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So was the corruption due to sin generally or worldliness? Were not the wicked also not far removed from Eden?
Cain and Abel are a perfect example of Godly men and wicked men, but you knew that already. Feigning ignorance.
I am asking you to reconcile disparate point of your view. Cain was ungodly. Able was Godly. Seth followed the Lord.
They were not different races. They were all brothers. And even if you take from there that different nations formed, does that mean that if someone from Cain's line regarded the Lord, they could not marry someone from Seth's line?
Was the issue race or fidelity to the Lord? You might read my responses to Bob and LGW above.
And later, foreigners were joined to Israel. So although Israelites were warned against marrying people of other nations who drag their heart from the Lord, if someone from another nation worshipped the Lord, there was no issue. It was not about race. Race was brought into this by Ellen White without warrant. And "seeing" evidence of it in races is without warrant.
Were you proposing giants in Ellen White's day? Because she indicated it was seen in certain races.
You know I meant preflood. Again, feigning ignorance.
I know you meant pre-flood. But again, I am trying to get you to apply your definitions from the pre-flood statement to the later statement. Unless you are changing the meaning of amalgamation between statements, which seems unwarranted. Your definition then is applied throughout all that she said to see if it works.
In Ellen White's times she sees evidence of the "base crime" of amalgamation in "certain races" of men.
Now you said there were no giants today in one of your statements. But you also said you think all races now are corrupt.
So I was trying to see what you thought changed from Ellen White's time to today, if then certain races were corrupt, and now you think all are. And I was trying to figure out if you meant there were giants in Ellen White's day. Some actually do think that and mention accounts of Giants in North America. So I am trying to understand. Again, you are presenting your view, and I am trying to understand it and apply it to both quotes.
So in Ellen White's day she sees "certain races" that have amalgamation and the defacement of the image of God.
But does that really make sense with your view of what she is saying? If the image of God is debased by turning away from God then it is not physical, but spiritual. And it is not therefore an issue of race. People of any race can worship the Lord. People of any race can turn away from the Lord.
And there has never been any race that did not have people turning from the Lord. Israel at points was filled with idolatry.
Also, can you explain what you mean by races? Why would worldliness be associated with race?
Leading the witness and again, feigning ignorance. It was Ellen that specified races. We are discussing the limited scope of her mere paragraphs about amalgamation. I posted what she said, with context.
Yes, indeed, it was Ellen White who "specified" races, or brought race into it at all.
However, you are here trying to explain what she meant by that. So we do have to understand what you are now trying to say. And it is a very real question to me how race is a sign of holiness or fidelity to the Lord.
I would think people's faithfulness to the Lord is the test, regardless of race.
Now Ellen White indicated race, but you are the one describing that in terms of believers and unbelievers. I don't think that was the meaning of race in Ellen White's time. There were believers and unbelievers in various races in her time, correct? And belief is not tied to race.
No, I am just asking why you think certain races showed these effects, and asking if you know which ones. You make it sound like a mystery, but she said it was visible, could be seen. So what are the markers?
Again, I told you, Ellen didn't name races, neither can I. I mentioned giants, men of renown, what else does scripture say? That's a rhetorical question.
A few questions. Is it your suggestion that giant people are by default ungodly? Or only certain giants or families of giants mentioned in the Scriptures that were described as evil? I am trying to understand your viewpoint on this again.
And no, Ellen White did not mention which races. But the notion of godly or ungodly races is a problem whether she specified or not. Because there can be godly or ungodly people of all races.
And the idea of mixing of races being a base crime is a problem.
Cain's line by your reasoning was evil from day one, and everyone in it. But do we know that? And how did his line become a different race overnight?
So you see the Spirit of God as associated with races? Some have it, and some don't? Some races sin and are corrupt, and others are not?
Did you read my post or did you completely ignore it?
Genesis 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
The Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) lingered with men, but began to wane because of the corruption of Satan; because of the disconnect from God due to sin. The Holy Spirit is a key aspect that distinguishes people of God from people of the world—spiritual. But you knew that. Again, leading the witness and feigning ignorance.
No! I am saying that it has nothing to do with race! The Holy Spirit comes upon people of all races who trust in the Lord.
And this is where I decided to put a stop to this line of questioning.
Twisting my words into new questions that lead to your foregone conclusions is not a discussion, it's a bait and switch. How this? How that? When you know the answers already. I explained each point in detail, there should be no question what my point of view is.
No, there are some aspects I really don't understand about your view. And applications to the quotes that I am not sure fit your view. Are you saying once you post your view no clarification or challenge may be provided?
You are proposing an explanation for her view. I am saying that explanation makes spirituality about race. And that is a problem.
Allow me to quote everything I said about race, so there's no confusion here.
- As to who the corrupt races of men are, I think all races are inherently corrupted to some degree at this late stage of the end time (as per the days of Noah).
Exactly. And I am asking you how that changed from Ellen White's statement, which you seem to claim is legitimate, that in her time it was only CERTAIN races that had this corruption.
And I am asking you why race has anything to do with it.
We don't have giants in this day and age, but the corruption is everywhere to be seen.
Right, and I asked you if you thought they had them in Ellen White's day, because some do think that, and I don't know if you are one of them.
- I mentioned the giants. If it's not in the Bible, I can't tell you what other races or creatures there were.
Right, but the problem is that you associate it with race in the first place, rather than whether someone follows the Lord. Races are not monolithic in that regard.
- You're asking me to put words in Ellen's mouth by naming races she herself didn't name anywhere in her writings. I don't think you can say Uriah Smith quoted Ellen when he named names.
I am trying to get you to reason out the statements you have made in relation to the statements she made.
She said certain races of men show this corruption.
You say today all do.
well....
That means you had some, certain corrupt races in her day.
And now you have all races corrupt.
And what exactly does that even mean? As soon as one person of a race turns to idolatry didn't that end the purity of the race, no marriage needed?
Was there any nation in Ellen White's day that was uniformly following the Lord?
- ...and why do you think those races were more likely to be worldly? Satanic corruption, as was stated.
So some races....physical traits, etc. are associated with ungodliness? Or at least in Ellen White's day? But now all are?
Does that mean there are no faithful people left?
Or was it just not about race to begin with.
- How did some races manage not to be worldly? The Spirit of God, as was stated.
So races were holy? Everyone in Seth's line was holy as long as they didn't marry into Cain's line?
Is the primary mechanism of unholiness marriage to an unholy person, or can you become unholy by turning away from the Lord?
I included your quotes in italics in the last two bullet points for reference.
Ellen said what she said. I quoted context in my first post. You can think what you want about what she said. Uriah Smith said what he said. You can think what you want to think about what he said.
I think folks can guess what I think about what she said. But I have been asking Adventists what they think.
Uriah Smith posited a blurring of the line between man and animal.
I am still trying to figure out what you are saying, but it appears to be positing holy and unholy races in Ellen White's time.
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