Adam was made from the dust of the ground.....

[Kenny'sID]

If your challenge was meant to get me to provide evidence supporting evolution,

No it was to provide proof, and preferably beyond vacuous rhetoric.

If your challenge was meant to get me to provide evidence supporting evolution, I will gladly do so, but only if you'll address it and not try to hand wave it away with Creationist magical words like "Presuppositions", etc.

Since I think you know you have no actual proof, I don't think we'll have to concern ourselves with that.

 

[Kenny'sID]

This verbal judo and onus shifting might impress the kiddies, but I've been doing this a long time.

Then you should know it's not going to get us anywhere.

Are you actually saying you've been doing this a long time so you are not guilty of the verbal Judo right along with me?

 

[lesliedellow]

Since I think you know you have no actual proof, I don't think we'll have to concern ourselves with that.

Prove to me that the world wasn't created five minutes ago, with all of your memory traces in place.

There is no such thing as absolute proof - not even in mathematics, which comes closest - but there is evidence which establishes the fact beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Kenny'sID]

but there is evidence which establishes the fact beyond reasonable doubt.

Whos reasonable doubt? Let me pull one of your tricks here...Are you implying just because it is reasonable evidence to you it is to everyone?

 

[lesliedellow]

Whos reasonable doubt? Let me pull one of your tricks here...Are you implying just because it is reasonable evidence to you it is to everyone?

It is beyond reasonable doubt when the only way you can avoid drawing the obvious conclusion is to wilfully refuse reading the evidence, and you should know all about that.

 

[mmksparbud]

800 billion tons of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere means that it contributes 0.04% to the total mass of the atmosphere.

Carbon accounts for less than 2% of the mass of soil. You are seduced by big numbers.

The one that is being seduced by falsehoods is you--and when presented with the truth you prefer to deny it--your position is not true and not worth bothering with----unwatching. You may have the last word as that is what you want.


"Scientists say that more carbon resides in soil than in the atmosphere and all plant life combined;"

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

So here you have evolution; a universe coming about by means unexplainable to science bringing forth a first life that is unexplainable to science

This is a strawman. Let me ask a few questions:

1. Do you accept that organisms reproduce with variation?
2. Do you accept organisms inherit traits from their parents?
3. Do you accept that organisms with traits more suited to survive in their environment tend to reproduce more?
4. Do you accept organisms with detrimental traits are less likely to reproduce?


If you answered yes to these, congratulations, you're on your way to accepting evolution.

 

[lesliedellow]

The one that is being seduced by falsehoods is you--and when presented with the truth you prefer to deny it--your position is not true and not worth bothering with----unwatching. You may have the last word as that is what you want.


"Scientists say that more carbon resides in soil than in the atmosphere and all plant life combined;"

Chemical composition of soil in parts per million:

Oxygen 460,000
Silicon 270,000
Aluminium 82,000
Iron 63,000
Calcium 50,000
Sodium 23,000
Magnesium 29,000
Potassium 15,000

The figure you quoted may sound a lot in absolute terms, but percentage wise it doesn't even figure on the richter scale, as the above table indicates.

 

[Hoghead1]

Entirely false.
Nothing in the Bible validates evolution. Everything refutes it.
Genesis 3:19. "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
Ecclesiastes 3:20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
Psalm 104:29 You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
Psalm 90: 3 You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
Job 34:14-15 "If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust."
Isaiah 20:19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

The Bible could not be more clear; man was made from dust and from dust he will return. Evolution is a great lie. It has no relation whatever to the truth of God's word. True believers reject that man-made distortion of reality and accept the words of the Creator.

It sure seems to me that the biblical notion of humans coming from dust or mud very much parallels the evolutionary idea of life evolving out of a primordial soup. Also, remember, you are viewing Scripture through the lens created by man-made fundamentalist ideology, which can and should be seriously questioned.

 

[Hoghead1]

Not in the least. How could man be formed on day 6 and evolve over millions of years?
I have always contended that those who say they believe in both evolution and the Bible have a firm understanding of neither. They are mutually exclusive explanations for the origination of life.

According to you, no, they aren't on the ball. According to science and solid biblical scholarship, yes, they are. Sure is funny how a lay person such as yourself is so much smarter and wiser than all these scientists and biblical scholars.

 

[USincognito]

You can supply it, but he has already told us he won't read it.

Indeed. And given his responses over the last hour - responding to questions with questions, echoing my verbiage, not knowing that science doesn't deal in proof, more verbal judo but no substance - I don't think we're dealing with someone interested in honest debate.

 

[Hoghead1]

Jesus was a YEC.
As He said, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" (John 5:46-47)
Jesus spoke of Noah by name.
Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned."
There was no death before Adam and Eve sinned. If there was no death, then there could have been no evolution.
Choose your God; the Lord or Darwin. You can't serve both. One is a liar.

It's not at all a question of God or Darwin. It is a question of fundamentalist ideology or some other alternative to better understand Scripture. I vote for the latter.

 

[Hoghead1]

Have them email me and I will.
It's not a matter of liberal or conservative, wise or foolish; educated or uneducated. It's a matter of whether you put your faith in the word of God or the opinions of others. Evolution is an opinion, not a fact; despite how enthusiastically it's supporters might try to convince you otherwise.

No, it's a matter of whether you pout your faith in fundamentalist ideology or other forms of Christianity.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It is beyond reasonable doubt when the only way you can avoid drawing the obvious conclusion is to wilfully refuse reading the evidence, and you should know all about that.

Indeed. And given his responses over the last hour - responding to questions with questions, echoing my verbiage, not knowing that science doesn't deal in proof, more verbal judo but no substance - I don't think we're dealing with someone interested in honest debate.

I guess it's a lot easier to stick with that than it is to provide your proof so I'd recommend you hold on to it.

I'll not try to take your pacifier away either.

responding to questions with questions, echoing my verbiage, not knowing that science doesn't deal in proof, more verbal judo but no substance

This is all old stuff, one doesn't have to be "doing this for a long time" to know the ins and outs so don't flatter yourself, no one is echoing you, we can handle it without your help. And science absolutely does deal in proof, happens all the time. The problem lies in the people doing the science and they just don't happen to have any proof for evolution. Can't believe you actually said that...talk about your lack of substance.

 

[Hoghead1]

If Adam evolved, then the entire foundation of the Bible is a lie. Sin and death came into the world through Adam, so therefore he could not have evolved. Nothing died before him.
I understand your position. You want to be cool and believe in evolution, but you want to say you believe in the Bible.
The trouble is, the Bible is very clearly in opposition to what you believe about evolution.
You twist things in your mind, trying to blend them, but you cannot mix truth with a lie. Man cannot have been created and evolved. God could not have made the universe in six days over billions of years.
You're hiding behind the lie that ALL Scripture has to be literal for any of it to be literal.
There are metaphors and parables in the Bible, and things written clouded in mystery.
However, it's not the things which are unclear you reject.
The 6 day creation is clear. You reject it.
The story of Noah, repeated by Jesus, is clear, but you reject it.
The story of Jonah, repeated by Jesus, is clear, but you likely reject it.
How I came to believe in the Scripture is by reading it. I was taught that the earth was millions of years old. I could never find anything in the Scriptures to agree with that teaching. God said He created man, not evolution. God. The Creator. Lord. It is He you attack when you say things did not happen this way. You aren't attacking me. I didn't write the word.

Yes, you are the one being attacked here, not God or the Bible. it is your fundamentalist ideology that is under attack, not God or the Bible.

 

[Hoghead1]

Need examples of what you mean so I know exactly what you mean.

Experiment/challenge to anyone here:

Start reading at Genesis 1:1 and tell us at what verse we have to stop believing God meant exactly what he said and why.

Going on fundamentalist ideology, God dictated the Bible word for word. But there are other Christian approaches to Scripture as well. I hold that divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is still the product of a prescientific culture. God is like a good carpenter, God always works with the grain, not against it. God cannot move any faster than we are ready. Under these circumstances, it would be ridiculous to assume God had imparted advanced scientific knowledge to the biblical writers; they would not have know what to do with it. That would have been as ridiculous as expecting God to have given Columbus the plans to a nuclear sub.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes, you are the one being attacked here, not God or the Bible. it is your fundamentalist ideology that is under attack, not God or the Bible.

You mean fundamentalists views as in Adam was made from the dust of the ground, not meaning Adam was made from the dust from the Ground? All I can figure is that's what the OP meant when he made the same tired fundamentalist accusation.

If that's the case maybe you can answer...What view do you have of Gods comment he made Adam from dust?

 

[USincognito]

I guess it's a lot easier to stick with that than it is to provide your proof so I'd recommend you hold on to it.

I'll not try to take your pacifier away either.



This is all old stuff, one doesn't have to be "doing this for a long time" to know the ins and outs so don't flatter yourself, no one is echoing you, we can handle it without your help. And science absolutely does deal in proof, happens all the time. The problem lies in the people doing the science and they just don't happen to have any proof for evolution. Can't believe you actually said that...talk about your lack of substance.

Still talking about others rather showing evolution is a lie I see.

And your comment, coming from someone who has been here for two months, is hilarious.

 

[Steve Petersen]

And I said why do you care about our interpretation, as well as how do you expect any bible believing Christian to interpret Adam was made from the dust of the earth??

This is why:

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although 'they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.'"

- St. Augustine of Hippo, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book I.20.39

 

[Kenny'sID]

Going on fundamentalist ideology, God dictated the Bible word for word. But there are other Christian approaches to Scripture as well. I hold that divinely inspired as it may be, the Bible is still the product of a prescientific culture. God is like a good carpenter, God always works with the grain, not against it. God cannot move any faster than we are ready. Under these circumstances, it would be ridiculous to assume God had imparted advanced scientific knowledge to the biblical writers; they would not have know what to do with it. That would have been as ridiculous as expecting God to have given Columbus the plans to a nuclear sub.

Word for word? I seriously doubt that and what make that a fundamentalist ideal, hands down? Because you said so?

Lets take the man/dust thing for a moment...Had God, and this is just one for instance so believing it happened this way or not is irrelevant. Had God really made made from an ameba or a rock, he could have said that. They would have understood evolution. God could have just said I made this, it turned to this, and thus that, and then you. Not complicated, yet he chose to say I made man from the dust of the earth. Your reasoning simply doesn't stand up...not even close.