Adam's Sin

[Dorothy Mae]

Oh. Not my opinion. I was just repeating what the reference in Acts actually said.

Yes but many became christians. Probably respect is a good word.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you say God did that to them to SHOW us what happens if we do and NO ONE since was so struck down for that reason, it begs the question as to why.
Alesson for what? You said what happens when we lie to the HS. But then you admit people lie to the HS and nothing happens. Do you see the problem? It’s not a lesson.
I didn’t but thanks for pointing it out. Very astute, both the poster and you. It is true.
Most Christians aren’t walking on a level where those sins result in swift response.

I think it’s because they knew a lot more than we do. To whom much is given, much is required. It wasn’t a lesson for us. Most aren’t on that level. Those who are don’t need that passage to know what is required.
Youre not the first to say this sort of thing and it astounds me every time. People write what they know in a post and then claim no one knows what they know even after reading what they wrote.

He’s a good teacher for sure.

If people are lying to the Holy Spirit and nothing happens to them now, then it may be a combination of God's mercy and patience with them. But to say that nothing will ever happen to them is a mistake because if it doesn't happen now, it will happen at the judgment, because it is appointed unto everyone once to die and after this comes the judgment. We all will have to give an account of ourselves to God. In actual fact, no one will escape because no one is actually going anywhere!

But if we judge ourselves, then we will not be judged. Therefore, if I recognise that what I have done is sin, and I confess it as such, agreeing with God, and judging myself as a sinner who deserves hell because I have broken God's Law, but asking God for mercy, and then trusting in Christ's finished work on Calvary, that He has paid the full price for my sin, then I will be totally forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, and will have confidence when the day of judgment comes.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If people are lying to the Holy Spirit and nothing happens to them now, then it may be a combination of God's mercy and patience with them. But to say that nothing will ever happen to them is a mistake because if it doesn't happen now, it will happen at the judgment, because it is appointed unto everyone once to die and after this comes the judgment. We all will have to give an account of ourselves to God. In actual fact, no one will escape because no one is actually going anywhere!

But if we judge ourselves, then we will not be judged. Therefore, if I recognise that what I have done is sin, and I confess it as such, agreeing with God, and judging myself as a sinner who deserves hell because I have broken God's Law, but asking God for mercy, and then trusting in Christ's finished work on Calvary, that He has paid the full price for my sin, then I will be totally forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness, and will have confidence when the day of judgment comes.

A and S and the rest of them obviously did not hold that view in its entirety. That isn’t how God dealt with their sin at the moment.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes but many became christians. Probably respect is a good word.

The verse says that they were afraid the associate with the church, but respected it. If Christian people are walking right with God, the unsaved community may not believe our gospel, but they will respect us.

Although, when I wrote that, the thought came to me that we as Christians will be hated by the world for Christ's sake, and they will persecute and kill us. This is happening in any countries of the world right now.

So, honestly, I am not sure how to reconcile respect from the unsaved community, and persecution; except that the common people heard Jesus gladly, but the religious leaders hated Him and wanted to kill him. This is what is happening in today's world, where it is religious people who are persecuting Christians. It happened with the RCC 400 years ago, and it is happened today in Muslim countries. And also in China because of atheistic communism, which is not coming from ordinary Chinese people, but from the political leadership.

So it may be true that ordinary unbelievers may respect truly godly Christians even though they don't believe the gospel, but it is the religious and political leaders who see Christians as a threat to their power who persecute and kill them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A and S and the rest of them obviously did not hold that view in its entirety. That isn’t how God dealt with their sin at the moment.

There is no record of any re-occurrence of it so we don't really know if believers being struck dead was a regular thing. Herod through himself a god, and was consumed by worms and died, and a false prophet who tried to interfere with Paul preaching to a Roman official was struck blind; but these were unbelievers.

But the fact remains that there is going to be a day of judgment, and we are all going to end up there whether we like it or not. Preaching that would not make a preacher popular and would not draw crowds to his church in the same way that these neo-prosperity preachers are preaching that Jesus is our friend who will give us everything we want.

So the righteous and the hypocrite will end up at the judgment together, and the Scripture says that the angels will separate the righteous from the hypocrites according to whether they genuinely received Christ, or just "got" the Christian religion.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The verse says that they were afraid the associate with the church, but respected it. If Christian people are walking right with God, the unsaved community may not believe our gospel, but they will respect us.

Very true. I agree.

Although, when I wrote that, the thought came to me that we as Christians will be hated by the world for Christ's sake, and they will persecute and kill us. This is happening in any countries of the world right now.

Yes. It’s interesting. In some places and times we are hated. In other places and times we are respected.

So, honestly, I am not sure how to reconcile respect from the unsaved community, and persecution; except that the common people heard Jesus gladly, but the religious leaders hated Him and wanted to kill him. This is what is happening in today's world, where it is religious people who are persecuting Christians. It happened with the RCC 400 years ago, and it is happened today in Muslim countries. And also in China because of atheistic communism, which is not coming from ordinary Chinese people, but from the political leadership.

So it may be true that ordinary unbelievers may respect truly godly Christians even though they don't believe the gospel, but it is the religious and political leaders who see Christians as a threat to their power who persecute and kill them.

Yes, that is one reason. We see exactly that in Acts. Sometimes held in respect and sometimes stoned to death.

Probably depends upon who feels threatened, as you pointed out.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

There is no record of any re-occurrence of it so we don't really know if believers being struck dead was a regular thing. Herod through himself a god, and was consumed by worms and died, and a false prophet who tried to interfere with Paul preaching to a Roman official was struck blind; but these were unbelievers.

But the fact remains that there is going to be a day of judgment, and we are all going to end up there whether we like it or not. Preaching that would not make a preacher popular and would not draw crowds to his church in the same way that these neo-prosperity preachers are preaching that Jesus is our friend who will give us everything we want.

So the righteous and the hypocrite will end up at the judgment together, and the Scripture says that the angels will separate the righteous from the hypocrites according to whether they genuinely received Christ, or just "got" the Christian religion.

Yes I agree. Enjoyed reading your thoughts there. Good job of expressing that truth. Blessed me!

 

[bling]

Who??

The Bible does not say anything about Jesus restoring the Spirit, Adam and Eve lost, since they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

Not correct. The aging process didn't start until they were corrupted by the Fall.

We do not know that, we just know they would not die (so they could age) with the help of the tree of life, which they had not eaten from yet. The tree might have stopped their aging.

They didn't have to, because they had direct fellowship with God and did not need faith. Also they did not need to preach to sinners because before the fall, sin had not entered into the world. The power of the Holy Spirit that came upon the believers at Pentecost was to support the preaching of the gospel and to make disciples for Christ.

You bring up a good point: “They did not need faith”, so is “faith” necessary?

What does faith do?

After they sinned and were thrown out of the Garden, did they need faith to be saved? God with His huge Love would easily been able to forgive them, but were they to proud to humble themselves to the point of having to accept undeserved pure charity or would they trust (have faith) in God’s Love (something like the prodigal son had to do)?

The 3000 who trusted (had faith) in what Peter was saying accepted the indwelling portion of the Spirit with water baptism.

Quenching the Holy Spirit is a grievous sin in itself because it shows disrespect for the Spirit and the Jesus who bestows Him to believers in Him.

OK, so is the Holy Spirit involved with you in your sinning?

By siding with Satan and following his suggestion instead of remaining faithful to what God commanded them, they grieved the Holy Spirit and they lost their standing with God and the purity of their physical bodies because of it. Their righteousness became corrupted by sin, and so the Holy Spirit had to withdraw from them because He cannot abide with unrighteousness.

You are suggesting while Adam and Eve had the Spirit, they sided with satan, followed satan’s suggestion, and then sinned which grieved the Spirit? What is the Spirit doing while Eve is talking with satan? Eve would have to quench the Spirit first to go down this path, but the more likely scenario is Eve and Adam did not have the Spirit at this time?

Christian believers can disobey, but then they are not depending on their own righteousness, which is still corrupt until they are glorified in the presence of Jesus when they join Him in the air at the Rapture. They have the righteousness of Christ, who, as the second Adam, obeyed all God's commands, and so His righteousness is acceptable to the Father, and that is the righteousness that we have. So that when we fail to abide by God's moral law, He does not hold that against us, because Jesus paid the full price for our sins, and so there is nothing for us to pay. We just confess the sin to God and He forgives and cleanses us from all unrighteousness.

There is a lot in your little paragraph and yes there is nothing for us to “pay” to God, put there is also nothing for Christ to “pay” to God, since God forgave the complete debt. So who is kidnapper being offered this huge ransom?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You bring up a good point: “They did not need faith”, so is “faith” necessary?

??
No matter who,
without faith,
it is impossible to please Yahuweh.

If their faith in the Creator was 'better'?, maybe they would not have been tricked.

 

[bling]

??
No matter who,
without faith,
it is impossible to please Yahuweh.

If their faith in the Creator was 'better'?, maybe they would not have been tricked.

Is knowledge of God's existence, mean you have faith in God's existence?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is knowledge of God's existence, mean you have faith in God's existence?

Does that knowledge please God? (the demons have that knowledge, and cannot please God)

Is that knowledge experiential knowledge ? (living with God , experiencing Him and His life)

 

[HardHead]

Is the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (us)? Why or why not?

For me it's not an inherited guilt that we bare. We are in the material condition of being sinful (i.e made of fallen matter) due to Adam's sin but we are not personally guilty of Adam's sin because we did not do it, in my opinion.

What is imputed to us is that we are made of fallen matter and as such we lack the pre-fall attributes that Adam and Eve once had in the garden. This imputation is not guild though, at least not for me.

We are guilty of our own sins as we go through life in the fallen cosmos in our fallen bodies.

 

[eleos1954]

They don’t remain babies.
Babies never die because of they behavior or thoughts. They die from disease or mistreatment from adults. They those persons die, they are not babies but grown out of babyhood. So no, that doesn’t leave an inborn sin nature.
His mother was thought to have committed adultery. Doesnt affect the baby.
Sun nature is never mentioned in the bible and babies are not described as sinful.

No, it’s a false doctrine designed to help men avoid real repentance for deeds they really did. The Holy Spirit is replaces by a doctrine.

1st Corinthians 15:53
New International Version
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Are we conceived mortal or immortal? Was Adam & Eve originally created mortal or immortal? What was it that changed and thereby effected everyone conceived thereafter? At conception are we perfect or imperfect?

What are the wages of sin? Because of sin what is passed on to the human race?

and I didn't say .... we inherit the sins Adam & Eve committed (each are responsible for there own sin).

We were and are talking about babies and small children ... so let's stay in that context ok?

 

[Josheb]

Is the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (us)? Why or why not?

I wish I had come to this op before its discussion got so lengthy because it's an important question, and the answer is one most don't wish to accept.

I'd start by ask you to define your terms. How is "guilt," or more specifically, the "guilt of Adam's sin" intended to be understood for usage in this discussion? Same question for the term, "sin." Same with "imputed." We can't discuss the matter cohesively if we're not using like terms in like manner.

Most people define "sin" as "lawlessness," because of 1 John 3:4. The problem is John did not say "sin is only lawlessness;" and scripture gives us several ways to define sin, such as "whatever is not done from faith is sin," or "all unrighteousness is sin," and it holds us to standards that are not wholly defined by law, such as "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect." In other words, the Bible defines sin as a condition that is a function of both conduct and disposition and the two are inextricable. This is generally understood in the adage, "We sin because we're sinners and we're sinners because we sin." It's a "feedback loop."

So if that definition of sin is acceptable to all then the question becomes something like, "Is the guilt of Adam's imperfect unrighteous unfaithful disposition and lawless or disobedient conduct imputed to his offspring? and the answer to that question is most definitely in the affirmative. This is seen most visibly in scripture in verses such as Romans 5:12 where we read "...sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, because all sinned." While much debate has ensued about the nature of the verse's causality we can all agree that it is speaking to an inescapable phenomenon everyone will experience. No one except Jesus was or ever will be born who does not sin. This is similar to the language used in John 3:19 when we are told men love darkness because their deeds are evil. This might be a point of debate for some but having stated the point I'll now move on and entertain exegetical responses as they arise. The point is there is a scriptural basis for understand the pervasive effects of Adam's disobedience.

However, I will provide a more modern reason for understanding the ancient truth taught us in scripture concerning Adam's disobedience. This has to do with what we now understand about the physiological effects of trauma. Adam (and Eve) was created good, unashamed, and sinless. I assume everyone knows where scripture reports those facts but if not I will entertain relevant inquiries to list the applicable references as needed. At Genesis 3:6 Adam was good, unashamed, and sinless. At Genesis 3:7 he disobeyed God in in that instant became not-good, ashamed, and sinful. This is an existential change in his inherent disposition so severe it borders on an ontological significance: he is fundamentally different than he had previously been and there was no way back, no way to reverse the change.

This is trauma.

We know that everything we do gets recorded in memory. Everything. The record of everything Adam did was stored in his memory cells. The experience became physically recorded in the brain.

We also know that sudden, intense and stressful events cause the brain to overload a specific neural pathway and that pathway then becomes the normal route of processing all similar experiences. Again: the experience causes a physiological change that is permanent unless actively changed to re-diversify brain function.

We also know that through the process of cellular mitosis the genetic record contained in each and every cell eventually gets transferred to all cells, so the record of the "fall" (I'm not a big fan of the term and prefer to speak of Adam's disobedience), the record of his disobedience, the changes it caused within him, and the consequences that ensued all got recorded in the brain's cells and eventually in every cell in his entire body.

We also now know that many psychological traits and conditions have a genetic basis.

We also know that two imperfect conditions do not normally combine to create a perfect condition. Two imperfect creatures do not procreate to create perfect progeny. The physiological (biological, neurological, genetic, etc.) effects of trauma are very real. Largely unknown outside the relevant scientific communities but very really and relevant. As our theologians become more informed about this our understanding of scripture will become better informed about the realities of Eden.

So we therefore have a biological basis for understanding what happened in Eden had a very serious, profound, and universal impact on humanity. The trauma of disobedience got recorded in the physiology of Adam and Eve and then passed on to their progeny. Remember that sin is not solely about behavior; it is also about disposition and the inherent disposition of both Adam and Eve is cognitively, emotionally, volitionally, and physiologically imperfect. We also know the effects of Adam's disobedience had substantive and irreversible effects on his spiritual disposition, his relational disposition with God, self, others, and creation. We know he went from being the last good man to being "dead in transgression" (I don't use the term "spiritually dead" because it is not a term scripture uses; what scripture describes is "transgressionally dead.").

So there is plenty of objective, scientifically repeatable and verifiable evidence nowadays for understanding the effects of Adam's disobedience was and remains pervasive. This is, of course, not information unknown to the ancients or the ECFs when they formed our doctrines but God has known all along about all the effects of causation we finite humans slowly uncover as we plod through history.

Simply put: Adam and Eve became imperfect and that imperfection in all of its manifestations was passed on to their progeny. That doesn't have much to do with the classical definitions of "imputed," but the physiology alone makes any assigning of legal "guilt" moot. This is, admittedly, an unusual way to look at Genesis 3:7 but it is very real and unassailable.

(my apologies for the length of the post)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

?? Jesus told the permanent disciples He was teaching "YOU must BE perfect, because YOUR heavenly FATHER IS PERFECT" (understood as NOT being nor meaning "perfect" in the English definition)...

And Yahuweh told the Ekklesia: You must be HOLY as I the Lord your Elohim is HOLY.

Simple truth. Accomplished by the Father to the little children trusting in Him and relying on Him to accomplish all things concerning Salvation.

the man made and used concepts of so-called genetics have nothing to do with this.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Bible does not say anything about Jesus restoring the Spirit, Adam and Eve lost, since they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

We do not know that, we just know they would not die (so they could age) with the help of the tree of life, which they had not eaten from yet. The tree might have stopped their aging.



You bring up a good point: “They did not need faith”, so is “faith” necessary?

What does faith do?

After they sinned and were thrown out of the Garden, did they need faith to be saved? God with His huge Love would easily been able to forgive them, but were they to proud to humble themselves to the point of having to accept undeserved pure charity or would they trust (have faith) in God’s Love (something like the prodigal son had to do)?

The 3000 who trusted (had faith) in what Peter was saying accepted the indwelling portion of the Spirit with water baptism.


OK, so is the Holy Spirit involved with you in your sinning?

You are suggesting while Adam and Eve had the Spirit, they sided with satan, followed satan’s suggestion, and then sinned which grieved the Spirit? What is the Spirit doing while Eve is talking with satan? Eve would have to quench the Spirit first to go down this path, but the more likely scenario is Eve and Adam did not have the Spirit at this time?

There is a lot in your little paragraph and yes there is nothing for us to “pay” to God, put there is also nothing for Christ to “pay” to God, since God forgave the complete debt. So who is kidnapper being offered this huge ransom?

Adam and Eve didn't need faith because they had direct fellowship with God who walked with them in the garden. But they lost the direct fellowship when the disobeyed God and became corrupted by sin.

The penalty for Adam and all his descendants for the corruption brought about by the entrance of sin into the world and into the physical bodies of Adam and Eve was, and is, death. God warmed them that they would die if they ate of the tree, and so they did. The corruption in their physical bodies because of sin was carried own down to their offspring and descendants. This is why Paul says that we have the sentence of death in ourselves. This is why we will die physically. Our DNA has been corrupted by sin, and we age and die.

Forgiveness is impossible without the just penalty being paid, no matter how much God loves us. It is true that God is a God of love and forgiveness, but He is a God of justice as well. There is a penalty that has to be paid, and the penalty is death and hell. In the same way a judge just forgiving a serial murderer because he loves him, without that murderer paying the penalty, would be unjust, and the murderer would have to receive the death penalty or life in prison. For a judge to just forgive such a murderer would be totally unjust and an insult to every law-abiding critizen in the country! There are those who think that God is some lovey-dovey celestial teddy bear that is going to just forgive everybody. Those people will get a rude and horrifying shock at the judgment!

All this is Christian gospel 101! Jesus, who is God, came as a human person, died on the cross, paid the penalty for our sin by becoming sin for us and receiving the wrath of His Father for it, and then after three hours on the cross, knew it was finished, and cried out with a loud voice, "It is finished! The debt has been paid!" Then He gave up His life.

Because of sin, we owe a great debt to God that we can never repay no matter how good we are, faithful to our church, living a moral life, doing good deeds, etc. But Jesus paid that debt for us, took the penalty for our sin, thereby enabling God to forgive us. We are not forgiven because we deserve it, but that Jesus died for us and took the penalty on Himself for us.

That also is gospel 101. Even children in Sunday School learn that!

Because the Fall prevented us from having direct face to face fellowship with God, He inspired the writing of the Bible, to show us His nature and character; and to show His plan of salvation through Christ. The coming and death of Christ is prophesied right through the Old Testament, and most of these prophecies have been fulfilled. The Bible has been written that we might believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that we might believe on Him. That is the whole purpose of the Bible.

Therefore, faith is believing what the Bible says about Christ, and what we must do to be saved from judgment and hell. The Scripture says, "By grace we are saved, through faith, not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any should boast in them."

 

[HardHead]

We were and are talking about babies and small children ... so let's stay in that context ok?

The original post is more general than this.

I agree that children are the route through which inheritance is achieved, but this is not only about children. Have a look at the start of the thread ...

Is the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to his offspring (us)? Why or why not?

 

[HardHead]

But they lost the direct fellowship when the disobeyed God and became corrupted by sin.

I think I agree with what you said but it does not get to the idea whether or not we are guilty of Adam's sin or do we only carry its consequences.

It seems you are saying we are not guilty but are descendents of a corrupted univernse. Is this what you mean?

 

[HardHead]

We are not forgiven because we deserve it, but that Jesus died for us and took the penalty on Himself for us.

Nice. I agree with this.

This sacrifice/payment was a gift of love and compassion. He did what none of us could and He did it because He wanted to help and save us. We are the recipients of His grace and mercy through this sacrifice.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. (John 3:16, NRSV)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think I agree with what you said but it does not get to the idea whether or not we are guilty of Adam's sin or do we only carry its consequences.

It seems you are saying we are not guilty but are descendents of a corrupted univernse. Is this what you mean?

Something happened in Adam's physical body at the genetic level. It caused him to start aging. The human body is designed to replace all it cells every seven years, and so it should not age. But because of sin and the curse of God because of it, a fault happened in man's cellular structure and so as each cell was replaced, it was not as perfect as it was before. It is like taking a copy of a copy of a copy of a video. As each copy is taken, it is not has clear as the one before. That is why when you watch historical videos, you will see that the example videos they show are fuzzy and out of focus. That is because those videos are copies of copies of the original. That is why the human body ages.

Adam was a perfect man, therefore it took 900 years for his body to age and finally wear out. His immediate descendants also lived very long lives. But at some stage, God decided to limit the human life span to 120 years. This is why we don't find many, if any, people living beyond that. The "three score years and ten" requirement was limited to the disobedient ones who had to die in the wilderness because they refused to listen to the testimony of Joshua and Caleb and refused to go into Canaan when they were supposed to. That generation had to die out, and so God limited their lifespan to 71 years. Joshua and Caleb, being faithful to God, lived longer than that.

When we receive Christ, we receive a new heart and spirit and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us, but our physical bodies have to die, because being born again does not repair the cellular structure of our bodies. We are still under the sentence of physical death, but after death, we will be resurrected into glorified bodies like the one Jesus has.