Adventists-Bible does not prohibit all alcohol.

tall73 · Apr 23, 2021

BobRyan said:
The point you keep missing is that yayin and shekar are both translated as the fresh grape juice and as alcoholic beverage depending on context. By contrast I think mishrah is innately fresh.

You appear to be trying to turn this so that yayin and shekar are innately alcohol with no exceptions and that is not the case in the Bible.

The point you are missing is he lists all the things that cannot be consumed and includes all three in a list. So the fresh juice is in addition to the other things mentioned, which included wine and strong drink.

That would make no sense if wine and strong drink were also fresh juice.

Also, there is no way you are turning aged wine in Isaiah into grape juice.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Dale said:
Imge, do you always start off by saying that the whole thread is out of line? You've done this before and it gets pretty tiresome. I get the point. You can't answer the argument, so you attack the poster.

I’ve answered every question you have asked through scripture. I typically don’t like to go around and around with the same poster if scripture has been shared and they are closed to it. Is there anything I have not answered, if so please let me know as I would be happy to address anything.

Butterball1 · Apr 24, 2021

tall73 said:
Nor does yours say it begins with the first drink. It is a prolonged form of the word. But the word is not the word to drink but to intoxicate.

Strongs:
μεθύσκω
methuskō
meth-oos'-ko
A prolonged (transitive) form of G3184; to intoxicate: - be drunk (-en).
Total KJV occurrences: 3

The usual term for drink is πίνω.

If they were drinking wine in small amounts, with meals, that is not an issue, and they did so in the Scriptures.

Now when people drink high alcohol content drinks, or drink with no food, or quickly, or especially multiple of them, then that is a different equation.

And I don't see anything you posted that dealt with any of the number of verses that indicated they were drinking, God allowed them to drink strong drink, etc.

Drunkenness is the result of drinking too much. That is why they were cautioned not to go to the point of drunkenness.

I would vote no on that measure. People could still obtain alcohol in other ways.

But that does not allow me to say that the Bible condemns alcohol, because it does not.

Again, the inceptive verb shows drunkeness is a process. A process has a beginning point, inception point and with the process of drunkeness it is the first drink.

There is not any verses in the NT of Jesus or Apostles saying social drinking is acceptable. Again, in Eph 5:18 Paul is condemning the PROCESS of drunkeness which includes the frist drink one takes as much as the last drink and every drink inbetween. Drunkenness is a matter of degree not a destination one eventually reaches after having some number of drinks.

1 Peter 4:3 Peter is referring back to the former life the old man of sin lived who indulged in "lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries". Peter is condeming drinking in 3 varying degrees/amounts. Excess of wine means just that where a person drinks so much maybe in passed out. Revellings refers to a wild party where one drinks and loses his inhibition acting foolishly. At the time of King James a banquet was something they would have after eating a meal sitting/standing around conversing while sipping on drinks. There is no set amount, it can refer to small amounts up to large amounts. The verb form of banquet (poto) is in Matthew 10:42 (to drink) and is associated with an amount small as a cup:
I Peter 4:3 and 'Social Drinking'

Christians are commanded to be sober (as in 1 Peter 5:8). The Greek word for sober is nepho with "ne" meaning not and "pho" meaning drink so nepho literally means "not drink".
"The Greek word nepho literally means “drink no wine” (The Complete Biblical Library). Vines Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words says it means “to be free from the influence of intoxicants.” The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says it is the opposite of intoxication. Liddell and Scott’s Lexicon says it means “to be sober, to live soberly, especially to drink no wine.” Stephanus’s Thesaurus says “he who abstains from wine.” Bretschneider defines it as “I am sober, I abstain from wine.” The Greek Dictionary of Byzantius says nepho means “one who does not drink wine.” The Greek-French Lexicon says “abstinence from wine, sobriety.” Robinson’s New Testament Lexicon defines it as “to be sober, temperate, abstinent, especially in respect to wine.” Younge’s English and Greek Lexicon says it means “without wine.” Even Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries admit nepho means “to abstain from wine, keep sober."
Drinking in the New Testament
Drink No Wine | Battle Creek Church of Christ

You said you "would vote no on that measure" yet you have no problem with social drinking. Why then vote no?

But back to my question for those that approved. Did their vote send the signal that their "right" to drink is more important than the death of 1000's of innocent men, women & children slaughtered/murdered at the hands of a drunk driver on the highways, the domestic violence and abuse at the hands of those who are drink/drunk, the deaths caused by alcohol are all acceptable consequences? Drinking is more important to them than the consequences? I am to believe God is supposedly satisfied with these consequences?

Leaf473 · Apr 24, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Possibly, but I think the context leans me towards the way I interpret it. The person speaking it and the person being addressed, are royalty, so.. they're going to have a less flattering view of those beneath them.

What do you believe ought to have been done for an Israelite soldier back then who was mortally wounded but may take several days to die. Should they be given wine? Or just be allowed to suffer.

ChetSinger · Apr 24, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Again, the inceptive verb shows drunkeness is a process. A process has a beginning point, inception point and with the process of drunkeness it is the first drink.

There is not any verses in the NT of Jesus or Apostles saying social drinking is acceptable. Again, in Eph 5:18 Paul is condemning the PROCESS of drunkeness which includes the frist drink one takes as much as the last drink and every drink inbetween. Drunkenness is a matter of degree not a destination one eventually reaches after having some number of drinks.

1 Peter 4:3 Peter is referring back to the former life the old man of sin lived who indulged in "lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries". Peter is condeming drinking in 3 varying degrees/amounts. Excess of wine means just that where a person drinks so much maybe in passed out. Revellings refers to a wild party where one drinks and loses his inhibition acting foolishly. At the time of King James a banquet was something they would have after eating a meal sitting/standing around conversing while sipping on drinks. There is no set amount, it can refer to small amounts up to large amounts. The verb form of banquet (poto) is in Matthew 10:42 (to drink) and is associated with an amount small as a cup:
I Peter 4:3 and 'Social Drinking'

Christians are commanded to be sober (as in 1 Peter 5:8). The Greek word for sober is nepho with "ne" meaning not and "pho" meaning drink so nepho literally means "not drink".
"The Greek word nepho literally means “drink no wine” (The Complete Biblical Library). Vines Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words says it means “to be free from the influence of intoxicants.” The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says it is the opposite of intoxication. Liddell and Scott’s Lexicon says it means “to be sober, to live soberly, especially to drink no wine.” Stephanus’s Thesaurus says “he who abstains from wine.” Bretschneider defines it as “I am sober, I abstain from wine.” The Greek Dictionary of Byzantius says nepho means “one who does not drink wine.” The Greek-French Lexicon says “abstinence from wine, sobriety.” Robinson’s New Testament Lexicon defines it as “to be sober, temperate, abstinent, especially in respect to wine.” Younge’s English and Greek Lexicon says it means “without wine.” Even Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries admit nepho means “to abstain from wine, keep sober."
Drinking in the New Testament
Drink No Wine | Battle Creek Church of Christ

You said you "would vote no on that measure" yet you have no problem with social drinking. Why then vote no?

But back to my question for those that approved. Did their vote send the signal that their "right" to drink is more important than the death of 1000's of innocent men, women & children slaughtered/murdered at the hands of a drunk driver on the highways, the domestic violence and abuse at the hands of those who are drink/drunk, the deaths caused by alcohol are all acceptable consequences? Drinking is more important to them than the consequences? I am to believe God is supposedly satisfied with these consequences?

I believe you're overthinking this. Jesus himself turned water into wine at Cana. And this was after they had already been drinking.

And Paul advised Timothy that deacons should not be heavy drinkers. The two Bibles I use the most, the ESV and NET, use the phrases "not addicted to much wine" and "not given to excessive drinking". Paul is describing moderation, not abstinence.

I think you're placing a rule upon believers that neither Jesus nor Paul did.

Jipsah · Apr 24, 2021

Taodeching said:
I do every Sunday when I partake of the Body and Blood of the Lord per Biblical instruction and we sure don't do it to get drunk. I know those who have an occasional beer that don't do it to get drunk. You should not be so fast to judge

But dang, bro, judging is so much doggone fun!

tall73 · Apr 24, 2021

ChetSinger said:
I believe you're overthinking this. Jesus himself turned water into wine at Cana. And this was after they had already been drinking.

And Paul advised Timothy that deacons should not be heavy drinkers. The two Bibles I use the most, the ESV and NET, use the phrases "not addicted to much wine" and "not given to excessive drinking". Paul is describing moderation, not abstinence.

I think you're placing a rule upon believers that neither Jesus nor Paul did.

Agreed, and He noted that John the Baptist did not drink, but He did. And they accused Him of being a "winebibber" and friend of sinners, because He did drink with them.

tall73 · Apr 24, 2021

Butterball1 said:
Again, the inceptive verb shows drunkeness is a process. A process has a beginning point, inception point and with the process of drunkeness it is the first drink.

There is not any verses in the NT of Jesus or Apostles saying social drinking is acceptable.

Not social drinking as in knocking back several beers. But drinking small amounts while eating with others, yes.

John 2:9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Luk 7:35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”

1Ti_5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

Again, in Eph 5:18 Paul is condemning the PROCESS of drunkeness which includes the frist drink one takes as much as the last drink and every drink inbetween. Drunkenness is a matter of degree not a destination one eventually reaches after having some number of drinks.

If they permit drinking, but not drunkenness, then it sounds like there is something between one drink with food and drunkenness. They apparently knew what that looked like because they drank wine regularly. It was a source of nutrition in a time when that was hard to come by. And it was one of the few readily available somewhat sweet tasting things they had to enjoy. Hence they used it at special occasions with food, while rejoicing.

1 Peter 4:3 Peter is referring back to the former life the old man of sin lived who indulged in "lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries".

You just bolded EXCESS of wine. I think I will let that speak for itself.

Of course partying with lots of alcohol is bad.

At the time of King James a banquet was something they would have after eating a meal sitting/standing around conversing while sipping on drinks. There is no set amount, it can refer to small amounts up to large amounts. The verb form of banquet (poto) is in Matthew 10:42 (to drink) and is associated with an amount small as a cup:
I Peter 4:3 and 'Social Drinking'

Modern versions render it drinking parties for a reason.

1Pe 4:3 For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.

Strongs:
πότος
From the alternate of G4095; a drinking bout or carousal

Vincet's Word studies:
Banquetings (πότοις)
Lit., drinking-bouts. Rev., carousings.

Cambridge Bible:
banquetings] Literally, drinking-parties. The word went naturally as in other Greek writers with “revellings.”

But if you want an approved banquet PROVIDED by the Lord:

Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

Christians are commanded to be sober (as in 1 Peter 5:8). The Greek word for sober is nepho with "ne" meaning not and "pho" meaning drink so nepho literally means "not drink".

The word sober is used for watchfulness in general. The whole text makes that plain:

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

And compare:

2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2Ti 4:5 σὺ δὲ νῆφε ἐν πᾶσι, κακοπάθησον, ἔργον ποίησον εὐαγγελιστοῦ, τὴν διακονίαν σου πληροφόρησον.

And in case you think Paul is saying no wine:

1Ti_5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

You said you "would vote no on that measure" yet you have no problem with social drinking. Why then vote no?

Because there is a difference between drinking with food over time, infrequently, and without excess (as the Bible texts describe), and drinking at bars where people are often drinking more than a little, regardless of food, in a setting where people could be operating vehicles afterwards.

But back to my question for those that approved. Did their vote send the signal that their "right" to drink is more important than the death of 1000's of innocent men, women & children slaughtered/murdered at the hands of a drunk driver on the highways, the domestic violence and abuse at the hands of those who are drink/drunk, the deaths caused by alcohol are all acceptable consequences? Drinking is more important to them than the consequences? I am to believe God is supposedly satisfied with these consequences?

Seeing as how I have argued against people starting to drink in the thread, quoted statistics on alcohol use in rapes, mentioned my experience in auto liability work where alcohol is all too frequently responsible, mentioned liver damage etc, I think I have made clear my position that alcohol is dangerous.

I said I would vote no. And I have done so on such questions. So what other people decide based on their values is not something I have to answer for.

I have outlined what the Bible texts describe. They at times drank while eating, over time, as part of a celebration.

The Bible warns against the deceptiveness of alcohol and drunkenness. It forbids drunkenness. It does not forbid any alcohol. So if someone is already drinking occasionally, but not getting drunk, I will not forbid it. Because the Scriptures didn't forbid it.

Jaxxi · Apr 24, 2021

tall73 said:
Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental belief #22

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

We are called to be a godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with biblical principles in all aspects of personal and social life. For the Spirit to recreate in us the character of our Lord we involve ourselves only in those things that will produce Christlike purity, health, and joy in our lives. This means that our amusement and entertainment should meet the highest standards of Christian taste and beauty. While recognizing cultural differences, our dress is to be simple, modest, and neat, befitting those whose true beauty does not consist of outward adornment but in the imperishable ornament of a gentle and quiet spirit. It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Gen. 7:2; Exod. 20:15; Lev. 11:1-47; Ps. 106:3; Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; 2 Cor. 6:14-7:1; 10:5; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 2:4; 4:8; 1 Tim. 2:9, 10; Titus 2:11, 12; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 John 2:6; 3 John 2.)

Historic Stand for Temperance Principles | Adventist.org

The Seventh-day Adventist Church reaffirms its historic stand for the principles of temperance, upholds its policies and programs supporting Article 21 of the Fundamental Beliefs, and calls upon each member to affirm and reveal a life commitment to abstinence from any form of alcohol and tobacco and irresponsible use of drugs.

------------

The Bible does not prohibit all alcohol. It does prohibit becoming drunk.

The Bible warns against the deceptiveness of wine and strong drink because of the possibility of becoming drunk.

The Bible in some situations forbids drinking alcohol (the priest while going into the sanctuary, someone taking a Nazirite vow, advises against kings drinking, etc.).

However, some texts make plain alcohol was not always forbidden.

Deu 14:22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year.
Deu 14:23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there,
Deu 14:25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses
Deu 14:26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
Deu 14:27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
Deu 14:28 “At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns.
Deu 14:29 And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the sojourner, the fatherless, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do.

Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.
Isa 25:7 And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken.

1Ti_5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’
Luk 7:34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Luk 7:35 Yet wisdom is justified by all her children.”

The one taking a Nazirite vow would separate himself from wine and strong drink for a time. But then would got back to it afterwards. Wine is distinguished from juice of grapes in the text.

Num 6:1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Num 6:2 “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the LORD,
Num 6:3 he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried.
Num 6:4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.
Num 6:5 “All the days of his vow of separation, no razor shall touch his head. Until the time is completed for which he separates himself to the LORD, he shall be holy. He shall let the locks of hair of his head grow long.
Num 6:6 “All the days that he separates himself to the LORD he shall not go near a dead body.
Num 6:7 Not even for his father or for his mother, for brother or sister, if they die, shall he make himself unclean, because his separation to God is on his head.
Num 6:8 All the days of his separation he is holy to the LORD.
Num 6:9 “And if any man dies very suddenly beside him and he defiles his consecrated head, then he shall shave his head on the day of his cleansing; on the seventh day he shall shave it.
Num 6:10 On the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves or two pigeons to the priest to the entrance of the tent of meeting,
Num 6:11 and the priest shall offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering, and make atonement for him, because he sinned by reason of the dead body. And he shall consecrate his head that same day
Num 6:12 and separate himself to the LORD for the days of his separation and bring a male lamb a year old for a guilt offering. But the previous period shall be void, because his separation was defiled.
Num 6:13 “And this is the law for the Nazirite, when the time of his separation has been completed: he shall be brought to the entrance of the tent of meeting,
Num 6:14 and he shall bring his gift to the LORD, one male lamb a year old without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb a year old without blemish as a sin offering, and one ram without blemish as a peace offering,
Num 6:15 and a basket of unleavened bread, loaves of fine flour mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers smeared with oil, and their grain offering and their drink offerings.
Num 6:16 And the priest shall bring them before the LORD and offer his sin offering and his burnt offering,
Num 6:17 and he shall offer the ram as a sacrifice of peace offering to the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread. The priest shall offer also its grain offering and its drink offering.
Num 6:18 And the Nazirite shall shave his consecrated head at the entrance of the tent of meeting and shall take the hair from his consecrated head and put it on the fire that is under the sacrifice of the peace offering.
Num 6:19 And the priest shall take the shoulder of the ram, when it is boiled, and one unleavened loaf out of the basket and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them on the hands of the Nazirite, after he has shaved the hair of his consecration,
Num 6:20 and the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD. They are a holy portion for the priest, together with the breast that is waved and the thigh that is contributed. And after that the Nazirite may drink wine.
Num 6:21 “This is the law of the Nazirite. But if he vows an offering to the LORD above his Nazirite vow, as he can afford, in exact accordance with the vow that he takes, then he shall do in addition to the law of the Nazirite.”

Back in that day they didn't have much else to drink did they? How did they come across wine anyways? Their grape juice kept going bad or what? They could have just drank the juice and not let it go bad.

Pavel Mosko · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
That’s why I think there are so many people who respond to the Sabbath threads, somewhere down deep is your conscience trying to tell you that God’s Ten Commandments are a unit and cannot be separated or be erased.

Not at all. The whole origins of the weekend go back nearly two Millenia where the early Christians who were Jewish held to the Sabbath out of habit, but also worshiped on "The Lord's Day" aka the day Christ rose from the dead, Sunday. A day that also held a lot of significance in Judaism.

Eighth Day, First Day — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

The Sabbath threads are simply responding to the attempted guilt tripping of various legalistic groups (Who are Johnny Come Latelys of Church History) that are trying to second guess early church leaders like Ignatius of Antioch and other Apostolic Fathers who were mentored by people like Saint John the Divine. You may say "They have no authority over the Bible" (Your interpretation of the Bible) but you and your leaders have even less since you do not have direct personal knowledge of the NT writers nor were you actually consecrated and mentored by them to lead the Church!

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Pavel Mosko said:
Not at all. The whole origins of the weekend go back nearly two Millenia where the early Christians who were Jewish held to the Sabbath out of habit, but also worshiped on "The Lord's Day" aka the day Christ rose from the dead, Sunday. A day that also held a lot of significance in Judaism.

Eighth Day, First Day — Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations

The Sabbath threads are simply responding to the attempted guilt tripping of various legalistic groups (Who are Johnny Come Latelys of Church History) that are trying to second guess early church leaders like Ignatius of Antioch and other Apostolic Fathers who were mentored by people like Saint John the Divine. You may say "They have no authority over the Bible" (Your interpretation in how to apply it) but you have even less since you do not have direct personal knowledge of the NT writers nor were you actually consecrated and mentored by them to lead the Church!

If you are feeling guilt over biblical scripture being shared with you that is the Holy Spirit and not anything an SDA is saying. Most of the SDA posts are filled with scripture quotes, most of the responses we receive back is filled with personal opinions.

We did not make God’s commandments or the day God chose as His only holy day. Exodus 20:8-11. These are God’s Word that He both wrote and spoke and it amazes me the only scripture in the entire Bible that was personally written by God people think was erased. Sunday worship is a commandment of the Roman Catholic Church not a commandment of God.

tall73 · Apr 24, 2021

Jaxxi said:
Back in that day they didn't have much else to drink did they? How did they come across wine anyways? Their grape juice kept going bad or what? They could have just drank the juice and not let it go bad.

Yes, the grape harvest was separate from the grain harvest. So it was another chance to get calories. But when you have a harvest, you can't consume it all immediately. And if they did they wouldn't have food after that.

Under the covenant with Israel, if they obeyed Him God would bless their harvests. He describes that here:

Lev 26:3 “If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them,
Lev 26:4 then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
Lev 26:5 Your threshing shall last to the time of the grape harvest, and the grape harvest shall last to the time for sowing. And you shall eat your bread to the full and dwell in your land securely.

He is describing remarkable blessing here. Usually you have the grain harvest for a while, then you have a slight break. Then you have the grape harvest, and you have another break. Here He promises to bless them so much that the processing of the grain that is taken in will last all the way to the grape harvest. And the grape harvest will last all the way to the time of planting again.

And then He summarizes the point, they will be full and dwell securely. This was one of the blessings of covenant obedience.

Even if the harvest was a usual one, it would hopefully yield more than they could eat right then, because they need to live on it throughout the year. So with some of it they fermented it to preserve it. You can see the process referred to in a couple of places.

Here Elihu, who waited until those elder had spoken, describes how he is ready to burst because he has held back his words:

Job 32:6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said: “I am young in years, and you are aged; therefore I was timid and afraid to declare my opinion to you.
Job 32:7 I said, ‘Let days speak, and many years teach wisdom.’
Job 32:8 But it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.
Job 32:9 It is not the old who are wise, nor the aged who understand what is right.
Job 32:10 Therefore I say, ‘Listen to me; let me also declare my opinion.’
Job 32:11 “Behold, I waited for your words, I listened for your wise sayings, while you searched out what to say.
Job 32:12 I gave you my attention, and, behold, there was none among you who refuted Job or who answered his words.

Job 32:17 I also will answer with my share; I also will declare my opinion.
Job 32:18 For I am full of words; the spirit within me constrains me.
Job 32:19 Behold, my belly is like wine that has no vent; like new wineskins ready to burst.
Job 32:20 I must speak, that I may find relief; I must open my lips and answer.

Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament
Like bottles of new wine, which has to undergo the action of fermentation

The gasses released cause expansion of the skin to nearly the breaking point. We see this in the parable of Jesus about new wine in new wine skins. If you used a wineskin that had already expanded it was old and brittle and could not expand again. It therefore would burst.

Mat 9:17 Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved.

Pavel Mosko · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
If you are feeling guilt over biblical scripture being shared with you that is the Holy Spirit and not anything an SDA is saying.

LOL. Yeah this strikes me as a kind of statement that might have been made by the obsessive compulsive Circumciser faction during the earliest days of Christianity, as they quoted the the OT verses regarding circumcision and told people to heed God's word and ignore the preaching of saint Paul because after all we should ignore the mere "teaching of men" and focus on God's word.

It is disingenuous when people like you are the ones bringing it up and harping on it.

Jamdoc · Apr 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
What do you believe ought to have been done for an Israelite soldier back then who was mortally wounded but may take several days to die. Should they be given wine? Or just be allowed to suffer.

I don't think that was the context of the verse is what I believe. This wasn't a prescription about what to do with dying soldiers but rather instructions on how to live a God honoring kingly life.
Don't go after harlots, don't drink alcohol, and find a virtuous woman to be your queen.
It's advice from a King's mother.
What you said can be true, it's just not the context of that verse is all.

Leaf473 · Apr 24, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I don't think that was the context of the verse is what I believe. This wasn't a prescription about what to do with dying soldiers but rather instructions on how to live a God honoring kingly life.
Don't go after harlots, don't drink alcohol, and find a virtuous woman to be your queen.
It's advice from a King's mother.
What you said can be true, it's just not the context of that verse is all.

Right, we have different takes on the passage.

What do you believe ought to be done with dying soldiers?

SabbathBlessings · Apr 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Right, we have different takes on the passage.

What do you believe ought to be done with dying soldiers?

Prayers. Trust in God. If I’m dying I want a clear mind to communicate with our Savior. Wouldn’t it be a shame if alcohol interfered with my judgement and I forget to ask for forgiveness of my sins or sin because it interfered?

Leaf473 · Apr 24, 2021

imge said:
Prayers. Trust in God. If I’m dying I want a clear mind to communicate with our Savior. Wouldn’t it be a shame if alcohol interfered with my judgement and I forget to ask for forgiveness of my sins or sin because it interfered?

We definitely want to be praying at all times!

Our hypothetical Israelite soldier is in intense pain, so he is already probably not thinking clearly, especially if he has a concussion or has lost a lot of blood. And though he is in the process of dying, death may be several days away.

But yes, definitely, if there is some blockage in our relationship with God, we want to take care of that right now. We never know when we will be killed instantly, without warning.

Jamdoc · Apr 24, 2021

Leaf473 said:
Right, we have different takes on the passage.

What do you believe ought to be done with dying soldiers?

Having been a Hospital Corpsman, Morphine, holding their hand, and prayer.

Leaf473 · Apr 25, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Having been a Hospital Corpsman, Morphine, holding their hand, and prayer.

Yes, I agree. And for the Israelite soldier living in a time and place where morphine is not available, alcohol can be used instead, imo.

RBPerry · Apr 25, 2021

It amazes me how the SDA can ignore scientific reality, but that's the way it is. It is a proven fact that the Mediterranean diet is the healthiest diet. The issue should be moderation and not restrictions of meats, including pork products. Coffee, Tea, alcohol can actually have health benefits in moderation, these are established scientific facts.

To claim that wine mentioned in the bible was grape juice is just pure non sense. As far as I know the SDA are the only ones that have claimed that, and they should be embarrassed by making such a statement. Even most of the legalistic denominations that prohibit alcohol realize it was actual wine. Also all one needs to do is look up the Greek word of wine, and the Greek for grape juice that happens to be two words and I forget what they are.

One of the biggest issue with many vegetarians is a lack of nutritional balance. A healthy male body should have about 12% body fat, and 14 to 15% for women.
At Pentecost Peter was accused of being drunk, his response was, "it is only 9 am, it is too early to be drunk". Now I do not believe in excessive drinking is healthy, it isn't, and should be avoided.
Of course tobacco, and illegal drugs should be avoided, that is just common sense.

The biggest problem with meat eaters is over eating, example a healthy steak portion for most people is 6 ounces, however you will see people eat 12 to 16 ounces, and less vegetables and fruits. That is one of the main reasons you will find vegetarians healthier than the average person.
Foods that I refer to as junk foods are also a problem with many people. There is no question that a balanced diet should be our standard.

As far as body weight goes the BMI is merely a guide line, the true measure is how much body fat a person has. Say two men that are 5'11" both weighing 200 pounds, one could be considered overweight while the other normal. Why, because a athlete will have more mussel and less fat than the person that actually has more body fat and weighs the same.

When is comes to dietary, the SDA take common sense out of the equation. They do the same thing with their dress codes for women. Speaking of makeup, I heard a preach comment on the subject he said "if the barn needs painting, paint it." Here again, moderation and good taste.

Adventists-Bible does not prohibit all alcohol.

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