Adventist end time beliefs?

klutedavid

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Magnifying God's Commandments beyond the level of civil laws in Israel is not destroying the Commandments of God -- it is magnifying them.

(God's Commandments where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:1-2 -- are most certainly included)



You have free will.
No I don't, my flesh is a slave to my passions and desires. My free will is always distorted by the struggle between my flesh and the spirit. So that I don't do what I want to do.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.
 
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BobRyan

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I posted this

If Jesus lives in your heart, there's far more knowledge of sin than the TCs could ever provide. Don't steal = do nothing according to the TCs. According to Jesus, you are stealing if you don't give to someone who is your equal.

Magnifying God's Commandments beyond the level of civil laws in Israel is not destroying the Commandments of God -- it is magnifying them.

(God's Commandments where the 5th commandment "is the first commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:1-2 -- are most certainly included)

Wrong set of commandments.
.

You have free will.

and you posted this

No I don't, my flesh is a slave to my passions and desires. My free will is always distorted by the struggle between my flesh and the spirit. So that I don't do what I want to do.

Sorry to hear that.
 
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Tim Ray

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"Daniel's dream describes a little horn that arises from among the ten horns of the fourth terrible beast. The little horn power represents the Antichrist and is described in Daniel's dream with great detail so that we can clearly identify who this end-time enemy will be. Since we don't want to make any mistake, it is essential that we correctly identify this power.

I do not believe it is correct to say that the little horn of Dan. 7, is the "Antichrist". I do believe the little horn is the papacy, and some of it's teachings are "antichrist" with a small "a", but many other religions promote teachings also that
are not scriptural, therefore antichrist. I don't believe you, nor corporate Adventism as a whole understand that the coming "Antichrist" will be far more sinister than the Catholic church. Prophecy clearly reveals it's idenity, if understood correctly.

What's more import to you, what the church teaches or Bible prophecy?

Would you like to converse on this subject?

If so, please give me the chapter and verse of the following:
11. It shall devour the whole earth.
12. It shall reign until the Ancient of Days comes.
13. Its dominion will be taken away.

Hope to hear from you soon.
 
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Tim Ray

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Then in Daniel 7 it will expand on that sequence giving even more details regarding the 1260 years of dark ages and also the great judgment in heaven that will take place while saints on earth are being persecuted - just before the 2nd coming.

Then in Daniel 8 even more detail as it zeroes in on the judgment solution which when completed will stop all the persecution of the saints
 
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BobRyan

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I do not believe it is correct to say that the little horn of Dan. 7, is the "Antichrist". I do believe the little horn is the papacy, and some of it's teachings are "antichrist" with a small "a", but many other religions promote teachings also that
are not scriptural, therefore antichrist.

Certainly as 1 John 2 points out there are many antichrists. But none of them fit that 1260 year dark ages scenario except 1. Daniel 7 is specific to that particular one.

I don't believe you, nor corporate Adventism as a whole understand that the coming "Antichrist" will be far more sinister than the Catholic church.

On the contrary - we claim that the ultimate one coming as antichrist is Satan himself according to 2 Thess 2.
 
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BobRyan

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If so, please give me the chapter and verse of the following:
11. It shall devour the whole earth.
12. It shall reign until the Ancient of Days comes.
13. Its dominion will be taken away.

Hope to hear from you soon.

11. It shall devour the whole earth.

Context is everything - Dan 7:23 talks about the 4th kingdom not the little horn not the antichrist.

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.

It is pagan Rome not the papacy.


Compare this to Babylon in Daniel 2

36 “This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; 38 and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.

Daniel 4 Babylon

10 ‘Now these were the visions in my mind as I lay on my bed: I was looking, and behold, there was a tree in the midst of the earth and its height was great.
11 ‘The tree grew large and became strong
And its height reached to the sky,
And it was visible to the end of the whole earth.
12 ‘Its foliage was beautiful and its fruit abundant,
And in it was food for all.
The beasts of the field found shade under it,
And the birds of the sky dwelt in its branches,
And all living creatures fed themselves from it.

20 The tree that you saw, which became large and grew strong, whose height reached to the sky and was visible to all the earth 21 and whose foliage was beautiful and its fruit abundant, and in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt and in whose branches the birds of the sky lodged— 22 it is you, O king; for you have become great and grown strong, and your majesty has become great and reached to the sky and your dominion to the end of the earth.

===================

given that as "context" -- Rome was even greater because it expanded out into far more territory than Babylon.
 
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BobRyan

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If so, please give me the chapter and verse of the following:

12. It shall reign until the Ancient of Days comes.
13. Its dominion will be taken away.

Hope to hear from you soon.

The ancient of days comes in Daniel 7 at the end of the 1260 years of dark ages (time times and half a time) - vs 9-10 says the court sits and judgment takes place.

In Dan 7 the beast (the 4th beast - pagan Rome) does bad things and the 11th horn - the little horn - also does bad stuff. which is an extension of pagan Rome according to Daniel 7.

Vs 22 says that saints are persecuted during that entire time "until judgement is passed in favor of the saints" --

The chapter of Daniel 7 ends with the 2nd coming which means that judgment takes place after the dark ages and before the 2nd coming.

Rev 14:7 says judgment in heaven takes place while humans are on earth hearing the gospel of vs 6.
 
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BobRyan

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Dan 7

fourth kingdom - pagan Rome
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.

Little horn - 11th horn - arises out of pagan Rome - persecutes the saints. Changes times and law
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

the judgment in heaven takes away the power of the little horn
26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

the second coming
27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’
 
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Tim Ray

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Bob. You state in this quote that the judgement in Dan.7, takes place "just before Jesus comes". However, I don't believe that's what prophecy reveals. Look at Dan.7:21 and 22. Here the angel is interpreting the vision for Daniel.

(NIV) 21) " as I kept looking, the horn was making war with the saints and overpowering them 22) until the Ancient of Days came and judgement was passed in favor of the saints..."

Question. What does the word "until" imply?

Then read vss. 23-26, paying attention to vss. 25,26) "...and they[saints] will be given into his [Little horn/papacy's] hand, for a time, times, and a half a time, 26) but the court will sit in judgement and his [little horn] dominion will be taken away...".

Of course we know from history that the "little horn lost it's power in 1798. Therefore, if we will allow this prophecy to speak to us, it seems that this judgement was seated in 1798, and the Ancient of Days ordained that the Little Horn's dominion be terminated.

Other prophecies support this as well, should you be interested.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob. You state in this quote that the judgement in Dan.7, takes place "just before Jesus comes". However, I don't believe that's what prophecy reveals. Look at Dan.7:21 and 22. Here the angel is interpreting the vision for Daniel.

(NIV) 21) " as I kept looking, the horn was making war with the saints and overpowering them 22) until the Ancient of Days came and judgement was passed in favor of the saints..."

Question. What does the word "until" imply?

Until He came AND judgment was passed in favor of the saints.

So then we have persecution of the saints for 1260 years.

Then the judgment begins when the Ancient of days comes AND ends with judgment passed in favor of the saints.

The point of "the judgment takes place BEFORE the 2nd coming" is that at the end of the chapter we have the 2nd coming.

The Ancient of days in vs 9-10 is not coming to Earth --- He is coming to the court room.


This is where the Ancient of Days comes to the court room
Dan 7
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire
.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

once the court room is setup

The Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days - in that court room to receive a kingdom.

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

He receives a kingdom from the courtroom work where the Ancient of Days is presiding.

14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.


That kingdom is not realized until the 2nd coming when all the Earth is handed over to Christ to whom that kingdom belongs according to the courtroom event.





Then read vss. 23-26, paying attention to vss. 25,26) "...and they[saints] will be given into his [Little horn/papacy's] hand, for a time, times, and a half a time, 26) but the court will sit in judgement and his [little horn] dominion will be taken away...".

So the little horn has power over the saints until the court sits and passes judgment in favor of the saints.

Of course we know from history that the "little horn lost it's power in 1798. Therefore, if we will allow this prophecy to speak to us, it seems that this judgement was seated in 1798, and the Ancient of Days ordained that the Little Horn's dominion be terminated.

Other prophecies support this as well, should you be interested.

The only timeline in Dan 7 is the 1260 days of the dark ages.

The court sits in judgment AND that judgment removes the dominion of the little horn - however to this very day - the papacy exists and is the most powerful single Christian denomination on planet earth. So not "terminated" - not even yet.
 
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Tim Ray

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On the contrary - we claim that the ultimate one coming as antichrist is Satan himself according to 2 Thess 2.

Yes, I believe 2 Thess.2, is referring to Satan. Do you understand that Satan will be here on earth in visible form?

Do you know what prophecies in Daniel and Revelation support this claim?
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, I believe 2 Thess.2, is referring to Satan. Do you understand that Satan will be here on earth in visible form?

Yes - he will appear as a being of light - as the 2nd coming of Christ ultimately at the very end.

Do you know what prophecies in Daniel and Revelation support this claim?

2 Thess 2 supports it.

2 Thess 2
8..., displaying himself as being God9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

And of course Ellen White gives a description of seeing Satan come in the sky with shining angels - as if he is Christ - and this is the second coming.
 
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Tim Ray

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Until He came AND judgment was passed in favor of the saints.

So then we have persecution of the saints for 1260 years.

Then the judgment begins when the Ancient of days comes AND ends with judgment passed in favor of the saints.

The point of "the judgment takes place BEFORE the 2nd coming" is that at the end of the chapter we have the 2nd coming.

The Ancient of days in vs 9-10 is not coming to Earth --- He is coming to the court room.


This is where the Ancient of Days comes to the court room
Dan 7
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire
.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

once the court room is setup

The Son of Man comes to the Ancient of Days - in that court room to receive a kingdom.

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

He receives a kingdom from the courtroom work where the Ancient of Days is presiding.

14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.


That kingdom is not realized until the 2nd coming when all the Earth is handed over to Christ to whom that kingdom belongs according to the courtroom event.





Then read vss. 23-26, paying attention to vss. 25,26) "...and they[saints] will be given into his [Little horn/papacy's] hand, for a time, times, and a half a time, 26) but the court will sit in judgement and his [little horn] dominion will be taken away...".

So the little horn has power over the saints until the court sits and passes judgment in favor of the saints.



The only timeline in Dan 7 is the 1260 days of the dark ages.

The court sits in judgment AND that judgment removes the dominion of the little horn - however to this very day - the papacy exists and is the most powerful single Christian denomination on planet earth. So not "terminated" - not even yet.
 
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Tim Ray

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Bob, the time line of Dan. 7 begins in 605BC, the first yr. of Belshazzar vs.1, and ends at Christ second coming. Consider how apocalyptic prophecy differs from other prophecies.

Apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point and ending point in time, and each event, is given in chronological order.

Therefore, when each event within apocalyptic prophecy reaches a fulfillment it gets time stamped. In the very same way you life is a time line. You had a BD, a high school graduation, and a wedding day and each of those events is time stamped the day the event took place. If you are willing to grasp
that each apocalyptic prophecy is a time line, and some having elements of time as well, then apocalyptic prophecy gets very interesting and exciting as you see us moving closer to the return of Christ.

You state: "The court sits in judgment AND that judgment removes the dominion of the little horn - however to this very day - the papacy exists and is the most powerful single Christian denomination on planet earth. So not "terminated" - not even yet."

So you do agree that the Court mentioned in Dan. 7 was seated in 1798?

However, you believe that the papacy's dominion was not taken away at that time, contrary to what Dan.7:26 says, is that correct?

I believe you are misunderstanding what exactly was taken away from the horn power in 1798. Prior to 1798, the papacy had more power than kings. He was Lord of Lords, and king of kings, for 1260 years. Kings bowed down before Him. As you well know the papacy put to death, it's estimated, over sixty million individuals during it's reign. It was it's loss of dominion over state/civil governing in 1798 that brought and end to the saints persecution. Yes, the papacy continued and still exist today, but not with the power it had prior to 1798.

However, it is my understanding that one of the seven heads of the first beast of Rev.13, the one having a fatal wound, but the wound is healed when this beast comes up out of the sea, is a symbol of the papacy.

What is your understanding of these seven heads and specificlly the one having the deadly wound that is healed?

So the only way we know the Judgement commencement of Dan.7, tacking place in 1798 is that God linked it to the end of the 1260 years of the Little Horn/papacy, when it received the deadly wound and it's dominion over civil governing taken away.

Keep in mind that God does nothing before, He first reveals it to His servants the prophets.
 
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mmksparbud

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Rev_13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev_13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
 
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Tim Ray

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Rev_13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev_13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

mmk, if you are responding to me, I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point in quoting these texts. Please explain.
 
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Tim Ray

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Yes - he will appear as a being of light - as the 2nd coming of Christ ultimately at the very end.



2 Thess 2 supports it.

2 Thess 2
8..., displaying himself as being God9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

And of course Ellen White gives a description of seeing Satan come in the sky with shining angels - as if he is Christ - and this is the second coming.

Bob, I appreciate your response as always, and have a few questions.

Based on what you believe, why would God send satan to appear in person on earth at the very end of the seven bowl judgements, just before Christ returns?

I know E.W. has mentioned that satan will appear on the earth in visible form during the tribulation.
I think in her latter years she mentioned that the second beast of Rev.13, which rises from the earth is Satan. I used to have that quote, but can't locate it. Are you aware of it?

But nonetheless, we both agree that satan is "The Anti-christ" much more sinister than the papacy. Yet SDA's cannot point to any apocalyptic prophecies, whereby God has revealed any of Satan's activities during the time of the end, even through 2 Thess. 2, tells us God will send the man of Lawlessness/Satan to the earth because people refuse to except the love of the truth/gospel and be saved.

Have you ever given this consideration?
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, I appreciate your response as always, and have a few questions.

Based on what you believe, why would God send satan to appear in person on earth at the very end of the seven bowl judgements, just before Christ returns?

God never sends Satan anywhere other than hell.

2 Cor 4:4 calls Satan "the god of this world" - his plan is to deceive right up to the very end.
In Genesis 6 we are told "My Spirit will not always strive with mankind" - and so at the time of the flood -- God's Spirit was withdrawn - mankind was given over to do wickedly ... and perished in the world wide flood.

Even so at the end of time - the Spirit of God is withdrawn and mankind having chosen Satan as the leader is given over to deception as 2Thess 2 points out.

Rev 15:8 says the Sanctuary in heaven shuts down at that point and the Rev 16 seven last plagues are poured out.
 
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BobRyan

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I know E.W. has mentioned that satan will appear on the earth in visible form during the tribulation.
I think in her latter years she mentioned that the second beast of Rev.13, which rises from the earth is Satan. I used to have that quote, but can't locate it. Are you aware of it?

I don't know of anywhere in her writings where she refers to the 2nd beast of Rev 13 -- as Satan.

But nonetheless, we both agree that satan is "The Anti-christ" much more sinister than the papacy. Yet SDA's cannot point to any apocalyptic prophecies, whereby God has revealed any of Satan's activities during the time of the end,

Other than Rev 13 and 2 Thess 2 and Rev 18 and Rev 12 and Rev 16 Armageddon and Rev 19?

even through 2 Thess. 2, tells us God will send the man of Lawlessness/Satan to the earth

2 Thess 2 does not say that God sends Satan. He sends strong delusions - which come in many forms because in the Bible God's action of not restraining evil is often referred to as God sending it.

Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"
 
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2 Thess. 2, tells us God will send the man of Lawlessness/Satan to the earth because people refuse to except the love of the truth/gospel and be saved.

Have you ever given this consideration?

It does not say "Sends Satan to Earth" or "sends the man of lawlessness to Earth" in 2 Thess 2.

Satan is already "prince of the power of the air" Eph 2:1-6, and "god of this world" 2 Cor 4:4 and gathers the world leaders to the battle of Armageddon Rev 16 - before the second coming event so then we see them all gathered in Rev 19 at the second coming.
 
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