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Babylon controlled the world, so did the Meds, the Greeks and the Romans, just not every inch if it. Each power controlled more and more of it. The question was why was the orthodox church not bought into the prophecies, because they were never a world power.
This topic is not about which group has the most members. The point is that most denominations do not engage in "Communion with the Dead" and we both know it. So it cannot be cast as "Just SDAs" vs Orthodux.
This is of course entirely untrue, as even a cursory knowledge of history would reveal. The Ottoman Empire and Russia, for example, played a pivotal role in world history between the 13th and 19th centuries, when the Inquisition was in effect.
Babylon controlled the world, so did the Meds, the Greeks and the Romans, just not every inch if it. Each power controlled more and more of it. The question was why was the orthodox church not bought into the prophecies, because they were never a world power.
I do not understand why there would be any problem with Communion with the Dead given that in dying and rising Jesus conquered death, and the meaning and impasse of death as the full stop at the end of life has changed irrevocably, for death is now simply the gateway to immortality for those who die in Christ.
There is a bit of a "long tail" effect with denominations.
Collectively, the Orthodox and Catholics represent the second largest and largest denominations
, and together with high church Anglicans like my colleage Phillip
What is more, the "Communion with the dead" is neither seance nor necromancy, and to liken it to such is deeply offensive.
On this point you are mistaken; the subject of prayers for the deceased and the communion of the saints (who are not dead by the way; they are more alive than you or I are alive) is a tangent
, which is distracting us from the actual topic, which is my argument that since Orthodox doctrine is more extreme than Catholic doctrine in a direction contrary to Adventist values, that this refutes Adventist prophecies relating to Rome, and subsequently, the "whole enchilada."
On this point you are mistaken; the subject of prayers for the deceased and the communion of the saints (who are not dead by the way; they are more alive than you or I are alive) is a tangent, which is distracting us from the actual topic
I propose that if one regards the Catholic Church as bad, the Orthodox must be regarded as infinitely worse. Whereas the Roman mass ends with "Ite, missa est," which simply means "Go, it is the dismissal," the Eastern Orthodox liturgy ends with petitions for the intercession of several saints.
CCC 958 "Communion with the DEAD"
That is a Catholic doctrine in their Catechism - no doubt you have something similar. I am not convinced that one of you is better or worse off than the other in that regard.
I propose that if one regards the Catholic Church as bad, the Orthodox must be regarded as infinitely worse. Whereas the Roman mass ends with "Ite, missa est," which simply means "Go, it is the dismissal," the Eastern Orthodox liturgy ends with petitions for the intercession of several saints.
This is of course entirely untrue, as even a cursory knowledge of history would reveal. The Ottoman Empire and Russia, for example, played a pivotal role in world history between the 13th and 19th centuries, when the Inquisition was in effect.
1] My name is Philip with one [L]. My family didn't have a lot of L's when I was growing up!Do Anglicans claim to pray to the dead?? Maybe your colleague Phillip and clarify that for us.
1] My name is Philip with one [L]. My family didn't have a lot of L's when I was growing up!
2] I am not sure why the term colleague is appropriate - I would see Paul and myself as 'brothers in Christ'
3] Anglicans make few claims - we have no creeds of our own save the creeds of the Catholic Church,
we have no sacred texts beyond the canon of the Old and New Testament, we have no particular rite, custom or sacrament save that which we have received from the saints of old including Alban, Cuthbert, Botolph, Wilfred, Augustine, Theodore, Mother Julian, Bede, Stigand, Anslem, and many many more.
Dead is an interesting word to use when we are talking about the Church, and I am not sure that it has a lot of meaning in the context of the prayerful and sacramental life of the Church,
Prayer life for Anglicans includes Intercession and Supplication, Thanksgiving, Confession and Adoration. These can be summed up as Please and Thank-you, Ooops and WOW! As Anglicans we pray together, and we pray alone. We pray for ourselves (supplication) and we pray for others (intercession).
I suspect that the question you are asking me is that come the time (as it surely will) that his heart ceases to beat and his brain waves can no longer be detected, is it all over red rover, or can I trust the promises of Christ and continue to share in the love of God with him in communion with saints and angels and all the company of heaven.
I refer to the Catholic Church that we refer to in the Nicene Creed.So then you just want me to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) to get the details?
I have no opinion of it. It has never been an Anglican Document. We are not a Confessional Church.Do you accept/reject the "Westminster Confession of Faith"?
I take this to mean physically dead yet alive in Christ"the DEAD in Christ"
I don't get this 'pray to' business. Surely if we cannot continue to share in the community of God's love we are implying that the death of Christ accomplishes nothing. I would not want to pray to, so much as to pray with. I refuse to reduce all of this to giving and getting which ultimately is materialistic.More pointedly - can you pray to your departed friend and either ask favors of him, praise him for something or offer to do favors for him that will help him in his afterlife?
I don't get this 'pray to' business. Surely if we cannot continue to share in the community of God's love we are implying that the death of Christ accomplishes nothing. I would not want to pray to, so much as to pray with
May the souls of the faithful departed Rest in Peace and Rise in Glory!
So then the Anglican church has no document or statement encouraging its members to pray to departed loved ones, saints?
The question is pretty basic. For example both Anglicans and Southern Baptists will say they believe that everyone has an immortal soul and is alive while being described by Paul as "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 - but if you ask about the SBC telling people it is ok to pray to the dead, pray to departed loved ones, pray to the saints... etc. The simple answer will always be "no".
Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul's delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep as well
And better than thy stroke; why swell'st thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.
John Donne Holy Sonnets
John Donne, Dean of St Paul's 1621-1631, and certainly no friend of the Catholics, yet his poem in Holy Sonnets I have printed above in many senses I suspect touches on what most Anglicans believe about death.
I have just looked up the Westminster Confession of Faith, and my immediate impression is that to some extent it seems moulded after the Thirty Nine Articles - which is not for us a Confessional Statement - adding what they believe to be missing and omitting that for which they cared little, and as such significantly changing from the inclusive nature of the Thirty Nine Articles to a more specific and exclusive statement.
Chapter XXVII quite liked this statement which in some aspects has borrowed phrases and ideas in the Thirty Nine, yet has clearly extended to notion of the communion of saints in a holistic and helpful way.
Of the Communion of Saints
Westminster Confession of Faith
- All saints, that are united to Jesus Christ their Head, by His Spirit, and by faith, have fellowship with Him in His grace, sufferings, death, resurrection, and glory: and, being united to one another in love, they have communion in each other's gifts and graces, and are obliged to the performance of such duties, public and private, as do conduce to their mutual good, both in the inward and outward man.
- Saints by profession are bound to maintain an holy fellowship and communion in the worship of God, and in performing such other spiritual services as tend to their mutual edification; as also in relieving each other in outward things, according to their several abilities and necessities. Which communion, as God offers opportunity, is to be extended unto all those who, in every place, call upon the name of the Lord Jesus.
- This communion which the saints have with Christ, does not make them in any wise partakers of the substance of His Godhead; or to be equal with Christ in any respect: either of which to affirm is impious and blasphemous. Nor does their communion one with another, as saints, take away, or infringe the title or propriety which each man has in his goods and possessions.
I recall being taught of the Church as Glorious and Victorious in Heaven, of the Church as Militant here on Earth (and sometimes a bit to militant for my liking), and the Church Expectant awaiting the return of Jesus, yet like the Holy Trinity this is not three Churches but one Church, understood always to be at one in prayer, in communion with our Saviour and Redeemer, Jesus Christ Our Lord.
Matter matters, but it is not the only thing that matters.
I think it is ingenues and defeatist to conclude that physical death destroys communion and brings an end to prayer.
BobRyan said: ↑
So then the Anglican church has no document or statement encouraging its members to pray to departed loved ones, saints?
The question is pretty basic. For example both Anglicans and Southern Baptists will say they believe that everyone has an immortal soul and is alive while being described by Paul as "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4 - but if you ask about the SBC telling people it is ok to pray to the dead, pray to departed loved ones, pray to the saints... etc. The simple answer will always be "no".
I am not sure that the anthropology you suggest is as I would understand it. I would probably prefer to say that everyone physically alive has a body. To reiterate my earlier statements that you do not seem to get, I don't talk about praying to but rather praying with. To exclude the physically dead from our life of prayer seems to me to give death more victory than it deserves.
Whilst my personal preference is for the Nicene Creed, I recognise that as Anglicans we also receive the Apostle Creed which includesCommunion of the saints
This is an interesting notion considering that 2 Maccabees shows someone making prayer and offerings for the sins of the dead.They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!
Whilst my personal preference is for the Nicene Creed, I recognise that as Anglicans we also receive the Apostle Creed which includes
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen
My question, perhaps different to yours, is do you believe that those who are physically dead yet alive to God in Christ Jesus pray? And if they pray would you like to be included in their intercession or not? And if it is ok for them to include you in their intercession, why would it not be reasonable for us to include them in our intercession? Surely that is part of what it means to believe in the communion of saints?
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