Adventist Investigative Judgment

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In 9:7 it is ambiguous as to whether the offering was on the alter or is later

It is not a technical term with one use.


Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mat 19:13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people,

Luk 23:36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine

Act 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

The author of Hebrews has other uses clearly not indicating death:

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

 

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Investigative Judgment in person

There is an investigative judgment of professed believers in God, but it is not in absentia as Adventists indicate, but is before the judgment seat of Christ, in person, at Jesus' coming. It involves us being present, giving an account, blowing at the name of Jesus, confessing, and the secrets of the heart are revealed. This resolves any issues of God's justice that the investigative judgment of Adventists is meant to address.


2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

The judgment is before Christ, at His appearing. He judges the living and the dead at that time.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present, as in the Adventist IJ. This is an in-person judgment before Christ.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Jesus discloses the purposes of the heart when He comes.

Bob indicates that these clear texts about our in-person judgment before Christ do not in fact indicate an in-person judgment, just as we are not physically present in Ephesians 2:5

The same sort of "not literally present in person" discussion for the saints is given in Eph 2:5

Saints seated in heaven with Christ all this time -- Eph 2: 5 "even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", ... not yet "in person"..

In this passage we are assured of the work of God for us. It refers back to themes from Ephesians chapter 1. We are blessed IN Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

Paul then recounts a series of blessings that we have by being in Christ (these blessings come through union with Him, by being in Him).

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world...

Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption...

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance....

Eph 1:13 In him you also were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit...

After recounting the blessings that we have by being IN Christ Paul then relates how He wants the Ephesians to know the full extent of God's wisdom, power, etc. available for them:

Eph 1:15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints,
Eph 1:16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
Eph 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might
Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

By the working of God's mighty strength Christ was raised from the dead and seated at God's right hand in the heavenly places. There He reigns over all things in behalf of the church, which is His body.

It is in this context that we encounter the text referenced by Bob:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

We spiritually participate in the death, burial and reseurrection to new life of Christ through being IN Him. We are made alive together WITH Christ (who as we saw in chapter 1 is seated in the heavenly realms). We are spiritually there with Him, where He reigns over all things for us. And we will in the future "coming ages" we will be reigning with Him physically.

Now this spiritual reality pictured here of our position and place by being "In Christ" spiritually and connected to Him as the head of the church, does not in any way explain the texts about in person judgment.

The texts show us kneeling, confessing, given an account, etc. But in the Adventist IJ that is not the case at all.

From Great Controversy chapter 28:

The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon—none know how soon—it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition: "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is."

a bit later:

Perilous is the condition of those who, growing weary of their watch, turn to the attractions of the world. While the man of business is absorbed in the pursuit of gain, while the pleasure lover is seeking indulgence, while the daughter of fashion is arranging her adornments—it may be in that hour the Judge of all the earth will pronounce the sentence: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting."

Ellen White notes that we don't know when the judgment will begin on the living. And we do not know when our case is reviewed, and we may be absorbed in the world at the time when we are weighed and found wanting.

This in absentia judgment described by Ellen White sometime prior to Jesus' coming, without our knowledge, without us giving an account, without us confessing, bowing, having the secrets of our heart revealed, and receiving commendation from God, etc. is not what the Bible texts describe

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Bob claims the IJ is seen in Romans 2

However, Romans 2 also makes plain that it is "on that day", when God judges the secrets of men.

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

On what day? At His coming, when He is plainly stated to reveal the purposes of the heart.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.


Bob also indicates we see the investigative judgment in 2 Cor 5:10. However, this too does not fit the Adventist investigative judgment:

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

At the judgment seat of Christ we receive what is due. That is not an absentia judgment.

We see this spelled out in additional texts, besides those already reviewed:

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present, and do not know when your name is reviewed.

 

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Adventists have changed the type from application of blood to investigation of books.

The work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the day of Atonement was a cleansing application of blood to make atonement for the sins of the people and the holy place. Adventists have changed the type to be an examination of the cases of individual believers, which is not pictured as the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

From the Seventh-day Adventist belief statement:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus.

Leviticus shows that the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is an application of blood to atone for the sins of the people, and cleanse the sanctuary.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Adventists have changed the type. Instead of a provision of blood for all their sins, Adventists have posited that the high priest is reviewing individual cases from books. But as can be seen above, it was not books that were pictured, but an application of cleansing blood.

 

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The sin offering does not transfer sin to the sanctuary, but makes atonement in the holy place, Part 1

Adventists claim that the sin offering transferred sins to the sanctuary. The Scriptures indicate that the sin offering provides atonement and forgiveness for the sinner, and makes atonement in the holy place.

Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.


Here are the details:

Ellen White summarizes the Adventist position in Great Controversy, chapter 23:

As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary.

Bob indicated this is seen in Leviticus 10:16

The mechanism for transferring the sins confessed over the head of the sin offering (taking sin away from the guilty person and transferring it) - was the priesthood. The Priest was either to bring that blood of the sin offering into the sanctuary or else eat some portion of the sin offering and then take it into the sanctuary in the form of the "person" of the Priest.

Lev 10:16 But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, 17 “Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you certainly should have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded!

Let's examine the text:

Lev 10:16 Now Moses diligently inquired about the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it was burned up! And he was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the surviving sons of Aaron, saying,
Lev 10:17 “Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may take away the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?
Lev 10:18 Behold, its blood was not brought into the inner part of the sanctuary. You certainly ought to have eaten it in the sanctuary, as I commanded.”
Lev 10:19 And Aaron said to Moses, “Behold, today they have offered their sin offering and their burnt offering before the LORD, and yet such things as these have happened to me! If I had eaten the sin offering today, would the LORD have approved?”
Lev 10:20 And when Moses heard that, he approved.

The first thing that we can note is nowhere does the text say that the sin is transferred to the sanctuary. If this is the text that Bob and Ellen White lean on for this transfer, then it is inadequate, as it does not say such at all.

Moreover, Aaron makes it clear that the purpose of the sin offering is to take away sin and make atonement for the sinner. Now Bob alleges that this means to transfer, but it is not stated, and to atone for is not to transfer.

The situation itself is explained by the texts which speak of the sin offering.

Per Leviticus 4 sin offerings for the anointed priest or for a situation in which the whole camp commits a sin require the blood to be brought into the sanctuary, in the holy place.

For example:

Lev 4:13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,
Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
Lev 4:16 Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull into the tent of meeting,
Lev 4:17 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil.
Lev 4:18 And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is in the tent of meeting before the LORD, and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:19 And all its fat he shall take from it and burn on the altar.
Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

The elders lay hands on the animal while it is killed. As Bob indicates this is likely showing transfer of sins from the elders, representing the people, to the animal. In the fulfillment this represents Jesus taking on our sin:

1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Peter references Isaiah 53:

Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

In Leviticus 4 some of the blood is brought into the holy place, and some goes at the base of the altar outside, at the entrance to the tent of meeting.

The result of this is not stated to be transfer. Rather:

Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

The sin is not transferred, rather the priest makes atonement for the people and they are forgiven.

However, for sin offerings for a leader or a common person the blood does not go into the sanctuary. It is ministered at the alter of burnt offering outside. This likely shows greater sin when the whole congregation or anointed priest is involved, requiring the atonement to go even deeper into the sanctuary.

The result is still forgiveness and atonement:

Lev 4:34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.


The incident in Leviticus 10 appears to be a sin offering for a leader or common person, as the blood did not go into the sanctuary.

Leviticus 6 spells out what is to happen in this instance:

Lev 6:24 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 6:25 “Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the sin offering. In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD; it is most holy.
Lev 6:26 The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. In a holy place it shall be eaten, in the court of the tent of meeting.
Lev 6:27 Whatever touches its flesh shall be holy, and when any of its blood is splashed on a garment, you shall wash that on which it was splashed in a holy place.
Lev 6:28 And the earthenware vessel in which it is boiled shall be broken. But if it is boiled in a bronze vessel, that shall be scoured and rinsed in water.
Lev 6:29 Every male among the priests may eat of it; it is most holy.
Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

We see a few things that explain the situation in Leviticus 10. The sin offering is stated to be most holy. It must be eaten in a holy place. In Leviticus 10 the priest explains that something had happened, resulting in uncleanness so the priest was not in a holy state to be able to eat the sin offering. When Aaron heard this he was satisfied they had done what was right.

When a sin offering's blood is not taken into the holy place the offering is to be eaten (sin of a commoner or leader).

When blood is brought in the purpose is to make atonement. But not just for the sinner. It makes atonement in the holy place:

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

And in Leviticus 10 we also see that the eating of the sin offering also did not transfer, but rather made atonement:

Lev 10:17 “Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may take away the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?
Lev 10:18 Behold, its blood was not brought into the inner part of the sanctuary. You certainly ought to have eaten it in the sanctuary, as I commanded.”

So in every passage which speaks of it the sin offering is to make atonement for the sinner, and bring forgiveness for the sinner. And it is to make atonement in the holy place, and to make atonement for them before the Lord.

It does not say it transfers, but atones.

And why would it not? That was the purpose of blood in the various rites per Scripture:

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

The blood points to the precious blood of Christ, shed for us! His blood does not transport sin! He took on our sins to die for them in our place, as the animal died for the sins of the sinner in the type.

 

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Sin does not transfer, but atones, forgives, cleanses, Part 2


Jesus' blood does not transfer as Ellen White stated in Spirit of Prophecy volume 4:

As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin-offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ. 4SP pg. 266

This statement is so outrageous that when she made a parallel statement in the Great Controversy it was softened:

As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary.

The notion that the "blood of Christ" transfers sin is not as plainly stated in the second quote. Perhaps because anyone who reads about the blood of Christ in the Scriptures know that the blood forgives, atones, and cleanses.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Jesus entered once for all into the heavenly sanctuary by means of His own blood, securing eternal redemption.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is the fulfillment of the sin offering. When we come to Jesus and confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from unrighteousness. His blood does not transfer sin, but forgive and cleanse it.

Mat_26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation/sacrifice of atonement by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

Heb 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.

1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot

Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood

Jesus' blood forgives, justifies, atones, cleanses, redeems, ransoms. He died for our sins, not to move them around.

The sin offering is just one of the rites that speak of forgiveness and atonement by blood. Each of the various sacrifices and offerings, and appointed times, etc. pointed to some aspect of Jesus' atoning work for us.

The sin offering is a picture of confession of sin by a single person, for a particular incident. It shows the transfer of sin to the animal, and the death of the animal. The blood ministration by the priest makes atonement for the sinner, and forgiveness. And it makes atonement in the holy place. It points to the blood of Jesus which cleanses us from our sins when we confess them.

The Day of Atonement is a corporate picture of provision for sins for the whole camp. The work of the high priest in the sanctuary on that day is to apply atoning blood. it atones for all the sins of the people and cleanses the sanctuary.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

This is a picture of Jesus' ministry for us when He died, entered into God's presence, and presented Himself on our behalf as the sacrifice:

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

He is not dead, but alive, and He presented His completed offering in His own person. That blood ministration is the basis of all of His priestly ministry from that point on. By His death, entry, and presentation He made purification for sins:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. Having made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

He did all of the blood work. Now we come to Him in real time to receive the benefits of His completed blood work:

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

As in the type, if anyone does not look to Jesus and His ministration they will be cut off. If they do not accept His provision, they must pay for their own sins with their life:

Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.

But the work of the priest in the sin offering and the Day of Atonement was cleansing application of blood. We either accept it or reject it.

We must endure to the end to be saved. If someone turns from the sacrifice of Christ then they will receive the penalty of their sins. Bob and I agree on the need to endure to the end.

Some ask why the sanctuary would have all the sins of the people through the year if they were forgiven in the sin offering.

Because they are two different pictures. One is a picture of individual forgiveness for a single sin. The other is a corporate provision for all sin throughout time. Both indicate they make atonement. Each offering and appointed time spelled out different lessons about Christ's saving work.

How does the sin get to the sanctuary if not by the sin offering?

There is no need for the sins to be transferred by the sin offering. The reason for their being sin is given in the text of Leviticus 16 itself:

Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Sin contaminates by its presence, without the need of the sin offering. We see an example of defilement of the sanctuary, without a sin offering in Numbers 19:20:

Num 19:20 “If the man who is unclean does not cleanse himself, that person shall be cut off from the midst of the assembly, since he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. Because the water for impurity has not been thrown on him, he is unclean.

The one who did not cleanse himself of uncleanness defiled the sanctuary by so doing. His presence in the midst of the people caused defilement, so he was to be cut off.

This defilement of the sanctuary is not because of a sin offering. In fact, the red heifer is a sin offering, but the one who does not cleanse himself does not avail himself of it.

The sanctuary is defiled by NOT availing oneself of the sin offering, and remaining unclean.

Num 19:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying,
Num 19:2 “This is the statute of the law that the LORD has commanded: Tell the people of Israel to bring you a red heifer without defect, in which there is no blemish, and on which a yoke has never come.
Num 19:3 And you shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and it shall be taken outside the camp and slaughtered before him.
Num 19:4 And Eleazar the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger, and sprinkle some of its blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times.
Num 19:5 And the heifer shall be burned in his sight. Its skin, its flesh, and its blood, with its dung, shall be burned.
Num 19:6 And the priest shall take cedarwood and hyssop and scarlet yarn, and throw them into the fire burning the heifer.
Num 19:7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. But the priest shall be unclean until evening.
Num 19:8 The one who burns the heifer shall wash his clothes in water and bathe his body in water and shall be unclean until evening.
Num 19:9 And a man who is clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer and deposit them outside the camp in a clean place. And they shall be kept for the water for impurity for the congregation of the people of Israel; it is a sin offering.
Num 19:10 And the one who gathers the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes and be unclean until evening. And this shall be a perpetual statute for the people of Israel, and for the stranger who sojourns among them.
Num 19:11 “Whoever touches the dead body of any person shall be unclean seven days.
Num 19:12 He shall cleanse himself with the water on the third day and on the seventh day, and so be clean. But if he does not cleanse himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not become clean.
Num 19:13 Whoever touches a dead person, the body of anyone who has died, and does not cleanse himself, defiles the tabernacle of the LORD, and that person shall be cut off from Israel; because the water for impurity was not thrown on him, he shall be unclean. His uncleanness is still on him.
Num 19:14 “This is the law when someone dies in a tent: everyone who comes into the tent and everyone who is in the tent shall be unclean seven days.
Num 19:15 And every open vessel that has no cover fastened on it is unclean.
Num 19:16 Whoever in the open field touches someone who was killed with a sword or who died naturally, or touches a human bone or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.
Num 19:17 For the unclean they shall take some ashes of the burnt sin offering, and fresh water shall be added in a vessel.
Num 19:18 Then a clean person shall take hyssop and dip it in the water and sprinkle it on the tent and on all the furnishings and on the persons who were there and on whoever touched the bone, or the slain or the dead or the grave.
Num 19:19 And the clean person shall sprinkle it on the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day. Thus on the seventh day he shall cleanse him, and he shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and at evening he shall be clean.
Num 19:20 “If the man who is unclean does not cleanse himself, that person shall be cut off from the midst of the assembly, since he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. Because the water for impurity has not been thrown on him, he is unclean.
Num 19:21 And it shall be a statute forever for them. The one who sprinkles the water for impurity shall wash his clothes, and the one who touches the water for impurity shall be unclean until evening.
Num 19:22 And whatever the unclean person touches shall be unclean, and anyone who touches it shall be unclean until evening.”

 

[tall73]

Daniel 7 does not show an investigative judgment of individual professed believers

Adventists assert that Daniel 7 shows a pre-advent judgment on professed believers in God. However, when reading Daniel 7 it is clear the judgment is on the beasts/nations and the little horn, not on professed believers of God. After describing the first three beasts, we see:

7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

9 “I watched till thrones were ]put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.


11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

This is a judgment on powers. The beast was slain. The others had their dominion removed. God has always judged nations throughout time. This does not picture a judgment on individual professed believers.

Nor does this describe the Adventist investigative judgment notion that Ellen White expresses:

So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. Great Controversy Chapter 28

In Daniel 7 you have judgment on nations that the Adventist church identifies as Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. Babylon and Persia, etc. were certainly not all professed followers of God. This does not meet the criteria that Ellen White spelled out. And it is a judgment on powers, rather than individuals.

Later in the passage we see the following statement about the saints:


22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

The saints are delivered from the beast by the Ancient of Days. They are here stated as a group. And this statement summarizes all the way to them possessing the kingdom, which is after the second coming.

The beast is killed at Jesus' coming:

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The summary statement in Daniel 7:22 extends to the time of this incident of the killing of the beast, and beyond. Which means that it extends beyond the second coming, to the time when the saints inherit the kingdom.

And the plain texts indicate that while God judged the beast prior to its destruction, the judgment of the saints happens at Jesus' coming.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

The judgment is before Christ, at His appearing. He judges the living and the dead at that time.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present, as in the Adventist IJ. This is an in-person judgment before Christ.

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Jesus discloses the purposes of the heart when He comes.

These texts all spell out that there is an individual judgment, but it is at the second coming of Christ, and occurs in person before Him.

Bob suggests that Revelation 14 shows judgment on the saints prior to Jesus' second coming.

6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

The hour of His judgment is come is also speaking of the judgment on the beast power, and on Babylon. Babylon is judged and is fallen. To remain within her is to suffer with her. She is already condemned.

And the warning is given that the one receiving the mark will likewise suffer. And even here the judgment against these powers is proclaimed, but the sentence is not yet carried out. We see that in subsequent chapters.

So if we summarize the order of events based on the various texts we see:

- God judges the nations (ongoing through time, and seen in the removal of authority from the three other beasts)
- God judges Babylon (from Revelation it appears this is not the nation of Babylon but a name used for another wicked power)
- God judges the little horn/beast which is persecuting the saints
- Jesus' Second coming. Judgment is executed on the beast at His coming.
- God judges the professed followers of God in person.
- The saints begin to possess the kingdom.

Jesus will judge the quick and dead at His appearing:

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 7 does not show an investigative judgment of individual professed believers

Dan 7 shows the judgment is

• future to the fall of the Roman empire Dan 7:8, Dan 7:23-26
  
• (future to Paul's day) -
  
• is before the 2nd coming. Dan 7:25-27

Rom 2:4-16 ALSO shows the judgment of all is future to Paul's day and is individual
2 Cor 5:10 ALSO the judgment of all is future to Paul's day and is individual

Rev 22 says that all the individual rewards are determined by the time the second coming begins "His reward is WITH Him". So then it is completed prior to the second coming BOTH in Dan 7 AND in the NT.

I don't see any way around these Bible details.

 

[tall73]

Daniel 8 points to cleansing from the activity of the little horn, not the Day of Atonement cleansing.

From the Adventist fundamental belief:

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

Adventists base the date of 1844 on the 2,300 days (evening/mornings) prophecy, which they indicate gives the date of the start of the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement cleansing of the sanctuary.

However, from the context of Daniel 8 it is clear that the cleansing of the sanctuary that is spoken of is not the Day of Atonement cleansing of all sins of the people, but rather a cleansing from the defiling activities of the little horn power. The Day of Atonement is not in view in the context.

Speaking of the little horn power:

Daniel 8:11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

The context is the place of His sanctuary being cast down by the little horn power. It is in this context that we see the question regarding the 2,300 days:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The context does not reference the Day of Atonement, but restoring the sanctuary after the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary. Therefore, Daniel 8 is not a support for the Adventist investigative judgment which is supposed to be a fulfillment of the work done by the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

 

[tall73]

It shows it is future to the fall of the Roman empire (future to Paul's day) and it is before the 2nd coming.

Yes, it shows the judgment on the little horn power/beast is prior to Jesus' second coming. It does not show the individual judgement on the saints at all.

Rom 2:4-16 shows it is future to Paul's day and is individual

Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Notice the parallels:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

It is at Jesus' coming that the secrets of the heart are judged.

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

It is at Jesus' appearing that the quick and dead are judged.

2 Cor 5:10 shows it is future to Paul's day and is individual

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

At the judgment seat of Christ we receive what is due. That is not an absentia judgment.

We see this spelled out:

Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We stand before the judgment seat
We bow
We confess
We give an account.

You cannot stand, bow, confess or give an account if you are not present.

Rev 22 says that all the individual rewards are determined by the time the second coming begins "His reward is WITH Him". So then it is completed prior to the second coming BOTH in Dan 7 AND in the NT.

Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

He is coming.....and there we receive our commendation from God:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.


It is at Jesus' appearing that He judges the quick and the dead:

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom

 

[tall73]

The start of the 2,300 day prophecy is not 457 BC

The Adventist sanctuary teaching indicates that the 2,300 day prophecy was incomplete when presented to Daniel in chapter 8. Therefore, they allege, the angel relayed the starting point of the prophecy in chapter 9, along with the 70 weeks.

However, the vision of Daniel 8 was not incomplete. In fact, Daniel was told it is true and he should seal it up for it referred to many days in the future. It was already presented, true, and would come to pass in the future, so should be sealed up for that time.

Daniel 8:26
“And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.


The starting point was already contained in chapter 8:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”
14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The question is "how long" the vision concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression.

Therefore the starting point is either:

a. the beginning of the events of the whole vision,

3 Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great.

b. The beginning of the activity of the little horn since the question has particular reference to its activities.

“How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”

Therefore there is no reason to impose the starting point from Daniel 9 when Daniel was already informed this vision was true and to seal it up before the events recorded in Daniel 9 happened.

Bob responds:

27 Then I, Daniel, was exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up and carried on the king’s business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was no one to explain it.

It says he did not understand it. There is no indication it was incomplete. The vision was said to be true and sealed up.

Moreover, Daniel being exhausted is not an indication of the vision being incomplete either. When Daniel was weak during another encounter he was strengthened to continue:

Dan 10:16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
Dan 10:17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
Dan 10:18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
Dan 10:19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

Daniel's lack of understanding was stated. Part of the confusion was that there was no sanctuary yet, having been destroyed. The 70 years of captivity foretold by Jeremiah was nearly up. And now He sees a vision of the sanctuary again being cast down by some power.

That does not indicate the vision was incomplete, but that he did not understand how it could be.

Dan 9
21 while I was still speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously,

Yes Gabriel was the same one who he had seen in the vision previously.

came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he instructed me and talked with me and said, “Daniel, I have come now to give you insight with understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, because you are highly esteemed; so pay attention to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

And what were Daniel's pleas about?:

Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans—
Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
Dan 9:3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes.
Dan 9:4 I prayed to the LORD my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,
Dan 9:5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules.

He is trying to figure out when the restoration from captivity and the end of the desolation of Jerusalem will happen. This was a source of confusion to him in Chapter 8. And now more of the timing of the restoration is revealed

But the vision of chapter 8 is dealing with something even beyond that of the casting down of the temple not yet even restored. That vision was already given, was true, and was to be sealed up.

This clarifies Daniel's question about the 70 years of captivity referenced by Jeremiah, and the rebuilding of the temple.

Dan 9 includes the start date/event - which was missing from Dan 8. The decree by Persia to rebuild - is the time in Dan 8 where the Ram is already risen and is dominant.

The vision was already true and was to be sealed up. There was no indication it was incomplete or it would not be ready to seal up. And the ram was dominant long before 457.

The question is literally "how long is the vision". It deals with the length of the vision in terms of the time period it covers. But does not provide a starting event during the time of the RAM (which the vision says is Medo-Persia).

I think it is more likely that the 2,300 evening/mornings relate to the length of the activities of the little horn, than the question of the length of the entire vision, due to how it is phrased:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long the vision, the daily and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”
14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

The question regarding how long deals with those actions specific to the little horn. So whether those are interpreted as literal days, or symbolic, it likely refers to the length of the actions of the little horn against the sanctuary.

And this is more in line with what Daniel was told:

Daniel 8:26
“And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future.

457 is not that far in the future. But the activity of the little horn would be.

Either way the vision was already true, and to be sealed up, not incomplete.

Now if your assertion is that it deals with the length of the vision, then you would not start it at 457 BC either.

The starting point of the vision is described.

Dan 8:1 In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.
Dan 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.
Dan 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
Dan 8:4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

The events in the vision start with the Ram in Elam. The Ram then begins its expansion west, north and south. It is coming from Elam which is to the east. These are historical conquests described, with Cyrus conquering Babylon, etc. and this started long before 457. In fact, it speaks about how none could stand before him or deliver out of his hand. This is not describing the period around 457, but the time before that when the Ram was conquering, coming out of Elam and then going West, North and South. The major conquests of the ram came before 457.

Creative Commons license, by user Morningstar1814

Elam - Wikipedia

Creative Commons by user Ali Zifan
Achaemenid Empire - Wikipedia

 

[tall73]

Jesus already completed the activity which the high priest undertook in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement in the first century, long before 1844.

On the Day of Atonement the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary is an application of blood to make atonement for the sins of the people and to atone for the sanctuary.

Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

On the Day of Atonement, the high priest would kill the sacrifice, enter into the sanctuary, and present blood before God to accomplish atonement.

Jesus is pictured as doing these things in the first century. Jesus died on the cross, entered the sanctuary, and presented Himself in God's presence as the completed sacrifice.

His death was once for all:

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God

His entry was once for all:

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy places, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

He already appeared in the presence of God for us as the completed sacrifice:

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hebrews therefore tells us that by the time He sat down on the throne to reign at the right hand of God, as High Priest, and King, He had made purification for sins:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, He, having made purification for sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

In the type cleansing sins included not just the death of the sacrifice, but the ministering of the blood. Jesus already accomplished that.

Jesus already completed the death, entry and presentation in God's presence of His sacrifice. He completed all of the blood work necessary, and now He serves as High Priest, ministering the benefits of that completed blood work.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

In the type when the high priest entered the sanctuary the cleansing application of blood was made. In the fulfillment Jesus entered in and presented Himself the completed sacrifice. Jesus is not dead. He doesn't bring containers of His own blood. Rather He presents His own body, the completed sacrifice in God's presence.

In the type the cleansing atoned for the sins of all the camp throughout the year. In the fulfillment Jesus presents His sacrifice so that every Christian from then on can look to Him in faith and accept this provision. It is the blood presented for the sins of all the people who believe in God.

When Jesus leaves the sanctuary He will carry out the rest of the activities pictured in the Day of Atonement when the high priest leaves the sanctuary.

 

[tall73]

Jesus completed all of the various blood ministrations for every sacrifice or appointed time in the law. He then ministers as High Priest on the basis of that completed blood ministration.

In the law there are various types of sacrifices spelled out, such as the sin offering, peace offering, red heifer offering for uncleanness (a type of sin offering), offerings for the inauguration of the sanctuary, offerings for the ratification of the covenant, offerings associated with the various appointed times such as the Sabbath, the New Moon, the Passover, the the Firstfruits, Feast of weeks, Trumpets, or the Day of Atonement, etc.

In the type these various offerings were made throughout the year at different times. However, Jesus fulfilled all of these at one time, on the cross. This is one of several differences between the earthly sanctuary, which is a shadow, and the heavenly, which is the reality.

By the time that Jesus sat at the right hand of God as King and as High Priest, He had already made purification for sins.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, He, having made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high

The cleansing application of blood for all sins was already done when Jesus sat down.

He had already done all of the blood ministration necessary for all of His Preistly ministry. In the type for atonement to be made required a sacrificial death, in some cases an entry into the sanctuary, and often the priest would have to present, pour out, sprinkle or apply blood to make atonement, depending on what type of offering was being presented.

Jesus did all of this by His death on the cross, entry into the sanctuary, and the presentation of Himself in God's presence on our behalf as the completed sacrifice. Jesus did not need to bring containers of His own shed blood. He is alive, and presents Himself.

Jesus' death on the cross is said to be once for all:

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God


After Jesus' death on the cross He entered into the true sanctuary in heaven, by means of His own blood:

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the holy places once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

This entry by Jesus is also said to be once for all. All of the various entries with blood are fulfilled in this one entry. The result is obtaining eternal redemption.

Jesus appeared in God's presence on our behalf:

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. 23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

This entry into God's presence is the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement type, in which the high priest would enter with blood into the presence of God to apply cleansing blood for the sins of all the people.

Offerings for other services are also seen to be fulfilled:

Red Heifer:
9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Ratifying the new covenant:
5 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.”

28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Inauguration of the sanctuary, and anointing of priests:
Hebrews 9:21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry.

Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us, for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Passover:
I Corinthians 5:7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


It should be noted, I agree with Bob in that while the blood was shed for the new covenant, the sin offerings, etc., the benefit of the blood is received by us in real time when we trust in Christ and are included in His covenant, and when we confess our sins, etc. In other words, Jesus completed the blood rite in the first century, and on that basis applies the benefits to us in our own time:

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In this way the completed blood sacrifice and presentation are not the end of Jesus' High Priesthood, but the beginning, as He now applies the purification made to each as they come to Him.

 

[tall73]

Hebrews 9:25 references the day of Atonement, which even Adventist scholars have admitted.

Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own


Even Adventist scholars have been forced to admit Day of Atonement references in verse 25.

Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary on Hebrews 10:1:

Compare ch. 9:25, 26, where the work of Christ is again contrasted with that of the earthly high priest on the Day of Atonement.

M.L. Andreasen in The Book of Hebrews:

Verses 25, 26. The priests entered the first apartment daily, the high priest once every year when he went into the most holy with the blood of the bullock and the goat. (127)

William Johnsson in his essay "Day of Atonement Allusions," which can be found in the DARCOM volume on Hebrews, lists 9:25 as clearly alluding to the Day of Atonement.

The context clearly points to a Day of Atonement allusion (high priest . . . yearly . . . blood [cf. 9:7]) (113)

Alwyn Salom in his appendix article in the Daniel and Revelation committee series, speaking of verse 24, 25:

The reference in the context of the Day of Atonement service of the earthly high priest is not to the outer compartment of the sanctuary. (227)

Richard Davidson, notes that vs. 25 is an unmistakable reference to the Day of Atonement:

I agree with Young that Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 refer to Day of Atonement, because of the clear references to “once a year” and “every year” respectively. ("Inauguration or Day of Atonement?" Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002)

Felix Cortez states in his article "From the Holy to the Most Holy Place: The Period of Hebrews 9:6-10 and the Day of Atonement as a Metaphor of Transition" in the Journal of Biblical Literature, 125.3, Fall 2006, 527 (footnote):javascript:void(null);

Unchallenged references to the Day of Atonement in the central section include 9:7, 25

Johnsson spells out the logic that prompts this identification:

high priest . . . yearly . . . blood [cf. 9:7])

There is only one offering that involves a yearly entry by the high priest with blood, and that is the Day of Atonement.

The inauguration involved entry through the whole sanctuary, and this was accomplished also by Jesus. However, that was not performed by the high priest in the type but by Moses. Nor was it repeated yearly. It was only done once.

The sin offering for a sin by the anointed priest involved entry into the holy place. However, this would not be yearly but only as needed, and in the new covenant Jesus is our High Priest and is without sin.

The sin offering for an unintentional sin by all the people in the camp of Israel at one time went into the holy place. However, this also was not yearly, and in some years may not happen at all. Moreover, it is unclear how all Christians through all time could commit a single act of sin together as they do not all live at the same time.

The only entry then that is yearly, by the high priest, with blood, is the Day of Atonement.

Bob has argued that the word does not mean yearly but throughout the year.

This does not answer what these other entries with blood would be, as noted above.

But more than that, the term is used with Kata distributively, which has the meaning of yearly, as the Adventist Scholars Johnsson and Davidson admit. And both refer to the parallels to 9:7 where the Day of Atonement is spelled out in the type, and the high priest enters once per year. The reference in 9:25 is also to the high priestly entry, but yearly, year after year, because it had to be repeated each year.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

Richard Davidson
I agree with Young that Hebrews 9:7 and 9:25 refer to Day of Atonement, because of the clear references to “once a year” and “every year” respectively. ("Inauguration or Day of Atonement?" Andrews University Seminary Studies, Spring 2002)

Here are Greek resources that note this distributive usage of kata:

The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the New Testament:

yearly--the distributive use of the preposition--"year after year.

Thayers:

http://library.mibckerala.org/lms_frame/eBook/Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon - Joseph Thayer.pdf


Dr. Robinson's Greek Lexicon to the New Testament:

Dr. Robinson's Greek lexicon to the New Testament condensed for schools and students. With a parsing index

 

[Daniel Marsh]

While Seventh-day Adventists hold a number of distinctive doctrines only one of the fundamental beliefs of Seventh-day Advenstists is unique to that denomination. This is the the teaching of the investigative judgment beginning in 1844. Here is the fundamental belief statement:

https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf

Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

This is an invitation to examine this doctrine, and see why Adventists believe it.

I would invite Adventists to explain, step-by-step, from the Bible how they reach the conclusions above, and especially how they get the date 1844 for Jesus entering the Most Holy Place from the 2,300 day prophecy.

The rest of us can then examine this and see if this unique Adventist teaching is biblical.

End of original post.
-----------
EDIT

In consultation with Bob I am including a link for those who are already familiar with the doctrine to jump right to the discussion of the details:

Per Bob's request I am placing links here to key arguments:

Tall73:

There is an investigative judgment of professed believers in God, but it is not in absentia as Adventists indicate, but is before the judgment seat of Christ, in person, at Jesus' coming.
Click Here

Adventists have changed the type regarding the work of the high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement, from application of blood to investigation of books.
Click Here

The sin offering does not transfer sin to the sanctuary as Adventists claim, but makes atonement in the holy place
Part 1
Click Here
Part 2
Click Here

Daniel 7 does not show an investigative judgment of individual professed believers
Click Here

Daniel 8 points to cleansing from the activity of the little horn, not the Day of Atonement cleansing.
Click Here

The claimed start of the 2,300 day prophecy in 457 BC is not supported
Click Here

Jesus already completed the activity which the high priest undertook in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement in the first century, long before 1844.
Click Here

Jesus completed all of the various blood ministrations for every sacrifice or appointed time in the law. He then ministers as High Priest on the basis of that completed blood ministration.
Click Here

Hebrews 9:25 references the day of Atonement.... high priest, yearly, with blood
Click Here

More to come....

BobRyan:

1. Differences and similarities regarding Heb 9 #103 #114 #107
2. Transfer of sin from sinner to sanctuary in Leviticus - #88 #48
3. Start point for the vision in the Dan 8 and Dan 9 vision - #84
4. Sin offerings "offered up in smoke" on the altar - #139 #90
5. Dan 7 shows investigative judgment (out of books) of individuals #147
6. Saints are not physically in heaven for this pre-advent judgment #4
7. The Day of Atonement is accepted even by Jews as "day of judgment" #54
8. "Cleansing" refers to cleansing from sin #88
"18 Then he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it; he shall take some of the blood from the bull and some of the blood from the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar on all sides. 19 With his finger he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it seven times and cleanse it, and consecrate it from the impurities of the sons of Israel."
9. Dan 8 cleansing of the sanctuary that restores/justifies/identifies the position of the saints (Judgment passed in favor of the saints) - vs- the second coming that ends the work of the Little Horn of Dan 7 and 8 - #34
10. First Christ offered the sin offering on the cross “bearing the sins of many” – then he sat down to do the work of High Priest in heaven. #86

Ok I am puzzled, why would Jesus as God need to investigate anything since he knows all?

 

[BobRyan]

Ok I am puzzled, why would Jesus as God need to investigate anything since he knows all?

See page one.
May 7, 2021 #3
May 7, 2021 #4

It (the Judgment of Dan 7 "out of books" ) is all done in Dan 7:9,10 for the sake of the myriads in vs 10 that are observing it. In that chapter the second coming cannot happen until that judgment ends.

It is not done for infinite God to figure anything out - but for finite beings in the courtroom

===================================
And in case your asking why I am commenting here - read this part of the OP

I would invite Adventists to explain, step-by-step, from the Bible how they reach the conclusions above, and especially how they get the date 1844 for Jesus entering the Most Holy Place from the 2,300 day prophecy.

The rest of us can then examine this and see if this unique Adventist teaching is biblical.

 

[tall73]

Inauguration is the focus for cleansing in Heb 9 see 9:18 (Not Day of Atonement). So we can't wedge Day of Atonement in as a past event in vs 18.

We agree Jesus inaugurated. However, verse 18 is referring to the covenant ratification, and it is verse 21 that mentions the inauguration of the sanctuary, as well as in chapter 10, Jesus inaugurated a new and living way.

However, inauguration is not the only cleansing in the chapter. And it cannot be only the inauguration referred to in 9.

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

a. Jesus entered once for all with blood. This means all the entries with blood were fulfilled, as there are no other entries.

b. The results of that entry with blood are eternal redemption, which did not result from just the inauguration.

c. It references Christ as High Priest entering by means of blood. The High Priest did not perform the inauguration. Moses did. And the high priest entering by means of blood, contrasted with that of a bull and goat, happened on the Day of Atonement.

And of course we see more details in 23-25 where the entry of Jesus is particularly compared to the high priest entry with blood yearly. That also is not the inauguration as the inauguration only happened once, and again was not performed by the high priest.

After mentioning the inauguration in verse 21 we see that blood rule that everything is purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Then is related the necessity of the heavenly things. And immediately after that for Christ Has entered.

"For" connects the entry in the past tense into God's presence on our behalf to the cleansing of the heavenly things.

Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

Jesus entered into God's presence, to appear on our behalf. That is parallel to the Day of Atonement, which the high priest would do such. This is the presentation of the completed sacrifice.

And this appearance is in heaven, not on earth at the cross. The thought about the entry and appearance is continued in Hebrews 9: 25.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own


I spelled out in the early post the elements of yearly, high priest, and with blood. That is the Day of Atonement, as nothing else meets that criteria. The evidence for the usage of kata distributively to indicate yearly was examined, etc.

The high priest would enter in once per year for the day of atonement. This is spelled out by the author of Hebrews for a reason, to show how Jesus fulfilled it. It shows the elements of high priest, once per year, with blood.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

However, the earthly high priest would have to continue to enter in yearly, every year, again and again, as the Day of Atonement would be repeated. It was once per year, but every year.

But Christ only had to enter in once into God's presence on our behalf to appear in God's presence for us:

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own


And He did not leave, but sat down, having presented the completed sacrifice. He had made purification for sins:

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

 

[tall73]

Hebrews 9
7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.

In 9:7 it is ambiguous as to whether the offering was on the alter or is later

It could have been in explicit form – as in


-- 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, taking blood, which he THEN offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
Or -- 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, taking blood, which he had just offered for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.

But in my examples it is explicit.

• Heb 7:26-27 - High priest - daily - offers up sacrifices - on the altar
  
• Heb 9:28 "bear the sins of many" - on the cross
  
• Heb 10:10 - offering of the body of Christ - on the cross
  
• Heb 9:25-26, "offer often" = "suffer often" - on the cross
  
• Lev 1:9 - offer up in smoke
  
• Ex 29:13 - offer up in smoke
  
• Ex 29:25 - offer up in smoke

“offered” on the altar.

Heb 9

25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens;

27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

Heb 10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Lev 1:9 Its entrails, however, and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall offer all of it up in smoke on the altar as a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the Lord.


Ex 29:13 And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, and the lobe of the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and offer them up in smoke on the altar.

Ex 29:25 Then you shall take them from their hands, and offer them up in smoke on the altar on the burnt offering for a soothing aroma before the Lord; it is an offering by fire to the Lord.

You are contending for "offer" to be used as a technical term. However, it is not in Scripture, or in Hebrews.

It means to present or bear, or offer, etc. Here are just a few of the uses:

Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mat 19:13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people,

Luk 23:36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine

Act 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

These are certainly not referring to the death of a sacrifice as a technical term.

The author of Hebrews has other uses clearly not indicating death:

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating/presenting you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.


The "offering" in this case is the presentation of the blood. It is compared to the entrance of the priest with blood, not the death.

Verse 25 continues the thought of verse 24 where Jesus enters (past tense) to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. This is the presentation of the completed sacrifice in the sanctuary, not just the death outside of the sanctuary.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

This entry was once for all. We saw that earlier in the chapter, all the entries were fulfilled in one:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

The result of the entry was eternal redemption. It was necessary to take the blood in, not just kill the animal.

This is anticipated by 9:7. Now you claim it is not clear that it is referring to the blood being brought in. But it is, because the context is the entry, which is not referring to the death.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The blood at entry is presented before God. This is in line with the uses of the word in Scripture and in Hebrews.

This was noted by Adventist scholar Felix Cortez in a footnote on page 25 of his dissertation The Anchor of the Soul that Enters 'Within the Veil': The Ascension of the 'Son' in the Letter to the Hebrews:

Interestingly, Hebrews departs from the language of the LXX to describe the manipulation of blood by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement: the blood is not “sprinkled” on the sanctuary but “offered” (9:7).


And the meaning in 9:25 is that Jesus did not have to repeatedly enter into God's presence as the high priest entered yearly with blood. The service was once per year, but had to be repeated every year. Jesus only did it once.

And this entry to present/offer Himself before God was completed once for all as there is only one entry, as we saw in 9:12. Once Jesus entered and presented Himself, that is it. That is the blood ministration. He doesn't bring back bottles of blood. He is alive and presents His sacrifice before the Father. That is the end of the blood ministration. That is why it says He made purification for sin and then sat down.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Unlike the earthly high priest who had to leave from God's presence Jesus stays. He reigns as High Priest and King.

He now ministers on the basis of the completed blood work. We come to Him in real time to confess and receive the benefits of that already finished death, entry and presentation before God on our behalf.

That presentation of blood is what is pictured in Leviticus. It does not show review of books, but cleansing blood presented for the sins of all true believers.

Now the argument then goes on to state that if Jesus had to enter in with blood often He would also have to suffer (death) often. But this is not the case.

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

His death, entry and presentation are once for all.

Here are a number of commentaries which look at the Greek and which discuss this presentation of Jesus in God's presence:

Commentary on the New Testament by D. D. Whedon

This offer is parallel to the entereth of the high priest; it, therefore does not here mean to sacrifice himself, but to present himself in heaven, as the high priest presented himself in the holy place. Yet in both cases a previous sacrifice takes place.


Vincet's Word Studies

Offer himself refers rather to Christ's entrance into the heavenly sanctuary and presentation of himself before God, than to his offering on the cross. . . The sacrifice on the cross is described by παθειν suffer, Heb 9:26, and is introduced as a distinct thought. The point is that, being once in the heavenly sanctuary, Christ was not compelled to renew often his presentation of himself there, since, in that case, it would be necessary for him to suffer often. Each separate offering would necessitate a corresponding suffering.


Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews by Franz Delitsch

V. 25 Nor yet (is he entered in) that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy of holies year by year with alien blood.

The comparison is between the offering of the Jewish high priest within the veil, and that of Christ in the eternal sanctuary: the προσφερειν εαυτον here spoken of cannot therefore be ...the self-sacrifice of Christ upon earth, but a self-presentation subsequent to that. The Jewish high priest goes year by year into the typical sanctuary, εν...αιματι αλλοτριω, i.e. to offer there the blood of a sacrifice which is not himself. Not so with Christ. He is gone into the heavenly sanctuary once for all, not to offer Himself first now, and then again some time hence, and again afterwards, and so on in perpetual succession.

On verse 26:

An of-repeated self-oblation (πολλακις προσφερειν εαυτον) would have been impossible without an oft-repeated suffering of death (πολλακισ παθειν).


The Greek Testament, on vs. 26, in reference to 25 and 26 and the argument therein:

This παθειν is here not equivalent to that προσφερειν, but is emphatically placed as a new necessity, involved in that; the πολλακις being common to both: the πολλακιςπροσφερειν necessitated the πολλακιςπαθειν. If Christ’s view in entering heaven was to offer, present, himself often to God, then, as a condition of that frequent presentation, there would be an antecedent necessity for Him to suffer often: because that self-presentation is in fact the bringing in before God of the Blood of that his suffering: and if the one was to be renewed, so must the other be likewise.

Jamieson Faussett Brown

Construe, "Nor yet did He enter for this purpose that He may offer Himself often," that is, "present Himself in the presence of God, as the high priest does (Paul uses the present tense, as the legal service was then existing), year by year, on the Day of Atonement, entering the Holy of Holies.

Beacon Bible Commentary

Extends the thought of the previous verse by affirming that this crucial self-presentation before the Father does not need to be repeated, as the high priest entereth into the [earthly] holy place every year with blood of others.

Jesus' offered Himself in God's presence, on our behalf, the completed sacrifice.

 

[tall73]

Tall 73 said:
The activity of the earthly high priest in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement was not a review of records, but an applications of blood for the sins of all the people. There was no investigation, but applying of the blood of the sacrifice. Those who did not afflict themselves were cut off, but this was not the activity of the high priest in the sanctuary. This happened outside the sanctuary as they rejected the ministration. This cutting off also occurred in connection to those who did not regard the Passover. In both cases the person was cutting themselves off from the benefit of the ministration.

1. The daily service already did that.
2. There is no individual confessing any specific sin on Lev 16 on Day of Atonement - but there is in the daily.

That is because they are pictures of two different aspects of Christ's work. The sin offering is a picture of confession by an individual of a single sin, showing the death of the animal and presentation of blood that provides forgiveness and atonement for the sinner, AND makes atonement in the holy place:

Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

Lev 6:30 But no sin offering shall be eaten from which any blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place; it shall be burned up with fire.

The day of Atonement cleansing is a picture of corporate forgiveness for the sins of all the people. The portion of that service that was done by the high priest, in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement is an application of blood to atone for the sins of the people, and cleanse the sanctuary.

Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
Lev 16:16 Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.

Adventists have changed the type. Instead of a provision of blood for all their sins, Adventists have posited that the high priest is reviewing individual cases from books. But as can be seen above, it was not books that were pictured, but an application of cleansing blood.

3. Even the Jews admit that the final disposition of all sins for the entire year is the scope of the Lev 16 "day of atonement".

The portion that happened in the sanctuary is what is specifically dealt with here. And that did deal with corporate cleansing, provision of blood. And Jesus did that.

Lev. 16 says nothing about books, etc.

The portion of the Day of Atonement that happens when Jesus leaves the sanctuary is yet to be fulfilled. But the presentation of Jesus' sacrifice before the Father already happened. Adventists just changed the whole understanding of the type from blood application to review of books and individual cases. That is not what the high priest did in the sanctuary.

4. the Judgment of all - is depicted in Dan 7 as the solution for the problem of persecution of the saints - and that same problem is brought up again in Dan 8 - - where the solution is called "cleansing of the sanctuary"

Both of those refer to judgment on nations/beast/powers and the little horn. Those chapters describe actions of those powers and their judgment. The saints are delivered as a group, but no statement is made of their individual judgment in that chapter. And as highlighted in a number of posts there are plain texts that speak of the professed people of God being judged at Jesus' coming, when standing in person before His judgment seat.

Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 do not show a cleansing application of blood by the high priest for the sins of all the people, which is what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. Adventists changed the type by inserting books which are not pictured in Leviticus 16 at all.

5. the symbols and types did not have every single detail - for example the lamb slain has no Romans, has no cross, has no trial/judgment by Rome or anyone else, has no resurrection.
6. There is no example of anyone "failing" in the Day of Atonement for failure to humble themselves - yet we know that not all Christians are saved. It is the "FEW" of Matt 7 that are saved and the "MANY" of Matt 7 that are lost.

Actually, some did fail:

Lev 23:26 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 23:27 “Now on the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. It shall be for you a time of holy convocation, and you shall afflict yourselves and present a food offering to the LORD.
Lev 23:28 And you shall not do any work on that very day, for it is a Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.
Lev 23:29 For whoever is not afflicted on that very day shall be cut off from his people.
Lev 23:30 And whoever does any work on that very day, that person I will destroy from among his people.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.”

There are those who were cut off for not afflicting themselves or regarding the Day of Atonement, just as anyone who does not avail themselves of Christ's work will not be saved. But this shows the point. What happened in the sanctuary was a cleansing application of blood by the high priest. That is what Jesus did. And anyone who doesn't accept it is condemned because they have not accepted God's Son:

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

As to Matthew 7 it is not a reference to the Adventist IJ. It happens before Christ at His coming, as do the other texts that spell out the actual judgment on believers who give an account, confess, receive their reward, etc.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

On that day some will object, and He will answer, and then send them into judgment. This is at His coming. In the proposed Adventist IJ you don't even know your name comes up, let alone dialogue, etc.

Other texts spell out this judgment before Christ at His coming:

1Co 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.


Mat 25:14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here, I have made five talents more.’
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
Mat 25:27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
Mat 25:28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

They appear before Him, He judges them, and some protest, but He presents the evidence against them. Then they receive their reward.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

We bow
We confess
We give an account.

This is not the Adventist IJ where we don't even know when our name comes up. This is appearing before Christ in person for judgment.

Types can only be stretched so far to illustrate the point. They do not address "every detail"

The type does show the detail of cleansing application of blood which is what Jesus did. It doesn't say anything about books, etc. because that is not pictured in the type.

Day of Atonement - Lev 16 - is also day of Judgment

Judgment Day
Yom Kippur comes just ten days after Rosh Hashanah. Ten days prior to Yom Kippur, the Torah commands us to blow the shofar on Rosh Hashanah. One of the reasons for blowing the shofar is as a warning that a period of judgment has begun. According to Jewish tradition, the Gates of heaven swing open on Rosh Hashanah. The Heavenly Court is convened on Rosh Hashanah. The Books of Judgement opened on Rosh Hashanah. The heavenly ledgers are scrutinized on Rosh Hashanah.

Yom Kippur High Holiday Festival - Kehilat Sar Shalom.
So not only does the Dan 7 to Dan 8 comparison above point to "cleansing" on the Day of Atonement as including the work of Judgment - but the Day of Atonement itself points to it.

Bob, you are quoting Jewish tradition instead of Scripture?

There is judgment on those who do not receive the cleansing application of blood. They are cut off.

But all the rest of that is not stated in Leviticus 16 in regards to what the high priest did in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

What He did was apply cleansing blood for the sins of all the people. Jesus did that.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Hebrews 9
7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.

In 9:7 it is ambiguous as to whether the offering was on the alter or is later

It could have been in explicit form – as in


-- 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, taking blood, which he THEN offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
Or -- 7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, taking blood, which he had just offered for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.

But in my examples it is explicit.

• Heb 7:26-27 - High priest - daily - offers up sacrifices - on the altar
  
• Heb 9:28 "bear the sins of many" - on the cross
  
• Heb 10:10 - offering of the body of Christ - on the cross
  
• Heb 9:25-26, "offer often" = "suffer often" - on the cross
  
• Lev 1:9 - offer up in smoke
  
• Ex 29:13 - offer up in smoke
  
• Ex 29:25 - offer up in smoke

“offered” on the altar.

Heb 9

25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens;

27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself.

Heb 10
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Lev 1:9 Its entrails, however, and its legs he shall wash with water. And the priest shall offer all of it up in smoke on the altar as a burnt offering, an offering by fire as a soothing aroma to the Lord.


Ex 29:13 And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, and the lobe of the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and offer them up in smoke on the altar.

Ex 29:25 Then you shall take them from their hands, and offer them up in smoke on the altar on the burnt offering for a soothing aroma before the Lord; it is an offering by fire to the Lord.

You are contending for "offer" to be used as a technical term.

I show in the above examples that the sin offering is offered (offered up in smoke) on the altar of sacrifice, not in the Most Holy Place or the Holy Place.

• Lev 1:9 - offer up in smoke
  
• Ex 29:13 - offer up in smoke
  
• Ex 29:25 - offer up in smoke

Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

I see that as irrefutable given the actual quotes you are not responding to - above.

Instead you quote a lot of this sort of thing --

Luk 23:36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine


I don't see how that is even remotely compelling given the context of the texts in my quote above and the point I am making.

 

[tall73]

I show in the above examples that the sin offering is offered (offered up in smoke) on the altar of sacrifice, not in the Most Holy Place or the Holy Place.

• Lev 1:9 - offer up in smoke
  
• Ex 29:13 - offer up in smoke
  
• Ex 29:25 - offer up in smoke

Heb 7:27 (Christ) does not need DAILY LIKE the High Priest to OFFER UP sacrifices)

I see that as irrefutable given the actual quotes you are not responding to - above.

I responded by discussing first the usage, to determine if it is a technical term which is only used one way. It is not.

And then I looked at the context of 9:25 itself, since that is what is under dispute.

You reference:

Lev 1:9 - offer up in smoke
Ex 29:13 - offer up in smoke
Ex 29:25 - offer up in smoke“offered” on the altar.

The burnt offering, and the offerings of the anointing of the priest referenced here were offered at the altar. But that does not determine the usage in 9:25, which is its own passage, with its own context. Nor is it the same word in the LXX in these passages, so that doesn't speak to usage.

Instead you quote a lot of this sort of thing --

Luk 23:36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine

I don't see how that is even remotely compelling given the context of the texts in my quote above and the point I am making.

It shows the meaning of the word includes presenting, offering, etc.

I was showing that the term is not used as a technical term to mean only the sacrificial death. In both Hebrews and outside of Hebrews it is not used only for offering the animal on the altar.

So for instance, in these two cases the word is used by the same author, but clearly not referring to a sacrificial death.

Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating/presenting you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

Therefore, just showing examples where it does mean sacrificial death based on the context does not indicate it automatically means sacrificial death in 9:25. You have to show that from the context.

And I did look at the context in 9:25 in that post. Here again is the information on the context of 9:25.

--------------------

The "offering" in this case is the presentation of the blood. It is compared to the entrance of the priest with blood, not the death.

Verse 25 continues the thought of verse 24 where Jesus enters (past tense) to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. This is the presentation of the completed sacrifice in the sanctuary, not just the death outside of the sanctuary.

Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,

This entry was once for all. We saw that earlier in the chapter, all the entries were fulfilled in one:

Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

The result of the entry was eternal redemption. It was necessary to take the blood in, not just kill the animal.

This is anticipated by 9:7. Now you claim it is not clear that it is referring to the blood being brought in. But it is, because the context is the entry, which is not referring to the death.

Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

The blood at entry is presented before God.

This was noted by Adventist scholar Felix Cortez in a footnote on page 25 of his dissertation The Anchor of the Soul that Enters 'Within the Veil': The Ascension of the 'Son' in the Letter to the Hebrews:

Interestingly, Hebrews departs from the language of the LXX to describe the manipulation of blood by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement: the blood is not “sprinkled” on the sanctuary but “offered” (9:7).


And the meaning in 9:25 is that Jesus did not have to repeatedly enter into God's presence as the high priest entered yearly with blood. The service was once per year, but had to be repeated every year. Jesus only did it once.

And this entry to present/offer Himself before God was completed once for all as there is only one entry, as we saw in 9:12. Once Jesus entered and presented Himself, that is it. That is the blood ministration. He doesn't bring back bottles of blood. He is alive and presents His sacrifice before the Father. That is the end of the blood ministration. That is why it says He made purification for sin and then sat down.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

Unlike the earthly high priest who had to leave from God's presence Jesus stays. He reigns as High Priest and King.

He now ministers on the basis of the completed blood work. We come to Him in real time to confess and receive the benefits of that already finished death, entry and presentation before God on our behalf.

That presentation of blood is what is pictured in Leviticus. It does not show review of books, but cleansing blood presented for the sins of all true believers.

Now the argument then goes on to state that if Jesus had to enter in with blood often He would also have to suffer (death) often. But this is not the case.

Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

His death, entry and presentation are once for all.

Here are a number of commentaries which look at the Greek and which discuss this presentation of Jesus in God's presence:

Commentary on the New Testament by D. D. Whedon

This offer is parallel to the entereth of the high priest; it, therefore does not here mean to sacrifice himself, but to present himself in heaven, as the high priest presented himself in the holy place. Yet in both cases a previous sacrifice takes place.


Vincet's Word Studies

Offer himself refers rather to Christ's entrance into the heavenly sanctuary and presentation of himself before God, than to his offering on the cross. . . The sacrifice on the cross is described by παθειν suffer, Heb 9:26, and is introduced as a distinct thought. The point is that, being once in the heavenly sanctuary, Christ was not compelled to renew often his presentation of himself there, since, in that case, it would be necessary for him to suffer often. Each separate offering would necessitate a corresponding suffering.


Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews by Franz Delitsch

V. 25 Nor yet (is he entered in) that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy of holies year by year with alien blood.

The comparison is between the offering of the Jewish high priest within the veil, and that of Christ in the eternal sanctuary: the προσφερειν εαυτον here spoken of cannot therefore be ...the self-sacrifice of Christ upon earth, but a self-presentation subsequent to that. The Jewish high priest goes year by year into the typical sanctuary, εν...αιματι αλλοτριω, i.e. to offer there the blood of a sacrifice which is not himself. Not so with Christ. He is gone into the heavenly sanctuary once for all, not to offer Himself first now, and then again some time hence, and again afterwards, and so on in perpetual succession.

On verse 26:

An of-repeated self-oblation (πολλακις προσφερειν εαυτον) would have been impossible without an oft-repeated suffering of death (πολλακισ παθειν).


The Greek Testament, on vs. 26, in reference to 25 and 26 and the argument therein:

This παθειν is here not equivalent to that προσφερειν, but is emphatically placed as a new necessity, involved in that; the πολλακις being common to both: the πολλακιςπροσφερειν necessitated the πολλακιςπαθειν. If Christ’s view in entering heaven was to offer, present, himself often to God, then, as a condition of that frequent presentation, there would be an antecedent necessity for Him to suffer often: because that self-presentation is in fact the bringing in before God of the Blood of that his suffering: and if the one was to be renewed, so must the other be likewise.

Jamieson Faussett Brown

Construe, "Nor yet did He enter for this purpose that He may offer Himself often," that is, "present Himself in the presence of God, as the high priest does (Paul uses the present tense, as the legal service was then existing), year by year, on the Day of Atonement, entering the Holy of Holies.


Jesus' offered Himself in God's presence, on our behalf, the completed sacrifice.