil) upon His children. We, ourselves walk into evil when we walk in disobedience. Or, we allow evil to come on us because we belive our enemy instead of God.

    I'm sorry if I did not put it quite right. I'm rather new at this (putting my thoughts in written form) and I just wanted to make sure the point was received. I"m not trying to extablish a new doctrine.  God knows, we already have enough of those.  :D
     
  7. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Thanks for opening the thread on this topic Quaffer. Adversity is a topic which we have touched upon off and on in many threads and in many topics here at CF.
    I think it is a mistake for someone to take Ecclesiastes as the starting point for the development of foundational doctrine. Scholars and students have long pointed out that Ecclesiastes, written by Solomon, could be considered human wisdom pressed to it's absolute and final conclusion. If a man believed in God and attempted to use his human logic to explain the ways of the world, this book is what he would come up with. This book is definitely not written from a faith or a "good god" perspective. This book does not pass the Heb 11:6 "please God" test. It presents a depressing and hopeless view of life that is commonly seen among backsliders. It certainly is not a Christian perspective of God, life, and faith.
    It is also thought by some that this book was actually written by Solomon while in his backslidden condition, and that this book was included in the scriptures as an example of the failure of human wisdom and logic. Immediately following this post I will offer one man's study attempting to prove this concept. I will submit these ideas to you before I respond to the points Quaffer has stated.
     
  8. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    Ecclesiastes The Words of the Backslidden Preacher
    These are "the words of the preacher," not the words of God; and this is how it should be understood, except that we must recognize that Solomon was a backslidden preacher when this book was written. These words are the reasonings, searchings, and findings of a natural man "under the sun," a natural man seeking to satisfy his soul.
    Ten Evidences of Backsliding:
    1.His attitude toward creation and human life, everything on earth being considered vain, empty, and extremely vexing.
    (1)The term "vanity of vanities" is used 3 times (Eccles. 1:2; Eccles. 12:8).
    (2)"Vanity and vexation of spirit" is used 7 times (Eccles. 1:14; Eccles. 2:11,17,26; Eccles. 4:4,16; Eccles. 6:9).
    (3)"All is vanity" is used 5 times (Eccles. 1:2,14; Eccles. 2:17; Eccles. 3:19; Eccles. 12:8).
    (4)"Divers vanities" is used once (Eccles. 5:7).
    (5)"This is also vanity" is used 13 times (Eccles. 2:1,15,19,21,23; Eccles. 4:4,8; Eccles. 5:10; Eccles. 6:2,9; Eccles. 7:6; Eccles. 8:10,14).
    (6)Vanity is used 8 times in various ways (Eccles. 4:7; Eccles. 6:4,11; Eccles. 7:15; Eccles. 8:14; Eccles. 9:9; Eccles. 11:8,10). Life itself was considered vanity.
    (7)The words vanity and vanities are used 37 times throughout this short book, compared to 62 times in all the other books of the Bible.
    2.His reasonings "under the sun" prove he was not speaking as an inspired preacher in harmony with God. The expression "under the sun" is used 29 times. No inspired preacher or prophet of God in any other book so reasons about things under the sun as Solomon. This must have been the period of his life after his wives had turned his heart away from Jehovah (1 Kings 11:1-10). He had 1,000 women in all—700 wives and 300 concubines. His reference to them in Eccles. 7:26-28 seems to indicate this as the time of his backsliding. He declared he had considered one by one and had not found a true woman—one who was pure and free from seductive traits, whereas, he had found one man among all his trusted servants. Compare this natural reasoning under the sun with the true teachings of a preacher who was not backslidden in heart (Matthew 6:25-34; Col. 3:1-4).
    3.His general dissatisfaction with life (Eccles. 1:8; Eccles. 4:8) indicates a backslidden heart. A true man of God will be satisfied and contented (Psalm 22:26; Psalm 36:8; Phil. 4:11; Hebrews 13:5).
    4.What he gave his heart over to during this time proves it was not right:
    (1)He gave his heart to seek and search things done under the sun instead of devoting himself to the conversion of men to things above the sun; i.e., heavenly things (Eccles. 1:13)
    (2)He gave his heart over to know madness and folly, something no true sincere preacher would do (Eccles. 1:17)
    (3)He gave his heart over to wine, folly, mirth and pleasure without restraint (Eccles. 2:1-3)
    (4)He fulfilled all his lusts and passions, not withholding his heart from any kind of joy and pleasure (Eccles. 2:10)
    (5)He deliberately caused his heart to despair (Eccles. 2:20)
    (6)He gave his heart to know the wickedness of folly, and the foolishness of madness (Eccles. 7:25)
    5.His self-exaltation proves that his heart was not right (Eccles. 1:16; Eccles. 2:4-9). Solomon constantly referred to himself, using "I" 87 times, "me" 17 times, "my" 22 times, "myself" 4 times, and "mine" 9 times in 222 verses, as compared to the writing of John, the beloved preacher of the N.T., who used none of these personal pronouns in his entire Gospel of 879 verses.
    6.Being surprised that his wisdom still remained in him while his heart was in this condition indicates that he was not right (Eccles. 2:9).
    7.His hatred of life shows that he had no peace with God (Eccles. 2:17). He actually praised the dead as being better off than the living (Eccles. 4:2-3).
    8.His selfishness—worrying about leaving his works to others after his death proves he was not right in heart and had no love for others (Eccles. 2:18-19).
    9.He advocated four wrong principles concerning sin and principles of living, which no preacher in harmony with God will do:
    (1)Enjoy mirth, pleasure and wine-drinking and drunkenness (Eccles. 2:1-3; Eccles. 9:7)
    (2)Nothing better in life than to eat, drink, be merry (Eccles. 2:24-25; Eccles. 8:15)
    (3)Nothing better for a man than to rejoice in his own works (Eccles. 3:22)
    (4)Money answers all things (Eccles. 10:19)
    10.He taught several false doctrines which he no doubt would not have taught had he been normal in his spiritual life:
    (1)All things in life are vanity and vexation of spirit.
    (2)No new thing under the sun (Eccles. 1:9-10; Eccles. 3:15). Because Solomon said this, some think that nothing whatsoever can be invented which did not exist in the past; but Daniel predicted an increase of knowledge and this would indicate many new things (Daniel 12:4).
    (3)No former things remembered (Eccles. 1:11). All things, good and bad, will be remembered and everyone will be judged for them (2 Cor. 5:9-10; Rev. 20:11-15).
    (4)Crooked things cannot be made straight (Eccles. 1:15; Eccles. 7:13). Not only is it possible to make things straight, but this has been done in all ages, both regarding material things and crooked ways of life. See Isaiah 40:4; Isaiah 42:16; Isaiah 45:2; Luke 3:5.
    (5)Increasing knowledge increases sorrow (Eccles. 1:18). This is true when knowledge is used in a wrong way as Solomon used his at various times in this book. When he used it in the right way it increased joy and brought rewards; even Solomon himself recognized this (Proverbs 1:5; Proverbs 9:9). The N.T. encourages an increase in knowledge (2 Peter 1:1-10; 2 Peter 3:18).
    (6)No remembrance of the wise more than of the fool, and the past will be forgotten (Eccles. 1:11; Eccles. 2:16). See statements to the contrary (Psalm 112:6; Malachi 3:16; 2 Cor. 5:9-10; Rev. 20:11-15).
    (7)The day of death is better than the day of birth (Eccles. 7:1). This is not true of the wicked (Matthew 26:24; Luke 16:19-31; Isaiah 14:9).
    (8)No just man upon the earth—one that does good and does not sin (Eccles. 7:20). This is contradicted by Romans 5:1-11; Romans 6:14-23; Romans 8:1-13; 2 Cor. 5:17-21;10:4-5; Titus 2:11-13; 1 Peter 2:21-22; 1 John 1:7-9; 1 John 2:29; 1 John 3:5-10; 1 John 4:1-4,18.
     
  9. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Thanks for sharing John, Solafide and Hobie,

     

    I've been reading through 1 Kings and this morning it was chapter 11 (isn't that interesting?  chapter 11 as in bankrupt) that spells out the downfall of Soloman.  

    Nothing is left to private interpretation here.  :)

     
     
  10. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

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    That is the reason why God has to rapture the Bride out of here, before He can judge the world. He promises He will never pour out His wrath on His children. It sort of makes you wonder if things are the way they are now, during the age of grace, how much worse will they be when the spirit of grace is removed and the church dispensation has come to an end. What we see in the world today is sort of a friendly reminder that we do not have much time left and that now is the time and today is the day to get right with God. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  11. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

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    Quaffer, thanks alot for clearing that up. I agree that God does not bring evil upon His people. God isn't capable of doing evil. He is capable of bringing justice, but not evil.
    As far as Hobart there is concerned, I have no idea why that explanation of ecclesiastes was necessary, no one was starting a doctrine on the premise of that book. And as far as your commentary of it's inspiration or "un"inspiration for that matter, that throws up red flags all over the place. To say that a book accepted in the canon of Scripture is not inspired by God, and is merely written from a man's perspective puts the integrity of the entire canon in jeopardy, I'd watch that. Not that any major doctrines get there starting point from that book, but it has been excepted as inspired scripture by the orthodox protestant church.
    Again, thanks Quaffer, I really appreciated you clearing up your ideas. God bless.

    Soli Deo gloria!
     
  12. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Soli,

    I am in no way saying the book should not be in the Bible. I, for one appreciated what Hobie shared regarding Eccl. There are several on these forums who are basing doctrine on what is written in Eccl. Hense, the reason for my starting this thread in the first place.

    2 Tim 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof , for correction , for instruction in righteousness."

    God inspired the recorders of Solomon's ways and words (1 Kings, Prov., Eccl) to write and add these things to scripture to show how a great man of God could soar on wings as eagles when he walked in obedience. Or, grovel in the dust when he walked in disobedience. Thus, we get a great deal of reproof, correction, and instruction on what righteousness is and is not.

    Just because it's recorded that that's what a man said, if what the man said is contradictory of what God says, the man is wrong and God is right. Scripture says "let God be true and every man a lier." Having it recorded does not mean that God agrees with it.
     
  13. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Soli,

    I'm going to attempt to answer these comments as well.

    No! Persecution is to oppress because of one's faith.


    No. It was persecution. I believe he was also reaping what he had sowed. Persecution, inprisonment, and eventually death.

    No. He went to the cross willingly. God the Father turned His back but did not become Christ's enemy. Christ faced temptation in every area known to man. But temptation is not adversity.

    No and yes. Will follow throughly on another answer.


    God does use adversity but the adversity is not from His hand.

    The moment we repent and begin walking in the knowledge of God adversity will cease. However, it may take awhile untill we get through all the reaping of what we have sown.

    Adversity and problems are not the same. Problems are situations that present difficulty or uncertainty. A source of trouble or anoyance. The Bible says we can do all things through Christ Who strengthens us. We are overcomers.

    Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun. According to God, regarding a repentant heart, "old things are passed away, all things are new."

    I don't believe I took it out of it's context at all. I will try and do a little more research on wheat and tares. However, I don't feel that it would have been necessary for Jesus to have spelled it out in detail for them to understand the point.


    I agree. Persecution and resistence is not adversity.

    Again, adversity is not the same as persecution.


    Life under the sun is not a bed of roses. But life with Jesus is to soar as on wings of eagles. (Is 40:31)

    When we walk in disobedience, we will see adversity. No disagreement there.

    (to be cont.) :angel:
     
  14. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Job . . . .
    For the record, I will again say that just because it is recorded that someone in the Bible said something, if what they said disagrees with God then what they said was not the truth.

    I'm in no way saying that this account of Job should not be in the Bible.  It's here for our correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. 

    Job 1:5 We see Job making sacrifices for his children's sins but we don't see that he ever corrected them.  We are told to train up a child in the way that he should go.  Job seemingly failed to do that with his children.

    Look at Job 1:21. I'm reading the Amplied Bible, Job said, "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away". Now look at Job 2:6, God says, "Behold, he is in your (satan) hand; only spare his life". Job was wrong in his assessment of the situation. God had given but it was not God who was taking it away.

    In Hosea 4:6 God says, "My people parish for lack of knowledge.

    True God gave satan permission to attack, but it was actually Jobs lack of knowledge that brought it on, Job 42:3 Job said, "I have rashly uttered what I did not understand".

    We see that God stirred up adversity against Job by boasting to satan about Jobs right living (not a right heart). 

    Prov 29:25 says, The fear of man bringeth a snare:but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe".

    In Job 3:25,26 Job says, "For the thing which I greatly fear comes upon me, and that of which I am afraid befalls me. I was not or am not at ease, or had I or have I rest, nor was I or am I quiet, yet trouble came and still comes upon me".

    Look also at Job 13:3 (Amp) Job said, Surely I wish to speak to the Almighty, and I desire to argue and reason my case with God [that He may explain the conflict between what I believe of Him and what I see of Him]." Job did not turn against God but he did turn on Him. Jobs attitude was one of self pity, self-righteousness, complaining, defiance and lack of trust.

    We see God's correction using Elihu beginning in chapter 32. The last chapter, after Gods correction of Job, 42:1-6 "Then Job said to the Lord, I know that You can do all things, and that no thought or purpose of Yours can be restrained or thwarted. [You said to me] Who is this that darkens and obscures counsel [by words] without knowledge? Therefore, [I now see] I have [rashly] uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. [I had virtually said to You what You have said to me:] Hear, I beseech You, and I will speak; I will demand of You, and You declare to me. I had heard of You [only] by the hearing of the ear, but now my [spiritual] eye sees You. Therefore I loathe [my words] and abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.

    A perfect example of lack of knowledge, leading to fear, and resulting in Job letting the words of his mouth run amuck and bringing death (Prov 18:21)
     
  15. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    I agree that adversity could come as a result of not abiding in Christ, but the trying of our faith means much more than we may know or have a complete understanding of, and to believe all suffering and trial is a result of sin is not true. The disciples and Christians were poor examples of prosperity by todays faith confession teacher's standards, in my opinion. Nevertheless, God will cause all things to work together for good to those that are the called according to His purpose.

    Even though God created satan, satan performs God's work while thinking he is a strong opponent and roars like a hungry lion seeking whom he may devour. Sometimes, suffering forces us to loosen our grip on this life that we hang on to so tightly and consider the words, whoever loses his life shall gain it. Remember the one who was turned over to satan for chastisement? Paul also had a messenger of satan as a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble that God would not remove.

    John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

     Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

    James 1:2 ¶ My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

    Rev. 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    1 Timothy 1:20  Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

     
     
  16. josiahdefender

    josiahdefender New Member

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    QUESTIONS?

    Does God require us to stay in adversity?

    Does God send us into adversity?

    Does God require adversity/persecution/tribulation to perfect his people?

    Josiah
     
  17. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    I guess I could add these to the ones I posted earlier.

    Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    Luke 10:3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves

    Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
    13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

    Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

    2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

    Hebrews 11:25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

    Isaiah 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

    Hebrews 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
     
  18. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    ANSWERS!  :D

    1. NO. God does not even require that we expereince adversity.

    2. No.  He stirrs adversity as He did with Solomon in 1 Kings and I believe He did that with Job too, by bragging on Job to satan.  There were things in each man's life that needed to be be dealt with.  So, God stirred up their enemys to come against them.

    3. These words do not have the same meanings.  Adversity is having evil come against you in hostility.  Persecution is trouble brought on by one's beliefs. Tribulation is distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution. 

    To work perfection in His people Gods only requirement is obedience.  It is our lack of obedience or slowness of obedience that could cause adversity to have to be stirred up.  

    As a result of obedience to Him, there is pretty much a guarentee that we will experince persecution.  I do not belive God stirrs that up though.  Jesus said that because we follow Him we will experience persecution.  Biblical persecution is due to our faith in Him though, not any other reason. 

    Tribulation works pretty closely with persecution.  Although, we do not need to become distressed.  The Joy of the Lord is our strength.
     
  19. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

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    I appreciate all you have said and agree to a large part, but the soldier in battle needs armour for spiritual warfare. This implies adversity to me. I don't use the Living Bible much, but do like the way it puts Gal.5:17 which I will share:
    Galatians 5:17 (LIV) For we naturally love to do evil things that the Holy Spirit tells us not to do; and the good things we want to do when the Holy Spirit has His way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures.

    Now for sickness and disease, you may be closer to right, but failure in spiritual battle leads to failure and sin in the flesh, which then could lead to sickness and disease. I hate to say it, but sickness and disease in a Christian may be symptomatic of hanging on to sin of some form - unforgiveness, perhaps, which made some sick and even die for taking the Lord's communion unworthily. Notice I say "maybe", and not always.
     
  20. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Ah, now spiritual warfare is something different also.  

    When I speak about adversity, I'm looking more at what happend with Job or with Solomon.  When God stirred up adversity against them.  All of their adversity was in the physical.

    Spiritual warfare takes place in the heavenlies.  We are not at war with flesh and blood.  Dependant upon how we fight or don't fight will determine if this battle overflows into our physical. 

    I don't know that me crucifying my flesh is necessarily a spiritual warfare issue as much as it is dying to self.  Keeping the armour on and using the sword to fight is what we are told to do. 

    We are not at the mercy of this adversary, the devil.  Life and death are in the power of the tongue.  We have the authority to speak life or death.  Life to whatever or death to whatever. 

    According to the Word of God (our sword) the enemy is under my feet.  I am sitting in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus, and He's given me authority to tread on scorpians (in the spiritual rhelm. . . . . .devils).  The Joy of the Lord is my strength.

    We must learn to loose the word of God from our mouths so that our adversary no longer has a toe hold on us.

    More often than not, we loose words of the world and then can't figure out why were lamenting so much and sick so much, and poor so much.  Woe is me all the time.

    Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing.  Jesus said only what He heard the Father say.  We need to follow suit.  Yes! :)

    Sorry, I don't have any more time left.  I'll write more later.  

    Bye 
     
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