Addressing LDS scriptural problems

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twhite982

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ByGrace said:
Yes that is why I left. I am glad that you are open minded enough to at least look and see what references are given with a clear mind. Good luck. I know such peace since accepting the Biblical Jesus and I would love for all to know it. God bless.

Thanks.
I know and love the Biblical Jesus.

TW
 
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ByGrace

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Yeah I have a ton of info. to present but I want to do it so it is not overwhelming. I figured two a day would be good. Also, if you believe in the Biblical Jesus, why do you adhere to the lds teachings? Even one of your leaders (forget who) said in a conference that the lds people worship a different jesus then that worshiped by orthodox Christianity. The jesus worshiped by the lds people was not begotten by the power of God through the Holy Spirit but by a sexual relationship between God and Mary and is also a polygamist and only one of many millions of gods. That is very different from the Bible.
 
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twhite982

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ByGrace said:
Yeah I have a ton of info. to present but I want to do it so it is not overwhelming. I figured two a day would be good. Also, if you believe in the Biblical Jesus, why do you adhere to the lds teachings? Even one of your leaders (forget who) said in a conference that the lds people worship a different jesus then that worshiped by orthodox Christianity. The jesus worshiped by the lds people was not begotten by the power of God through the Holy Spirit but by a sexual relationship between God and Mary and is also a polygamist and only one of many millions of gods. That is very different from the Bible.

I'll answer these the best I can when I have a reference I can look at myslef. Although, I appreciate your opinion, I don't base any truth on just what you've told me alone.

I haven't been an active member for long now and can't rattle these answers off the top of my head like alma and justme did.

By the way,
Looking through an old forum: LDS questions and answers and the 11 pages of responses that I read through, I'm not going to break my neck trying to come up with answers to all those questions that regarless of how I respond you won't care what I have to say.

I will try to answer some of your questions, but I'm going to do it at my leisure and convienance.

TW
 
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Have you heard the one out the mormons at first not allowing darker then pure white in their church? There is a story that God put a curse onto cain for killing Abel, ( it says he was turned to darkness) they believe this means people of color I have heard) Can any of you explain this one to me, please. :D


Jennifer
http://givenright.com
 
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Serapha

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ByGrace said:
Yeah I have a ton of info. to present but I want to do it so it is not overwhelming. I figured two a day would be good. Also, if you believe in the Biblical Jesus, why do you adhere to the lds teachings? Even one of your leaders (forget who) said in a conference that the lds people worship a different jesus then that worshiped by orthodox Christianity. The jesus worshiped by the lds people was not begotten by the power of God through the Holy Spirit but by a sexual relationship between God and Mary and is also a polygamist and only one of many millions of gods. That is very different from the Bible.

"Even one of your leaders (forget who) said in a conference that the lds people worship a different jesus then that worshiped by orthodox Christianity."

The quotatation is as follows...

"The traditional Christ of whom the (Christians) speak is not the Christ of whom I speak (LDS President Gordon Bl Hinkley in Paris; Deseret News, June 20, 1998, also LDS Church News, week ending June 20, 1998, p.7)


Also,

"It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus
Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
(LDS Seventy Bernard P. Brockbank, The Ensign, May 1977, p.26)




Most apologists of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints contend that this quotation is taken out of context.


While this forum supports the concept that members should think for themselves, when discussing a particular statements such as was done in this statement, it is better to identify sources rather than using random statements. There is cause for less confusion and conflicting statements.


I am interested in reading these postings on the evidences of the book of mormon, or the lack thereof... but with some type of substantiation and with no demeaning comments.


That a denomination is brought into question should not be taken personally. On this forum, every denomination, every doctrine, dogma, and tradition seems to fall under the scrutiny of someone.

~malaka~
 
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Serapha

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givenright said:
Have you heard the one out the mormons at first not allowing darker then pure white in their church? There is a story that God put a curse onto cain for killing Abel, ( it says he was turned to darkness) they believe this means people of color I have heard) Can any of you explain this one to me, please. :D


Jennifer
http://givenright.com



Hello Jennifer,

To answer your inquiry,

and to quote Joseph Fielding Smith, from his essay, The Way to Perfection,


"Is it not a reasonable belief, that the Lord would select the choice spirits to come through the better grades of nations? Moreover, is it not reasonably to believe that less worthy spirits would come through less favored lineage? Does this not account in very large part, for the various grades of color and degrees of intelligence we find in the earth?"

Also, Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66 posts very explicit statements which I will not post here.


Mormon teachings brought out the fact that if one were good enough, then the color of their skin could be changed. The dark skin was considered to be satan's representation on the earth (numerous references available from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 10th, and other prophets)


The texual criticism is based upon a passage from the book of 1 Nephi 30:6

"And then shall they rejoice: for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them save they shall be a white and delightsome people."

Also,

1 Nephi 12:23 (prophecy of the Lamanites)
"became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations."

However, in the 1970's there were several actions that cause the prophet of that time (Spencer Kimball) to sincerely seek the truth of revelation from God.

1) The IRS began to question the not-for-profit tax-exempt status for the church based upon their teachings concerning race. Then-President Carter discussed this matter with the then-prophet Kimball.

2) The colleges and universities across the United States were issuing statements that they would begin boycotting BYU sports events and sports programs.

3) The NAACP began filing lawsuits against the Boy Scout troops supported by Mormon wards/stakes concerning racism.

4) Racial activists began campaigns to urge people to curtail tourism to Utah or to purchase <<record albums>> of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. (yes, it was "records" in those days)

5) Surprisingly, the mormon church built a lage temple in Brazil which could not be used by the majority of converts because they had trace lineages of "black" blood in their background.



Surprisingly, the prophet Spencer Kimball received a progressive revelation from God that changed the entire teachings of the LDS church. That is issued in Official Declaration #2, September 30, 1978. "Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color."


This is, of course, a very brief history of the racial indiscretions that existed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but it is also one that need not be brought up again and again since the denomination teaches and accepts progressive revelation; therefore, a mormon sees no problem with the past indiscretions since revelation was received from God that changed church teachings. Progressive revelation is a part of the restored church.




Questions?


~malaka~


<edited for "profit" and "prophet" ... ooops!>
 
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KelsayDL

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Indeed, I have questions.

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110.

The reader should be reminded that Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church said that whatever he preached was as good as scripture -- J. D. Vol. 13, page 95, 264.

So, how does progressive revelation acct for the words of Brigham Young, more specifically this will ALWAYS be so?

I think you meant to say, progressive political correctness in the mormom church, in order to appease society.

But it most certainly would not be appeasing to the founders of mormonism, nor to Brigham Young.
 
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Serapha

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KelsayDL said:
Indeed, I have questions.

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110.

The reader should be reminded that Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church said that whatever he preached was as good as scripture -- J. D. Vol. 13, page 95, 264.

So, how does progressive revelation acct for the words of Brigham Young, more specifically this will ALWAYS be so?

I think you meant to say, progressive political correctness in the mormom church, in order to appease society.

But it most certainly would not be appeasing to the founders of mormonism, nor to Brigham Young.


Hi Kelsay :wave:

You have your opinion,
"I think you meant to say, progressive political correctness in the mormom church, in order to appease society.

But it most certainly would not be appeasing to the founders of mormonism, nor to Brigham Young."


I posted "facts".


~malaka~
 
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ByGrace

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Okay, here is for todays entries.

2 nephi 28:14 says that they were "followers of Christ. If you look at the bottom of the page you will see that this is hundreds of years before Christ was even born and therefore there could not have been followers alive.

Enos 1:21 Here they speak of "horses" but they were not on this continent until after the Spanish invasion.

More tomorrow.
 
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twhite982

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KelsayDL said:
Indeed, I have questions.

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, page 110.

The reader should be reminded that Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church said that whatever he preached was as good as scripture -- J. D. Vol. 13, page 95, 264.

So, how does progressive revelation acct for the words of Brigham Young, more specifically this will ALWAYS be so?

I think you meant to say, progressive political correctness in the mormom church, in order to appease society.

But it most certainly would not be appeasing to the founders of mormonism, nor to Brigham Young.


You are trying to put your own beliefs into our doctrine.
The J of D isn't doctrine. Our doctrine comes from our 4 standard works, The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.

Brigham Young also said ((Sorry will take a little time to find the exact reference), paraphrasing here)) that the saints need to get confirmation of the spirit. Also as I've tried to point out the J of D IS NOT scripture. There are many truths contained in those discourses and many love to focus on the few statements made by Brigham Young that appears to bring discredit to the church. I know for a fact you haven't read more of what Brigham Young said about Loving your enemy, Living a good life, Being a living example of the Savior, etc..., etc...

I have read this speech and I know which part you're referring to. Point blank I disagree with that portion of the speech. Yet I still believe that Brigham Young is a prophet. He was a fallible man, true, but still a prophet. Look at Brigham Young as whole.

TW
 
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KennySe

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twhite982 said:
I have read this speech and I know which part you're referring to. Point blank I disagree with that portion of the speech. Yet I still believe that Brigham Young is a prophet. He was a fallible man, true, but still a prophet. Look at Brigham Young as whole.

TW
I'm glad for Mr. Young that he was not a prophet to the Jews as depicted in the Old Testament. For a prophet who speaks ONE falsehood was to be stoned to death.
 
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ByGrace

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The mormons may stand up and say that this and that are not "doctrine" but then why do they follow it? In the doctrine and covenants the word of wisdom is given "NOT AS COMMANDMENT" supposedly by God but then briggy came in and made it commandment and now the lds church wont allow you even baptism if you smoke or dring tea. Brigham said that any sermon he gives and is then given the opportunity to correct is as good as scripture and must be taken as such by the mormon people. So, does this include the teaching that Adam was and is God? of course it does since he taught this many times and riled on those that had a problem with it. He even had 21 years in which to correct it if it was wrong.

What is the point of a prophet if you cant listen to what he says? If you dont even know when he is a prophet and when he is not?

Joseph Smith prophesied he would sell the copyright to the book of mormon in Canada and when it fell through he said that some prophecies are of man, some of God, and some of the devil. Can you really follow a prophet who does not know Gods voice? How many other things he instituted were of the devil?????
 
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twhite982

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ByGrace said:
The mormons may stand up and say that this and that are not "doctrine" but then why do they follow it? In the doctrine and covenants the word of wisdom is given "NOT AS COMMANDMENT" supposedly by God but then briggy came in and made it commandment and now the lds church wont allow you even baptism if you smoke or dring tea. Briggy said that any sermon he gives and is then given the opportunity to correct is as good as scripture and must be taken as such by the mormon people. So, does this include the teaching that Adam was and is God? of course it does since he taught this many times and riled on those that had a problem with it. He even had 21 years in which to correct it if it was wrong.

What is the point of a prophet if you cant listen to what he says? If you dont even know when he is a prophet and when he is not?

Joe Smith prophesied he would sell the copyright to the book of mormon in Canada and when it fell through he said that some prophecies are of man, some of God, and some of the devil. Can you really follow a prophet who does not know Gods voice? How many other things he instituted were of the devil?????

ByGrace,

I appreciate your help with me in getting to understand my faith better. My testimony doesn't rest with you though.

I don't think that I've insulted you or demeaned your beliefs at all. You use the name "Briggy" and "Joe Smith", and I can just see that you are looking for a fight.

I said that I'd answer questions the best I could about my faith, but I need to do that and take these insults against men that I esteem as prophets of God.

Thanks again for the help.
TW
 
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ByGrace

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Okay, I will give you that. I have not been respectful in this manner and I apologize. I do not want to be insulting. In the future I will refer to them in the appropriate form or by initials. Please though do consider what is being said, as I know you are. I know that your faith has nothing to do with me but you must remember that when you were being sought for baptism you were called an "investigator." Do just that. Investigate. God bless, and again, I am sorry for the dis-respect.
 
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