Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

tall73 · Feb 16, 2007

Adventtruth said:
Ok Jim...go ask TALL73 if the church teaches this. He is a Adventist Minister aswell.

AT

I must admit that Adventists have taught this.

tall73 · Feb 16, 2007

Here is my take on the seal, and mark:

Understanding the underlying Old Testament Allusions within the book of Revelation is a key to understanding the passages' meaning. The allusions for the seal is helpful.

The mark always has its opposite, the seal of God. They key texts are Revelation 13 , Revelation 7, and 14. In each of these we learn something about the seal of God or the mark of the beast.

In the particular case of the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast one of the key allusions is to the vision of Ezekiel in chapters 8 and 9. Here we see an account of the false worship of the Israelites, practiced by the leaders, in the temple itself. God pronounces judgement on them, and in the vision that Ezekiel sees this judgement is immediate. It foreshadows the actual judgement brought about during the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon.

Here is the key part of the passage as it regards the Seal of God.

EZE 8:17 He said to me, "Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a trivial matter for the house of Judah to do the detestable things they are doing here? Must they also fill the land with violence and continually provoke me to anger? Look at them putting the branch to their nose! 18 Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them."

EZE 9:1 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." 2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.

EZE 9:3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."

EZE 9:5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
As you notice the imagery of a mark in the forehead of those who are faithful to God was already seen here. And it is clear from the vision and subsequent fulfillment of the vison that

a. the mark is not a literal mark
b. The mark is a sign of loyalty to God, and grieving over apostasy and false worship.

It is not literal in the story as the true slaughter happened under the babylonians. The leaders had the opportunity to show their faith by surrendering themselves to Babylon as the prophets said, and they would not be harmed.

In revelation we likewise see God placing a sign of loyalty on those who are faithful to Him amid widespread apostasy. The remnant concept was well firmly anchored in the OT where God had a group that were faithful to Him.

Compare the above vision with this of John's in Revelation 7. Again we see the idea that those who are spared are those who receive the Seal of God.

Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
The mark of the beast is likewise the sign of loyalty to false worship. In fact we see in Revelation a false trinity (dragon, beast, false prophet), a false lamb (lamb-like beast), a false worship and a false seal, which is the Mark of the Beast.

The seal is being completely loyal to God in all things grieving and lamenting over all of the detestable things done in the land.

In fact, the Bible pretty much says that God's Spirit is the seal. The Holy Spirit sealed us for the day of redemption. It is a down payment guaranteeing what is to come, according to Ephesians.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

In all of the texts about the sealing the key issue was that the people were COMPLETELY dedicated to God. Just as in OT times, loyalty to God will be something that can be seen. And disloyalty to God will likewise be something obvious. What that is at this time we don't know.

The sealing is is being filled with God's Spirit, wanting what He wants and loving what He loves. Or as Revelation puts it, "following the Lamb wherever He goes."

freeindeed2 · Feb 16, 2007

OntheDL said:
I know Jesus died for all of us. I want to be gracious. But the sad truth is that you never understood adventism and you were never a 7th-day Adventist. Don't be offended by that statement. Denominations don't get anyone to heaven. Our relationship with Jesus does. Our relationship with Him or what we do depends on what our believes are.

Incredible! I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything about SDAism. I don't know anyone who does. But I think I have a fairly good grasp.

Born into a conservative SDA home
4th generation
Grandfather personally heard and met EGW
Grandparents worked as colporters for 2 decades (that's how I have many EGW original renditions
Went to SDA schools K-University (7 years of college)
Began working for the church over 20 years ago
Pastored for over 10 years
Taught religion classes for 8 years using SDA curriculum
Was part of the curriculum committee
Conducted SDA prophecy seminars both locally and abroad
Made many calls and baptized many people
I loved the Sabbath
I loved the writings of EGW (and have read her extensively)
I loved the Doctrines of the SDA church and I defended them more vehemently than I'm able to defend the true Gospel now
I loved being part of the 'remnant' church (we were 'special')
More than I can even begin to tell after 35 years of being an SDA
I know what goes on behind the scenes. I know the discussions among many SDA pastors and teachers. I know that there are many (pastors, employees, etc.) who do not believe at least several of the fundamental doctrines (mainly, EGW/prophetess, EGW writings an authoritative source for truth, Investigative Judgment, gospel of health, Sabbath a salvational test, SDA remnant church, that God must be vindicated). In addition those who know the real history of SDAism, there are glaring blatant errors at the very foundation of SDAism.
I even know of a current conference president and a chief editor of a prominent SDA publication who have stated off the record that they do not believe many of the beliefs I listed above.

I'm in no way offended by your statement. In fact I'm humored by it, because you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I've been around the block. I'm a veteran SDA with many SDA battle wounds (you don't work for the SDA church for too long without getting wounded), and I'm a rookie Christian (there's a difference).

You may not like what I've presented, and maybe I haven't done a very good job (still working on that). But there are major issues with the SDA church and several of the beliefs they hold dear. The larger Christian community does not accept the conclusions SDA's arrive at, nor the methods they use (proof-texting). Neither do they accept EGW as a prophet of God as she does not fit the bill. And until the church addresses their issues they will not be accepted as being orthodox in their beliefs. They are considered aberrant, unorthodox, or heterodox. (Which most SDA's don't care about since they believe that they have the 'TRUTH'.)

OntheDL said:
I don't know whatelse to tell you except this: if our life is right with God, if we are obedient to His will, He will show us the truth.

I completely disagree. You have just stated that if we clean up our act and try to obey then we will be shown the truth. No way!

Jesus is the Truth, and the Holy Spirit has promised to guide us into all truth. When we see Jesus/Truth we are made right with God through faith (just like Abraham was counted as righteous because of his faith). And with the Holy Spirit living in us we are guaranteed to be obedient to His will. But we are shown the truth/Jesus first.

God bless!

freeindeed2 · Feb 16, 2007

OntheDL said:
I challenge you to find one sentense from the 27 foundamental believes or EGW writings that says we can keep the law by our own power or we are saved by keep the law.

However keeping the law is the proof that we are converted.

How do you reconscile with this verse?

1 John 3
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Be careful how you use Scripture! If you're claiming that you're converted and that keeping the law (10 commandments) is the proof of that you are in big trouble!

These passages say that those who are with God DO NOT SIN.

So the BIG question is, by your own definitions, HAVE YOU STOPPED SINNING? Do you ever break the 10 commanments?

If you do then you must not be converted.

Be careful how you use Scripture. Legalists and law-mongerers are condemned by their use of these passages (because they are NOT keeping what they claim it's talking about).

(BTW, I never said there was a sentence in the 27(8) fundies that said you keep the law by your own power. Most who lift up the law instead of Christ believe they are in a semi-mutual cooperative effort where they are enabled to keep the law (only defined by the 10 commandments) with the help of the Holy Spirit.)

Jon0388g · Feb 16, 2007

tall73 said:
In all of the texts about the sealing the key issue was that the people were COMPLETELY dedicated to God. Just as in OT times, loyalty to God will be something that can be seen. And disloyalty to God will likewise be something obvious. What that is at this time we don't know.

The sealing is is being filled with God's Spirit, wanting what He wants and loving what He loves. Or as Revelation puts it, "following the Lamb wherever He goes."

On the whole, I agree with you.

What better way of proving your loyalty to God than by keeping His commandments?

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3

How is this in conflict with the fact that the Sabbath day will be the final test of loyalty to God, as EGW teaches?

Jon

Jon0388g · Feb 16, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
I'll get to this tomorrow. I'm out of time tonight. Basically you have just claimed, at the very least in part, to be your own savior.

Now who's making my text say what you want it to say?

Typically, when SDA's post, their posts are rich with lifting up the law or their own abilities to keep it (or their precious 'free-will', or their own role in salvation, or their cooperation, etc.), but strangely lacking when it comes to lifting up Jesus. And no matter how strongly I say that Jesus is our salvation and that HE accomplished for us what we COULD NOT accomplish on our own, the conversation turns back to what 'we' can do.

Not ALL SDA's do this, but most do that I have posted with. It's all about them, or it's all about the law. Very rarely do I find an SDA that lifts Jesus up and says, "Look at HIM! He's the Savior of the world! He has accomplished your salvation for you! He is Worthy and Faithful to keep HIS promises!" I don't get it. Scriptures all pointed to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, and now that he has come and the Good News is a reality in Christ alone, all some can talk about is themselves and the law that Christ came to redeem us from. Some run to WHAT condems rather that running to WHO gives life. Others try to co-exist in an adulterous relationship with Christ and the law. We died to one in order to be joined to another! If you're so bent on your ability to make great choices, why not just 'choose' Christ? (even though he has chosen you!) Why do you have to try and make it about YOU?

All praise, glory, and honor belong to Jesus Christ alone who alone is worthy of our praise. He has given us EVERYTHING and he just keeps on giving.

I'll address your post later. No matter what though, we're not going to see eye-to-eye. As long as you continue to lift up yourself and your own abilities I'll continue lifting up Jesus our Lord and Savior. JESUS IS ENOUGH!

God Bless!

You're right. We probably won't see eye to eye, especially if what I wrote seems to you like I am glorifying myself.

Jesus Christ came as an example of how we should live, how we should love, and how we can overcome sin.

If by me persevering to obey my Father's commands, using the example my brother and Saviour in Christ left me, is glorifying myself and the Law, then, so be it.

Jon

Jon0388g · Feb 16, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
Grandfather personally heard and met EGW

Really?! What does he say about her?

Jesus is the Truth, and the Holy Spirit has promised to guide us into all truth.

You're right.

"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your law is truth." Psalm 119:142

The Bible says both Christ and the Decalogue are truth? Can't be!!! Can it?

"..I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Hebrews 8:10

And with the Holy Spirit living in us we are guaranteed to be obedient to His will. But we are shown the truth/Jesus first.

God bless!

I AGREE!

Jon

freeindeed2 · Feb 16, 2007

Jon0388g said:
Really?! What does he say about her?

You're right.

"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your law is truth." Psalm 119:142

The Bible says both Christ and the Decalogue are truth? Can't be!!! Can it?

"..I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Hebrews 8:10

I AGREE!

Jon

My grandfather died in 1990, so he doesn't really say much anymore. But I remember listening to his stories (he had many, many stories/jokes he told) and sometimes he would talk about EGW. I don't remember the specifics, but I know he heard her more than once and that he did meet her once.

He was born in 1896, so he was probably pretty young when he heard her. He and my grandma sold her books for a long time and they would share that they had met the author.

I should ask my parents (who are still SDA) if they remember any details. Anyway...

FI

OntheDL · Feb 16, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
Be careful how you use Scripture! If you're claiming that you're converted and that keeping the law (10 commandments) is the proof of that you are in big trouble!

These passages say that those who are with God DO NOT SIN.

So the BIG question is, by your own definitions, HAVE YOU STOPPED SINNING? Do you ever break the 10 commanments?

If you do then you must not be converted.

Be careful how you use Scripture. Legalists and law-mongerers are condemned by their use of these passages (because they are NOT keeping what they claim it's talking about).

(BTW, I never said there was a sentence in the 27(8) fundies that said you keep the law by your own power. Most who lift up the law instead of Christ believe they are in a semi-mutual cooperative effort where they are enabled to keep the law (only defined by the 10 commandments) with the help of the Holy Spirit.)

How does my spiritual condition have anything to do with your salvation? Can what I do save you? Were the scripture written for you too???

However the bible tells us if given the opportunity, we must become sinless, with His help.

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is heaven is perfect.

Be holy for I am holy.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

You and I are held to the same standard defined by the bible. That's to redeem our character to the likeness of Jesus' character. Do you think for a second you can enter into heaven while your sinful nature is not totally changed? Even if you do, you'd be miserable in heaven.

freeindeed2 · Feb 16, 2007

OntheDL said:
How does my spiritual condition have anything to do with your salvation? Can what I do save you? Were the scripture written for you too???

However the bible tells us if given the opportunity, we must become sinless, with His help.

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is heaven is perfect.

Be holy for I am holy.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

You and I are held to the same standard defined by the bible. That's to redeem our character to the likeness of Jesus' character. Do you think for a second you can enter into heaven while your sinful nature is not totally changed? Even if you do, you'd be miserable in heaven.

The difference is that I trust in Jesus to do this for me because I cannot do it on my own. In fact, on my own I stand against him.

I stand before God perfect because Jesus' righteousness has been credited to me (and not because of what I do). I don't have any righteousness on my own. I am FULLY dependent on Jesus for my righteousness. Any response that I am able to give is because his Spirit lives in me, not because I have somehow become good enough to do something for Him.

We tend to forget about the dire condition of our human nature. We are born with a sinful condition before we are even able to consciously DO anything against his will. It's much deeper than just our actions or behaviors. That's why it's not a 'cooperative' effort. Jesus has to do it ALL for us.

freeindeed2 · Feb 16, 2007

Jon0388g said:
Now who's making my text say what you want it to say?

You're right. We probably won't see eye to eye, especially if what I wrote seems to you like I am glorifying myself.

Jesus Christ came as an example of how we should live, how we should love, and how we can overcome sin.

If by me persevering to obey my Father's commands, using the example my brother and Saviour in Christ left me, is glorifying myself and the Law, then, so be it.

Jon

Jesus came as the propitiation for OUR sin. You do not do everything he did (nobody does). We are not called to reduce him to merely being an example, but to trust in him for our salvation. We have faith in Jesus to save us.

freeindeed2 · Feb 16, 2007

tall73 said:
I must admit. Adventists have taught this.

Thank you tall73.

Adventtruth · Feb 16, 2007

Originally Posted by OntheDL
I don't know whatelse to tell you except this: if our life is right with God, if we are obedient to His will, He will show us the truth.

Now this is justifification by works and not faith! Look what you have written here! Its all works!

This is why you won't debate me, and have me on your ignore list, because I expose you! Even Jon understand this.

I hope you are right before God my friend. I hoped you believed your performance has nothing to do with it, but I was wrong...you really do believe its by works!

You are saying your life has to be right with God, and you have to be obedient before He shows you truth?

Your perfrmance will never be good enough ontheDL.

AT

tall73 · Feb 16, 2007

Jon0388g said:
On the whole, I agree with you.

What better way of proving your loyalty to God than by keeping His commandments?

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3

How is this in conflict with the fact that the Sabbath day will be the final test of loyalty to God, as EGW teaches?

Jon

It is not in conflict in that respect. My point is that a strict reading of the text does not indicate precisely what issue is at stake. But we do know it involves worship, and we do know it will be an enforceable distinction.

Adventtruth · Feb 16, 2007

However the bible tells us if given the opportunity, we must become sinless, with His help.

So ontheDL have you become sinless YET? Remember now you must do the law perfectly.

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is heaven is perfect.

Be holy for I am holy.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

So tell us...how are we to be perfect, holy, and do His commandments? Are you talking about your performance again? If so you will fail every time ontheDl! Please trust Jesus! He is you perfection, your holiness, your commandment keeper, He is the only one without sin and He gives it all to you by faith in His blood. Only trust ontheDL!

You and I are held to the same standard defined by the bible. That's to redeem our character to the likeness of Jesus' character. Do you think for a second you can enter into heaven while your sinful nature is not totally changed? Even if you do, you'd be miserable in heaven.

Don't you understand that we will be changed at His coming? Only live for Him now as if He is your All! Please eccept His doing and dying for you ontheDl! Recieve His perfection for you and not your own perfection for you.

AT

MyCF Link: OntheDL.christianforums.com

tall73 · Feb 16, 2007

I think there is evidence that God informs the sincere...though not necessarily the obedient.

Paul was not obedient when Christ got ahold of him. He was sincere though.

Cornelius was both obedient and sincere...but didn't have all the facts.

God spoke to Abraham out of the blue.

The point is it is God's initiative to speak, and our initiative to respond. Paul was not "unfaithful to the vision from heaven."

But it was still Christ that so powerfully worked in him.

tall73 · Feb 16, 2007

Perhaps we can get to the specifics here. So far it is a lot of back and forth with little substantive discussion. Charges that one's whole system is false or flawed will not bring about learning but only emotive response.

What are the major issues to work out? Let's list them. Then let's make a thread on each on and go over the evidence from the Scriptures and the historical record.

I see no reason to doubt that freeindeed was not a pastor. But it really doesn't matter. The Bible either favors one side or the other or neither on the given issues.

tall73 · Feb 16, 2007

Issues already raised:

Sabbath, we have a thread on it already in DST
Eschatology (seal, mark, identification of the beast, remnant)
Ellen White
Sanctuary
the nature of the law/obedience
approach to scripture/hermeneutic, proof text, historical-critical, historical-grammatical
Great Controversy Theme

Jon0388g · Feb 16, 2007

Tall, for me, everytime a person makes the statement that we will fail everytime we attempt to be obedient to God's Law, it is essentially the same charge that satan has against God which caused 1/3 of the angels to be deceived.

Jon

tall73 · Feb 16, 2007

Jon0388g said:
Tall, for me, everytime a person makes the statement that we will fail everytime we attempt to be obedient to God's Law, it is essentially the same charge that satan has against God which caused 1/3 of the angels to be deceived.

Jon

I think that would fall under "Great Controversy Theme." I will add it to the list. But please don't fall into the irreconcilable differences trap before we have had a chance to iron out the specifics. We are in the "let's critique generally phase." It lends towards extremes and polarization. The specifics of the texts themselves tend to bring us back to reality that not everything is cut and dry. That is not relativism. That is just the facts. These things are more complex than we are allowing for in this mode of conversation.

There is no denying we are currently at very different understandings. But if one or the other is to be convinced it will be by prayer and careful reasoning and sincerity.

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