Adventist and Former Adventist Dialogue

Jimlarmore · Feb 15, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
OK. So you would say that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God, and Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast. Am I right here? (Let's not get stalemated by semantics. I am fine with the word 'observance' being there if it helps us move forward in the discussion.)

You still don't get it do you? Don't you see that the observance is only part of what can cause us to be sealed? Again, if you take observance only to it's logical conclusion then you are dealing with a legalisitc philosophy and the claim that we can save ourselves by doing that. No thanks I'm not going to bite on that bait. I will say again God alone seals us or judges us to have received the mark of the beast.

Even so, you cannot show CLEARLY from Scripture that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God? And you cannot show CLEARLY from Scripture that Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast? This is important here, because according to SDA beliefs it is the dividing wall or test of loyalty to God, and we will live or die by this issue. So it should be beyond the shadow of any doubt.

Sabbath observance and Sunday observance is only part of the problems we will face. There's much more to consider. The Bible makes it clear that Sabbath observance will be a sign between Him and His people. The hebrew word for sign is also translated as seal or flag. I'll be glad to show how it can be logically concluded that worship will be a point of contention just before the 2nd coming and that it can be logically concluded that sunday observance will be involved in that worship.

You don't have ANY idea what you are speaking about. It's possible you have heard me speak and even had hearty amen's for things I said that you agreed with.

I don't care if you were the president of the general conference. Based on what you are saying and trying to teach you didn't know what you were talking about back then or now for that matter.

For example:

It asks:
Which of the Ten Commandments contains all the elements of a seal?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is.

NOTE: The fourth commandment is the only one that contains all three elements of a seal: (1) "The Lord"--His name, (2) "made"--His office as Creator, (3) "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is"--His territory.

Note under the next question:

NOTE: God clearly states that He gave the Sabbath as a sign of His power to create and sanctify. It is His seal, or mark of authority. The words "seal," "sign," "mark," and "token" are used interchangeably throughout the Bible (compare Genesis 17:11 with Romans 4:11 and Revelation 7:3 with Ezekiel 9:4).
It establishes that the Sabbath was the SIGN. Then it says 'IT IS HIS SEAL'. Taking it even further it says that 'sign' and 'seal' can be used interchangeably throughout the Bible.

That is unquestionably true but that still does not mean the Sabbath is the seal itself and this does not say it is. However, this is still all just fishing and an attempt at invalidating the SDA church, not the real truth of the matter. The Seventh-day-Adventist church teaches more on the mark of the beast than any other church that I know of and they base the majority of what they teach on verses from the Bible. Do they have it mostly right? Yeah, I think so. Are they 100% perfect on it? Probably not. However my dear friend you don't fix leaks in your roof by jabbing sticks thru it. All you've done so far is throw rocks at a denomination and try to confuse issues and obfuscate Biblical truths. Why not show me from the Bible where the SDA's are wrong on this. IOW, from the Bible show me what really is the mark of the beast.

A reader will quite easily conlcude that the Sabbath is the Seal of God. I know, because I've watched them do it over and over again. Adding that it's the observance of the Sabbath that seals the believer doesn't really change anything here. SDAism still teaches that it's man's own action or behavior (observing) that 'causes' himself to be sealed (even if they claim it's in cooperation with the Holy Spirit).

Actions guided by the holy spirit is vital to salvation. Remember faith without works is dead.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

p.s. When are we going to get to the question of what sin is for you guys.

freeindeed2 · Feb 15, 2007

OntheDL said:
I didn't follow the whole thing. But obviously the above statement is not biblical.

The 'above statement' was my words answering a direct question about the Ezekiel 33 passage. I'll break it down for you so you don't miss what I was saying.

Originially quoted by freeindeed2:
God is speaking to the wicked here, not those who have been justified.

11"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,

So this was Biblical. He was talking to the wicked.

Israel was under the old covenant here too,

IMO, this is obvious since Jesus hadn't even come yet.

So this is Biblical. Ezekiel was still under the old covenant while writing this.

and Jesus had not come and fulfilled everything,

already established...

offering them a different way of being justified than by following the law.

"But now God has shown us a different way of being right in his sight--not by obeying the law but by the way promised in the Scriptures long ago. We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done." Rom 3:21-22

"For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times. And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in hi sight because they believe in Jesus.

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law." v.25-28

This statement came straight out of the Bible.

Jesus had not made atonement with his blood for sin yet,

already established that Jesus had not come yet when Ezekiel wrote.
and God had not forgiven and forgotten all of their sin like he does in the new covenant.
In the old covenant the sin was covered based on the promises of the coming Messiah, but it was not eradicated.

But in the new covenant sin is forgiven and completely wiped from the 'memory' of God. As in, He remembers our sin NO MORE.

31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

So this is Biblical too. In the new covenant their sins are remembered no more. This promise wasn't part of the old covenant, but the new, which Jesus ushered in. His blood atoned for all sin.

OntheDL said:
The OT saints are saved by the same way the NT believers are: by grace through faith.

Now they are, yes. Jesus (faith) has come and his blood has atoned for all sin.

OntheDL said:
Genesis 15:6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The new covenant is the covenant of Grace. Wasn't Abraham saved by grace?

He IS saved by grace. But he was counted as righteous because of his FAITH in GOD and HIS promises (Jesus being the ultimate promise).

OntheDL said:
The New Covenant is the eternal covenant God instituted after Adam and Eve sinned. It has been in effect throughout the ages. You need to understand that Jesus dying on the cross ratified the new covenant.

Scripture please!

The old covenant, or 10 commandments, came 430 AFTER Abraham and lasted UNTIL the SEED (Jesus Christ) came. (Gal. 3) Please show that the new covenant between God and Jesus was instituted from the fall.

OntheDL said:
The Old Covenant was never meant to save but was a provisional covenant that pointed to their needs for a savior.

Right, but at the time the passage was written the Savior had not yet come. So the new covenant was still in the form of a promise. The promise was FULFILLED in Jesus when he came and made atonement for our sins, offering his own blood (the blood of the new covenant).

freeindeed2 · Feb 15, 2007

OntheDL said:
Justification is a continual, daily process: dying daily.

We are never justified once for all until after the final judgment and are granted eternal life.

Scripture please!

Notice how these passages refer to justification--all having already taken place at some point in time in the past (when we believed/faith).

1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Titus3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

BTW, we are granted eternal life the moment we believe in Jesus for our salvation! Jn 5:24

freeindeed2 · Feb 15, 2007

OntheDL said:
here is the question, I don't think I saw your answer...

If Jesus did it all for the sinners to be saved, there is nothing for them to do, then why the majority of people will not go to heaven?

Who told you that the 'majority' would be going to hell? The Bible speaks of countless multitudes both for and against.

If Jesus didn't do it ALL for sinners then sinners will ALL be lost.

freeindeed2 · Feb 15, 2007

OntheDL said:
sign/seal/mark/token are all translated from one hebrew word: oth. The standard, the flag, the distinguishing mark.

Exodus 31:13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Ezekiel 20:20And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

According to the above scriptures, keeping of the sabbath is a sign between God and His people that they may know they are worshipping the Lord who sanctifies them.

The 7th day sabbath is a seal of authority of God.

These are all written to Israel under the old covenant/10 commandments. The Sabbath was the sign of the old covenant. It's not hard to find support for the old covenant sign in the old covenant.

OntheDL · Feb 15, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
These are all written to Israel under the old covenant/10 commandments. The Sabbath was the sign of the old covenant. It's not hard to find support for the old covenant sign in the old covenant.

Not so. God never made any covenant to gentiles. The gentiles are adopted jews and inherite the covenant God made with the patriarchs.

What denomination/church are you going now? The chances are I have quote of that denomination officially declaring the 10 commandments are eternal.

The differences between the old and new covenant are:

1. the old is written on stones, the new is written on our hearts

2. the promise to keep the law was made by men in the old, the promise to empower man to keep the law is made by God in the new.

OntheDL · Feb 15, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
Who told you that the 'majority' would be going to hell? The Bible speaks of countless multitudes both for and against.

If Jesus didn't do it ALL for sinners then sinners will ALL be lost.

what? Have you read this part?

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And how many were saved from the flood?

OntheDL · Feb 15, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
Scripture please!

Notice how these passages refer to justification--all having already taken place at some point in time in the past (when we believed/faith).

1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?

Titus3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

BTW, we are granted eternal life the moment we believe in Jesus for our salvation! Jn 5:24

All you have quoted say nothing of 'Once saved, always saved', justified once for all. If that was the case, why is there going to the final judgment?

How about these?

I die daily?

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

I'm sorry, but your problem did not begin just recently. It began with your Adventist education. It had been infiltrated by the enemy and it is now designed to fail you. And sadly it did.

Adventtruth · Feb 15, 2007

So if they were under the old covanant and Jesus death on the cross ratified the sins under the old covanant, then how is it that they were already saved under the old covanant if Jesus had not die?

AT

OntheDL said:
I didn't follow the whole thing. But obviously the above statement is not biblical.

The OT saints are saved by the same way the NT believers are: by grace through faith.

Genesis 15:6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The new covenant is the covenant of Grace. Wasn't Abraham saved by grace?

The New Covenant is the eternal covenant God instituted after Adam and Eve sinned. It has been in effect throughout the ages. You need to understand that Jesus dying on the cross ratified the new covenant.

The Old Covenant was never meant to save but was a provisional covenant that pointed to their needs for a savior.

Adventtruth · Feb 15, 2007

So why is it that law peddlers are unreasonable?

AT

Jimlarmore said:
The use of the english language can get us in trouble at times. What this appears to say is not what she meant to say. When she says the Sabbath is the seal of God she means the observance of the day according to God's commandment will lead to the seal of God. Anyone with a modicum of reasoning ability knows that this is not taken to be literal as it's read. No one that I know of thinks or teaches the day itself is the seal of God and this does not really say that either, read the context. A day Sabbath or otherwise is a 24 hour period of time and even though it's holy time that day in and of itself cannot seal anyone. Only God can seal someone. Do I need to show from scripture how and what seals us? If you read the context of this statement it's clear the observance of Sabbath in compliance with the commandment of God or Sunday in compliance with the commandment of man will lead either to the seal of God or the mark of the beast.

This is more like what I was saying before. The components of a seal are inside the 4th commandment but the day is not the seal. It's in observance and compliance with God or man that matters, not the day itself.

Again, the day itself is not the mark of the beast. Receiving the mark of the beast is a willful act on one's part to either observe by command of man to keep the 1st day of the week for religious purposes or just to survive ( i.e. be able to buy things ).

No it doesn't, you are making this all so skewed and confusing. The day is important but the day itself is not the seal or the mark.

This just goes to show that an ex-ordained minister who preached a long time in a denomination didn't know what he was talking about for years and years and still doesn't for that matter.

Please explain to me how a day can and of itself do anything. You are trying to confuse those here who may be trying to find the truth.

Adventtruth · Feb 15, 2007

OntheDL said:
And when God instructed Adam and Eve to sacrifice animals to cover their sins, wasn't that Grace???

Hebrews 10:1-4 (KJV) 1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

AT

freeindeed2 · Feb 15, 2007

OntheDL said:
Not so. God never made any covenant to gentiles. The gentiles are adopted jews and inherite the covenant God made with the patriarchs.

Gal 3:28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus."

We are the 'true children of Abraham' through faith.

Can you provide a Scripture showing that the gentiles inherited a covenant made with the 'patriarchs'? I'm not clear where you're coming from here.

OntheDL said:
What denomination/church are you going now? The chances are I have quote of that denomination officially declaring the 10 commandments are eternal.

The differences between the old and new covenant are:

1. the old is written on stones, the new is written on our hearts

2. the promise to keep the law was made by men in the old, the promise to empower man to keep the law is made by God in the new.

First of all, I don't belong to or attend a denominational church. So your quote won't work for that.

Secondly, the Bible does not teach that the 10 commandments are eternal. Even a cursory reading of them will reveal many elements that are certainly NOT eternal. Also, the 10 commandments weren't given as a covenant until 430 years after Abraham. (Gal 3) And they were only in place as a schoolmaster/tutor until the coming of the seed, Jesus Christ. (also Gal 3)

Thirdly, there are many more differences than that. The heart of the old covenant was the 10 commandments. The new covenant would NOT BE LIKE the one made with Israel at Mt. Horeb either (where they were given the covenant/10 commandments). The old covenant (even the 10 commandments) was made obsolete according to Hebrews 8:13

"When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside."

That was almost 2000 years ago!

If you say that the 10 commandments were NOT the old covenant then there's no way they could have been transfered to the new covenant either.

If you say that the 10 commandments were the old covenant, then there's no way they could be in the new covenant too because it's clear that the old covenant is obsolete.

Really, this is just an attempt (and you didn't come up with it, so please don't be offended) to focus people's attention to the law instead of on Christ. Paul dealt with all of the law-mongerers every time he preached. He would preach freedom in Christ and the Judaizers would follow up with "you can only be free in Christ whey you're keeping the law".

I don't have a denomination I'm defending. I don't have a prophet to defend. I don't have 28 fundamental beliefs to defend. I don't read the Bible anymore to prove preconceived ideas fed to me from birth. I don't have a second authoritative source for truth. I have nothing to gain personally or organizationally (in fact I lost a lot personally by leaving!). I'm no longer a pastor for the SDA church (and my job was not in jeopardy!). So you have to ask yourself...why do I post here? Why do you post here?

This is only ONE issue! There are many. Have you taken the time to search them out in an unbiased way? Have you ever put EGW to the test, by the Bible ALONE? Try it some time. Go to those "bad" websites and see if the SDA church has adequately responded to the questions that have been raised since even before the inception of the official SDA church, concerning Advent beliefs. Have you ever wondered why the whole of Christianity has not accepted SDA conclusions? (I know the answer to this one, but REALLY think about it.) Think about the claims.

Anyway, this is only one of many issues. I enjoy our discussion though. I will have to slow down a bit with my responses. I have to get some other things done. Please don't be frustrated if there is only silence for a while.

God bless!

Adventtruth · Feb 15, 2007

This just goes to show that an ex-ordained minister who preached a long time in a denomination didn't know what he was talking about for years and years and still doesn't for that matter.

Please explain to me how a day can and of itself do anything. You are trying to confuse those here who may be trying to find the truth.

Ok Jim...go ask TALL73 if the church teaches this. He is a Adventist Minister aswell.

AT

Adventtruth · Feb 15, 2007

OntheDL said:
sign/seal/mark/token are all translated from one hebrew word: oth. The standard, the flag, the distinguishing mark.

Exodus 31:13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exodus 31:13-17 (KJV) 13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you. 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

According to the above scriptures, keeping of the sabbath is a sign between God and His people that they may know they are worshipping the Lord who sanctifies them.

The 7th day sabbath is a seal of authority of God.

I guess you are an Israelite...do you keep it perfect? If not you are to be stoned.

AT

Jon0388g · Feb 15, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
I'm not saying that Christians make NO conscious effort to DO anything. I AM saying that any conscious effort on the part of a Christian is not what CAUSES them to be saved. If left up to our own will and desire, we would never make ANY conscious effort toward God.

Hopefully that makes what I said clearer.

Freeindeed, your argument leaves God's vindication in front of the universe in tatters. According to your reasoning, the devil can easily but in and assert that 1) God has made robots 2) It is impossible to obey His commands 3) There's no point in trying to please Him anyway because He chooses whoever He wants - we are just pawns in a chess game!

Do you not see this?

LOL. The context of a passage is what it is. You're the one trying to apply what Paul said in this passage to things he was not even speaking to. Read it for what it says, not for what you want it to say. The context of the passage as I quoted it is clear.

I have seen this many, many times on this website. The 'you cannot take it out of its context' argument is the most reliable counter. But, I'm afraid what I said still stands. A verse can be taken out of its immediate context if it can stand independently, and be applied to other situations. I am worried that you do not have the faith in your Lord that He strengthens you to do anything. Including overcoming your sin.

I absolutely AM saying that!

Can you save yourself?

No: I choose to be saved.

Can you offer your blood for the sins of all humanity?
Can you become God?
Can you create something from nothing?

These questions are meaningless and you know it. Can God build a rock so large that not even He can move it?

And the questions can go on and on. I agree with the exact reading of the text though, that Christ will enable us to endure in all situations we face here on earth, whether we have much or little, whether we are full or hungry, regardless of our circumstances, just like he did for Paul.

I am quite suprised that a confessed Christian does not believe that the power of God has limits to what it can achieve. Don't say I am putting words into your mouth either: you have already implied that we are powerless against sin - even with God's help. This I find disappointing.

A bit of Context:
25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"
27 Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."
Do you see the difference from what you were trying to make the text say. It's not talking about OUR abilities, but God's ability to save those who cannot save themselves!

This text says that we cannot save ourselves alone. With God, our salvation is possible.

Again, your reasoning suggests that either 1) Nobody is lost or 2) God is unfair - why choose X over Y?

Who actually cast the demon out? Was it the power and will of humans or God?

Are you serious?

Faith. That is what cast the demons out.

If we have no faith, we are powerless.

My Bible tells me Moses parted the ocean. My Bible tells me David killed a giant. My Bible tells me Peter walked on water.

Were these miracles done by the power of humans? Of course not! But did humans enact them? YES! "..to him who believes, all things are possible."

That's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus overcame sin for us because we had no power over it. He ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED IT FOR US. He asks us to trust in him for what he has already done.

Have you ever seen someone in a hopeless situation get rescued? Like someone drowning? I lifeguarded for many years and had to rescue kids many times. Never once did I go ask them if they wanted to be rescued before initiating action to save them. I did not go rescue them because they mentally consented to it, or because they worked in cooperation with me for their own rescue. In fact, quite the opposite. Often, even though they didn't want to drown, they did things that would have only helped them to drown faster. They had NO power to save themselves. Someone had to go and save them or they would be dead.

Saving humans is God's business, not theirs.

Freeindeed, you have not answered the question that many people have asked you. WHY ARE PEOPLE LOST THEN?

What do you do with this text?

"For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you." 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8

I thought you said that salvation had nothing to do with man's choice?

And this:

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4

If salvation has nothing to with man, and is wholly up to God, then surely, all men are saved according to this verse! See the problems yet?

What? Incompatible with your understanding? Must be the context..... lol

God is speaking to the wicked here, not those who have been justified. Israel was under the old covenant here too, and Jesus had not come and fulfilled everything, offering them a different way of being justified than by following the law. Jesus had not made atonement with his blood for sin yet, and God had not forgiven and forgotten all of their sin like he does in the new covenant.

You have not addressed the Scripture at all. Firstly, as OntheDL rightly stated, Jesus' death saves everyone from Adam right down to me and you today. Secondly, you are saying that God had not forgiven their sin yet. That is plain false. I hope I don't have to go into Scripture to prove that.

Thirdly, whether God was talking to the wicked or the justified is irrelevant. God implores mankind to turn away from their unrighteousness, 'and live.' If that is not clearly asking us to make the choice, then you will never see it.

Lastly, the passage states:

"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die." Ezekiel 33:13

If that is not a devastating blow to your 'Christ has done it all for us' theology and general OSAS undertones, then I don't know what is!

Here's a simple question...did YOU turn from your sin? If so, was it by your own power and will, or was it because of God's power and will?

If I ever completely turn away from my sin, God willing I do, it would be by my conscious effort yes, to employ the freely offered power from the throne of Jehovah, that Christ Himself successfully utilated to complete His earthly mission.

"Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." Jude 24-25

Jon

Jon0388g · Feb 15, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
That is unquestionably true but that still does not mean the Sabbath is the seal itself and this does not say it is. However, this is still all just fishing and an attempt at invalidating the SDA church, not the real truth of the matter. The Seventh-day-Adventist church teaches more on the mark of the beast than any other church that I know of and they base the majority of what they teach on verses from the Bible. Do they have it mostly right? Yeah, I think so. Are they 100% perfect on it? Probably not. However my dear friend you don't fix leaks in your roof by jabbing sticks thru it. All you've done so far is throw rocks at a denomination and try to confuse issues and obfuscate Biblical truths. Why not show me from the Bible where the SDA's are wrong on this. IOW, from the Bible show me what really is the mark of the beast.

Hey Jim,

We should not be reluctant to stand up for our beliefs. When EGW said that the Sabbath will be the final test for the professed believers of God, I believe she meant what she said. And I believe her to be true.

I myself am not 100% on EGW, I will admit, but the more I read of her, and what she claims, her writings are being spookily proven correct. I'm not sure if her critics realise they are proving her right all the more.

I have said this before, and I'll say it again. The Sabbath day is the one commandment that sticks out like a sore thumb of the Ten. "Remember..." Most of the law-abolishers have no problem with the other 9 - even though the Law is done away with, we are not meant to kill, steal etc. BUT: according to them, the Sabbath is ceremonial, it is not binding, bla bla bla. Sin is transgression of the Law. The Sabbath is part of the Law.

When EGW saw the fourth command glowing ever so slightly more bright than the others, I believe it was for a reason.

The Sabbath commandment is the sign between God's people, and the lost, throughout generations. If people have a problem with this, they have a problem with the Bible.

Jon

freeindeed2 · Feb 15, 2007

I'll get to this tomorrow. I'm out of time tonight. Basically you have just claimed, at the very least in part, to be your own savior. Typically, when SDA's post, their posts are rich with lifting up the law or their own abilities to keep it (or their precious 'free-will', or their own role in salvation, or their cooperation, etc.), but strangely lacking when it comes to lifting up Jesus. And no matter how strongly I say that Jesus is our salvation and that HE accomplished for us what we COULD NOT accomplish on our own, the conversation turns back to what 'we' can do.

Not ALL SDA's do this, but most do that I have posted with. It's all about them, or it's all about the law. Very rarely do I find an SDA that lifts Jesus up and says, "Look at HIM! He's the Savior of the world! He has accomplished your salvation for you! He is Worthy and Faithful to keep HIS promises!" I don't get it. Scriptures all pointed to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, and now that he has come and the Good News is a reality in Christ alone, all some can talk about is themselves and the law that Christ came to redeem us from. Some run to WHAT condems rather that running to WHO gives life. Others try to co-exist in an adulterous relationship with Christ and the law. We died to one in order to be joined to another! If you're so bent on your ability to make great choices, why not just 'choose' Christ? (even though he has chosen you!) Why do you have to try and make it about YOU?

All praise, glory, and honor belong to Jesus Christ alone who alone is worthy of our praise. He has given us EVERYTHING and he just keeps on giving.

I'll address your post later. No matter what though, we're not going to see eye-to-eye. As long as you continue to lift up yourself and your own abilities I'll continue lifting up Jesus our Lord and Savior. JESUS IS ENOUGH!

God Bless!

OntheDL · Feb 15, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
Gal 3:28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus."

We are the 'true children of Abraham' through faith.

Can you provide a Scripture showing that the gentiles inherited a covenant made with the 'patriarchs'? I'm not clear where you're coming from here.

From the same book...

If you are christ's, you are the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.

First of all, I don't belong to or attend a denominational church. So your quote won't work for that.

Secondly, the Bible does not teach that the 10 commandments are eternal. Even a cursory reading of them will reveal many elements that are certainly NOT eternal. Also, the 10 commandments weren't given as a covenant until 430 years after Abraham. (Gal 3) And they were only in place as a schoolmaster/tutor until the coming of the seed, Jesus Christ. (also Gal 3)

That's a misunderstanding of the law. The law 430 years after was the law of Moses.

The 10 commandments are eternal. No matter which protestant church or even catholic church you ask, they will tell you the 10 commandments are eternal.

But more importantly the bible tells us the principle of the 10 commandments exist before they were codifed at Mount Sinai.

Wasn't the 7th day sabbath instituted right after creation? Didn't cain sin after he killed his brother? Didn't God ask a pagan king not to sin for taking Abraham's wife?

If sin is the transgression of law and the bible says the devil sinned from the beginning, then the law was in effect from the beginning.

Thirdly, there are many more differences than that. The heart of the old covenant was the 10 commandments. The new covenant would NOT BE LIKE the one made with Israel at Mt. Horeb either (where they were given the covenant/10 commandments). The old covenant (even the 10 commandments) was made obsolete according to Hebrews 8:13
"When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside."
That was almost 2000 years ago!

If you say that the 10 commandments were NOT the old covenant then there's no way they could have been transfered to the new covenant either.

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
...
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The first failed because men did not keep the law. A covenant is a contract between two parties. The first failed because men's effort failed to keep their part of the contract. The second succeeds because of the better promise: God's promise! God will write the law into their hearts. This is the covenant of Grace! By grace, God will empower us to keep the law. If something is written in your heart, you do it naturally.

If you say that the 10 commandments were the old covenant, then there's no way they could be in the new covenant too because it's clear that the old covenant is obsolete.

See answers above.

Really, this is just an attempt (and you didn't come up with it, so please don't be offended) to focus people's attention to the law instead of on Christ. Paul dealt with all of the law-mongerers every time he preached. He would preach freedom in Christ and the Judaizers would follow up with "you can only be free in Christ whey you're keeping the law".

I don't have a denomination I'm defending. I don't have a prophet to defend. I don't have 28 fundamental beliefs to defend. I don't read the Bible anymore to prove preconceived ideas fed to me from birth. I don't have a second authoritative source for truth. I have nothing to gain personally or organizationally (in fact I lost a lot personally by leaving!). I'm no longer a pastor for the SDA church (and my job was not in jeopardy!). So you have to ask yourself...why do I post here? Why do you post here?

The sin and death came because of breaking of God's command. Jesus came to set an example for men to have victory over sin, to prove that mere mortal can have victory over sin if he/she replies on the power of God.

Doesn't the bible say the following?

1 Peter 2
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

This is only ONE issue! There are many. Have you taken the time to search them out in an unbiased way? Have you ever put EGW to the test, by the Bible ALONE? Try it some time. Go to those "bad" websites and see if the SDA church has adequately responded to the questions that have been raised since even before the inception of the official SDA church, concerning Advent beliefs. Have you ever wondered why the whole of Christianity has not accepted SDA conclusions? (I know the answer to this one, but REALLY think about it.) Think about the claims.

Anyway, this is only one of many issues. I enjoy our discussion though. I will have to slow down a bit with my responses. I have to get some other things done. Please don't be frustrated if there is only silence for a while.

God bless!

I know Jesus died for all of us. I want to be gracious. But the sad truth is that you never understood adventism and you were never a 7th-day Adventist. Don't be offended by that statement. Denominations don't get anyone to heaven. Our relationship with Jesus does. Our relationship with Him or what we do depends on what our believes are.

I don't know whatelse to tell you except this: if our life is right with God, if we are obedient to His will, He will show us the truth.

OntheDL · Feb 15, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
I'll get to this tomorrow. I'm out of time tonight. Basically you have just claimed, at the very least in part, to be your own savior. Typically, when SDA's post, their posts are rich with lifting up the law or their own abilities to keep it (or their precious 'free-will', or their own role in salvation, or their cooperation, etc.), but strangely lacking when it comes to lifting up Jesus. And no matter how strongly I say that Jesus is our salvation and that HE accomplished for us what we COULD NOT accomplish on our own, the conversation turns back to what 'we' can do.

Not ALL SDA's do this, but most do that I have posted with. It's all about them, or it's all about the law. Very rarely do I find an SDA that lifts Jesus up and says, "Look at HIM! He's the Savior of the world! He has accomplished your salvation for you! He is Worthy and Faithful to keep HIS promises!" I don't get it. Scriptures all pointed to the Messiah, Jesus Christ, and now that he has come and the Good News is a reality in Christ alone, all some can talk about is themselves and the law that Christ came to redeem us from. Some run to WHAT condems rather that running to WHO gives life. Others try to co-exist in an adulterous relationship with Christ and the law. We died to one in order to be joined to another! If you're so bent on your ability to make great choices, why not just 'choose' Christ? (even though he has chosen you!) Why do you have to try and make it about YOU?

All praise, glory, and honor belong to Jesus Christ alone who alone is worthy of our praise. He has given us EVERYTHING and he just keeps on giving.

I'll address your post later. No matter what though, we're not going to see eye-to-eye. As long as you continue to lift up yourself and your own abilities I'll continue lifting up Jesus our Lord and Savior. JESUS IS ENOUGH!

God Bless!

I challenge you to find one sentense from the 27 foundamental believes or EGW writings that says we can keep the law by our own power or we are saved by keep the law.

However keeping the law is the proof that we are converted.

How do you reconscile with this verse?

1 John 3
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

tall73 · Feb 16, 2007

Jon0388g said:
Do you agree that salvation is 100% a gift from Christ, but that we also have a part to play in choosing to accept this gift fully?

Jon

'

I do believe that Paul points that out in Romans 6. we are dead to sin. But we can still go back and volunteer for the slavemaster if we want. There is still a choice. We should not choose to do the things that brought death.

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