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Let's see if everyone will weigh in on this starting point so we see where we are at.
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I can live with that for now. I like the fact that you said "IN US" instead of "THROUGH US" (as if WE were the ones 'obeying' with the 'help' of the Holy Spirit). It is completely accomplished by GOD (Holy Spirit) on behalf of sinners and not the other way around.
On the sin issue, and we will be covering this to some degree in the Sabbath thread as well, can we all agree that the obedience that is called for in the new covenant is worked out by the Spirit in us?
That would be a starting point. Then we can go on to definitions, what constitutes the law on the heart etc.
Jon, Jon, Jon..! You put words into my mouth that I never said. Your conscious efforts have NOTHING to do with whether you're saved or not."So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:12-13
I can agree with what you have said, as Scripture confirms this. However, I would not go as far to say (as Freeindeed) that there is no conscious effort on our part as well.
This is the very passage I preached my last sermon on as an SDA pastor to a 2000+ member audience. I find it interesting you bolded the "I". Out of context it sounds like what you're trying to make it sound like. But in the context of what Paul was saying he says this:Jon0388g said:Phillipians says we must 'work out' our salvation, knowing also that God is at 'work' in us. Also,
"..let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained." Phillipians 3:16
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Phillipians 4:13
Yes, 100%, meaning ALL of it!Jon0388g said:Do you agree that salvation is 100% a gift from Christ,
I knew there would be a "but"....but that we also have a part to play in choosing to accept this gift fully?
Jon, Jon, Jon..! You put words into my mouth that I never said. Your conscious efforts have NOTHING to do with whether you're saved or not.
No, I don't believe we chose Christ. I believe he chose us and came after us and initiated all parts of salvation (100%). Our human nature was set against him and we would never choose him if he hadn't chosen us. Jesus saves! Salvation is not a cooperative effort on the part of both parties. We add NOTHING to the free gift of salvation Christ offers through his sacrifice on our behalf.
Please don't hit too hard. Can't we just discuss?I'm going to hit this one before I go back to some of your posts yesterday.
I didn't really say much about our mentality. I'm just saying that we don't save ourselves or add to Christ's free gift of salvation with our thoughts or actions. The Holy Spirit will alter how we think, but salvation is already ours when this takes place, as evidenced by the Holy Spirit living in us and making changes according to his (God's) will.Jimlarmore said:What you are saying here is that we don't even have to have a mental ascent to the plan of salvation to make it work in our life.
The entire Bible is about the salvic acts of God on behalf of sinful man. It was a perfect plan executed perfectly by Almight God because he is love.Jimlarmore said:Nothing could be further from the truth. If this was the case then absolutely no one would be lost yet we know better than that from scriptures. The entire Bible is about God pleading for mankind to turn around and follow Him,
Scripture please.Jimlarmore said:...both of these acts i.e. turning around and following are works that start in the mind and conclude with actions to change behaviours etc. This truth tells us one thing and that God honors man's free will to decide to follow Him or not.
I didn't say that. I'm saying that there is no part of salvation (being saved, causing one to be saved) that is the result of our actions/behaviors/thoughts. If it was, then we could save ourselves.Jimlarmore said:So this means literally everyone in the entire world is saved then. How do you reconcile texts like Rev 20:9 then?
No sir. I'm addressing these questions to a denomination that believes those who aren't keeping the Sabbath by the end of time will be lost (unless receiving the Mark of the Beast does NOT mean they are lost).
And sure I take issue with how SDA's 'keep' the Sabbath. The church teaches that all must keep it but can't define how it should be kept, and they don't keep it how it was given! Who wouldn't take issue with that?
It stood firmly in place UNTIL its fulfillment, which Jesus clearly told the people he had come to do.
Please show me from Scripture that God MADE the Sabbath at creation. On the 7th day he RESTED from all that he had made (because it was completed!). He didn't MAKE anything on the 7th day.
Also, can you show from Scripture that God continued to rest every 7th day thereafter without making ANY assumptions?
Jim, do I need to go find the sources on this one. You and I both know that Adventism teaches that the Sabbath IS the seal of God. We both know that EGW clearly said the Sabbath would be the 'dividing wall' and the 'final test of loyalty'. I don't have the sources in front of me, but did you NOT know the SDA church taught this? I've heard many SDA evangelists (including Finley and Batchelor, Nelson, etc.) say these things while being on the platform with them (I was never on with Batchelor). Don't tell me I'm being disingenuous and inaccurate!
Then you should have no problem explaining EXACTLY how it is to be kept.
Nice veiled accusation for those who do not live by the letter but by the Spirit. You have a difficult time realizing that the Holy Spirit has not convicted most Christians of the Sabbath, so you would rather accuse them of 'selfishly directing their own paths instead of following Christ' than accept the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Now you should be able to see where the contention comes from. It comes when groups like SDA's tell all other Christians that they are obligated to keep the Sabbath if they love God, and then won't answer direct questions when asked EXACTLY how it should be kept. They go on to tell them they will receive the Mark of the Beast and be lost. Then they see the inconsistencies between SDA beliefs and practice.
Please don't hit too hard. Can't we just discuss?
I didn't really say much about our mentality. I'm just saying that we don't save ourselves or add to Christ's free gift of salvation with our thoughts or actions. The Holy Spirit will alter how we think, but salvation is already ours when this takes place, as evidenced by the Holy Spirit living in us and making changes according to his (God's) will.
The entire Bible is about the salvic acts of God on behalf of sinful man. It was a perfect plan executed perfectly by Almight God because he is love.
Scripture please.
Do you really trust in your 'free-will' to always make the right decisions? Consider the track-record of humans and what they (we) have done with 'free-will'...
I didn't say that. I'm saying that there is no part of salvation (being saved, causing one to be saved) that is the result of our actions/behaviors/thoughts. If it was, then we could save ourselves.
Jim, did you manufacture your own faith? Did you cause yourself to believe in Jesus? Did you initiate accepting salvation? Is salvation a result of your actions? Do you not believe that the work of salvation is 100% God's work? 100%?
This truth tells us one thing and that God honors man's free will to decide to follow Him or not.
"The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them, have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God." Great Controversy, p.640I will continue to say you are being inaccurate because you are in the fullest sense of the word. I have been to many prophecy seminars and listened to many evangelistic sermons and not one time did anyone say the Sabbath was the seal of God. This is heresy in my opinion and a false accusation on what is being taught. It's true that the Sabbath contains the elements of a seal but the seal of God is done directly by Him before Christ comes back. I'm not saying they haven't said that Sabbath observance will be an element that allows the seal of God to come on us but the Sabbath as a day set aside is not and never has been the seal of God all by itself.
Jon, Jon, Jon..! You put words into my mouth that I never said. Your conscious efforts have NOTHING to do with whether you're saved or not.
It is completely accomplished by GOD (Holy Spirit) on behalf of sinners and not the other way around.
"Your conscious efforts have NOTHING to do with whether you're saved or not."
This is the very passage I preached my last sermon on as an SDA pastor to a 2000+ member audience.
I find it interesting you bolded the "I". Out of context it sounds like what you're trying to make it sound like. But in the context of what Paul was saying he says this:10 How I praise the Lord that you are concerned about me again. I know you have always been concerned for me, but you didnt have the chance to help me. 11 Not that I was ever in need, for I have learned how to be content with whatever I have. 12 I know how to live on almost nothing or with everything. I have learned the secret of living in every situation, whether it is with a full stomach or empty, with plenty or little. 13 For I can do everything through Christ,[c] who gives me strength. 14 Even so, you have done well to share with me in my present difficulty.
15 As you know, you Philippians were the only ones who gave me financial help when I first brought you the Good News and then traveled on from Macedonia. No other church did this. 16 Even when I was in Thessalonica you sent help more than once. 17 I dont say this because I want a gift from you. Rather, I want you to receive a reward for your kindness.
18 At the moment I have all I needand more! I am generously supplied with the gifts you sent me with Epaphroditus. They are a sweet-smelling sacrifice that is acceptable and pleasing to God. 19 And this same God who takes care of me will supply all your needs from his glorious riches, which have been given to us in Christ Jesus.
20 Now all glory to God our Father forever and ever! Amen.As you will see when you read the whole context, this in NO WAY is talking about or even implying that WE (I) overcome sin with God's help.
I knew there would be a "but".
No, I don't believe we chose Christ. I believe he chose us and came after us and initiated all parts of salvation (100%). Our human nature was set against him and we would never choose him if he hadn't chosen us. Jesus saves! Salvation is not a cooperative effort on the part of both parties. We add NOTHING to the free gift of salvation Christ offers through his sacrifice on our behalf.
"The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them, have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God." Great Controversy, p.640
"The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord's memorial of creation...
The mark of the beast is the opposite of this--the observance of the first day of the week." Testimonies vol. 8, p. 117
From Amazing Facts study guide:
The book of Revelation tells us that there will again be a battle over how to worship and everyone will be identified by either the seal of God or the mark of the beast.
The study goes on to establish that the Sabbath is the Seal of God and Sunday is the Mark of the Beast.
I used to use this study guide when people wanted to know the 'truth'. Here's a link so you can look it up for yourself. Listen to Doug B. preach on this sometime. He makes it really clear what SDA's believe to be the seal and the mark. I'm not sure what prophecy seminars you've been to or listened to, but this is openly taught by the SDA church. I taught the same thing through the seminar guides when I did SDA prophecy seminars. Anyway, here's the link.
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/mark_of_the_beast_2.asp
OK. Here's what I responded to:You said:
and you've said:
That is what I said you said! lol
Jon0388g said:I can agree with what you have said, as Scripture confirms this. However, I would not go as far to say (as Freeindeed) that there is no conscious effort on our part as well.
LOL. The context of a passage is what it is. You're the one trying to apply what Paul said in this passage to things he was not even speaking to. Read it for what it says, not for what you want it to say. The context of the passage as I quoted it is clear.Jon0388g said:Woah!
Freeindeed, the 'context' argument only works when the Scripture being taken out of context cannot be applied to any other situation, full stop.
I absolutely AM saying that!Jon0388g said:Are you saying, that we cannot do all things through Him? I emphatically disagree if you are.
A bit of Context:Jon0388g said:Jesus said with the faith of a mustard seed we can command the mountains to tumble. He also said:
"...With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God." Mark 10:27
Who actually cast the demon out? Was it the power and will of humans or God?Jon0388g said:Even more blatantly, Jesus revealed
"And Jesus said to him, "If you can? All things are possible to him who believes." Mark 9:23
That's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus overcame sin for us because we had no power over it. He ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED IT FOR US. He asks us to trust in him for what he has already done.Jon0388g said:It simply isn't saying what you want it to.
Elijah prayed that it would not rain. You know what happened.
If we pray with the faith of Elijah for God to help us overcome sin, will we?
Have you ever seen someone in a hopeless situation get rescued? Like someone drowning? I lifeguarded for many years and had to rescue kids many times. Never once did I go ask them if they wanted to be rescued before initiating action to save them. I did not go rescue them because they mentally consented to it, or because they worked in cooperation with me for their own rescue. In fact, quite the opposite. Often, even though they didn't want to drown, they did things that would have only helped them to drown faster. They had NO power to save themselves. Someone had to go and save them or they would be dead.Jon0388g said:Freeindeed, what you assert is largely correct, but the error is very subtle. Please do not take offence. Salvation is a free gift, otherwise "grace is no longer grace" as Paul says.
But, a gift is something we still have to choose. If we have no choice in the matter, then it is not salvation - it is conscription.
God is speaking to the wicked here, not those who have been justified. Israel was under the old covenant here too, and Jesus had not come and fulfilled everything, offering them a different way of being justified than by following the law. Jesus had not made atonement with his blood for sin yet, and God had not forgiven and forgotten all of their sin like he does in the new covenant.Jon0388g said:"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel? ... But when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them." Ezekiel 33:11, 19
God Himself pleads for the wicked to turn away from their unrighteousness.
OK. Here's what I responded to:
...?
God is speaking to the wicked here, not those who have been justified. Israel was under the old covenant here too, and Jesus had not come and fulfilled everything, offering them a different way of being justified than by following the law. Jesus had not made atonement with his blood for sin yet, and God had not forgiven and forgotten all of their sin like he does in the new covenant.
God is speaking to the wicked here, not those who have been justified.
OK. So you would say that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God, and Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast. Am I right here? (Let's not get stalemated by semantics. I am fine with the word 'observance' being there if it helps us move forward in the discussion.)This is more like what I was saying before. The components of a seal are inside the 4th commandment but the day is not the seal. It's in observance and compliance with God or man that matters, not the day itself.
You don't have ANY idea what you are speaking about. It's possible you have heard me speak and even had hearty amen's for things I said that you agreed with.Jimlarmore said:This just goes to show that an ex-ordained minister who preached a long time in a denomination didn't know what he was talking about for years and years and still doesn't for that matter.
Good question! Yet SDAism claims that salvation itself comes down to how each person observes a 24 hour period of time. Now you can see why I asked EXACTLY how it is to be observed, since it's not being observed like it was commanded.Jimlarmore said:Please explain to me how a day can and of itself do anything. You are trying to confuse those here who may be trying to find the truth.
OK. So you would say that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God, and Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast. Am I right here? (Let's not get stalemated by semantics. I am fine with the word 'observance' being there if it helps us move forward in the discussion.)
Even so, you cannot show CLEARLY from Scripture that Sabbath observance is the Seal of God? And you cannot show CLEARLY from Scripture that Sunday observance is the Mark of the Beast? This is important here, because according to SDA beliefs it is the dividing wall or test of loyalty to God, and we will live or die by this issue. So it should be beyond the shadow of any doubt.
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