Adam & Eve

[sandwiches]

No. It means that this universe will not be here, and wasn't, as we know it. The fabric of the universe in a created state is different, and includes the spiritual. That means different laws, forces, fabric, and light.

So, your claim is that the state of the universe was different in the past and will be different in the future. All right.
Now, can you expand on the meaning of "created state"?

No, as the bible says, as using this world, but not abusing it.....it exists to serve us. Not us, it. Science may invent a better cleaner for my toilet, but it may not tell me that there will be no heaven.

Science is useless when talking of things it knows not of, that are too high for it, like the future universe state. Utterly useless. Worse than that, it is a hindrance to kids, because it is foisted on them as an authority on the future and creation.

Science made it possible to nuke Hiroshima. It is good and bad. But whatever it is, it is stuck in the mud of the here and now. Science never improved Adam's life. It never improved Jesus' and it can't improve our life in heaven. It is a creature of the present.

Again, you keep missing the point, making strawmen and defeating them. I never said that science should be worshiped or that we should serve science, yet you keep bringing that up. Strawman. I never said that science will get you to heaven, yet you keep bringing that up. Strawman. I never said that science can explain the spiritual, yet you keep bringing that up. Strawman.

Now, just stop inferring whatever you want to pointlessly defeat when that's not what I'm claiming. I am simply saying that should at the very least be honest and admit that science has a good track record of producing and discovering practical and useful information, in the here and now, not in some spiritual realm which doesn't have any effect on us.

They have saved mankind. They have provided a reason for life. They have inspired men to give, and heal, and help others. The knowledge of the present merely facilitates it. Like a slave should do.

Explain to me what people need to be saved from. Next, show me the data of the people who have indeed been saved through prayer or the Bible in the spiritual realm.

By the way, the dramatics aren't necessary and a more accurate word instead of "slave" would be "tool." Science is a tool like a fork or a hammer. Of course, knowing how these arguments usually go, you'll probably call those "slaves" just to drive your dramatics on.

Like this. Try it, you might like it. And until you do, you can't say one way or the other.

Like how? Try it, you say? Wow... how little you know of me. I have prayed harder and longer and with more fervor than you will probably ever do. I have begged with all my emotions, in every possible way to this god for a sign. I even tried bargaining and asking for forgiveness for my doubts. Nothing. So, trust me when I say that I can definitely say without a doubt there is nothing there.

 

[GuidanceNeeded]

How did Moses write if he's dead ?

I read that Moses wrote most of Deuteronomy and most likely Joshua took over after Moses died

Author of Deuteronomy


Christian Bible Studies -- Books of the Bible Outline

 

[pgp_protector]

I read that Moses wrote most of Deuteronomy and most likely Joshua took over after Moses died

Author of Deuteronomy


Christian Bible Studies -- Books of the Bible Outline

You read this, but posted this.

Genesis was written by Moses, as well as Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. So then I guess I should dismiss everything Moses wrote, seeing how they were not inspired by or Authored by God Himself?

Is that impossible to believe God spoke to Moses and Moses recorded what God told him?

 

[dad]

So, your claim is that the state of the universe was different in the past and will be different in the future. All right.
Now, can you expand on the meaning of "created state"?

http://geocities.com/lovecreates/split.zip

The future will see a time when the spirits also are part of our reality, and the laws of the spiritual, therefore. It will be both. How identical to the new heavens coming the created state was, who knows? It was similar, at least, if not the same. There was more at work than our present laws.

Before the fall, man was alive in the spirit, and God walked right here, and angels. The surface of the planet, where man resided and was resrtained to was cursed. But apparently the universe and laws still were in operation, allowing for long lifespans, and many differences even on the cursed earth. That is what I refer to as the created state. The true created state was of course before the fall. But even after, the earth was affected by apparently a different universe state.

Again, you keep missing the point, making strawmen and defeating them. I never said that science should be worshiped or that we should serve science, yet you keep bringing that up. Strawman. I never said that science will get you to heaven, yet you keep bringing that up. Strawman. I never said that science can explain the spiritual, yet you keep bringing that up. Strawman.

Great, then it shoulld be easy for you to keep sccience in it's little temporal place. Not only can it not get us to heaven, it is bring us to hell fast, threatening all life on earth. It will no longer apply in the new state, and did not apply iin the created state either.

Now, just stop inferring whatever you want to pointlessly defeat when that's not what I'm claiming. I am simply saying that should at the very least be honest and admit that science has a good track record of producing and discovering practical and useful information, in the here and now, not in some spiritual realm which doesn't have any effect on us.

Creation was not now, though, and this section of the forum is about the creationn evolution debate. Who cares what happens in the box of the temporal present state? Of course we get along OK, and learn our way round the box. He made it that way for us.

Explain to me what people need to be saved from. Next, show me the data of the people who have indeed been saved through prayer or the Bible in the spiritual realm.

The data is invisible, it is in the heart, on the inside. The surface show of numbers gives some idea of the impact Jesus had. Billions of believers, and even the calendar and most popular holiday on earth reflect that reality. Since Jesus, Rome ruled for a bit, it was where Christians were most populous. Later, as the gospel spread, that rule weakened, as Christians were moving. Britain became a great power, at the time, a hub of missionary activity. Later, the US became a focal point for many believers, and the spreading of the gospel, and it too saw greatness. The world powers are as dudt on the scales, and kings rise and fall according to how they fit our (His) plan, and how they react to believers, and the gospel! Thhat's what its all about. The very universe is also in the state it is because of man's reaction to Him!

By the way, the dramatics aren't necessary and a more accurate word instead of "slave" would be "tool." Science is a tool like a fork or a hammer. Of course, knowing how these arguments usually go, you'll probably call those "slaves" just to drive your dramatics on.

It can be a tool, or a master. Many fall at it's feet, and bow. Many think it will, and does give the answers to men's problems. The schools force by law and threat of jail, the anti creation fables of so called science.

Like how? Try it, you say? Wow... how little you know of me. I have prayed harder and longer and with more fervor than you will probably ever do. I have begged with all my emotions, in every possible way to this god for a sign. I even tried bargaining and asking for forgiveness for my doubts. Nothing. So, trust me when I say that I can definitely say without a doubt there is nothing there.

Hold on. If you were sincere, the answer is on the way. By the way,, faith does not come from signs at all. Jesus did lots, and most Pharisees, and people still did not believe, even when He rose Lazarus from the dead, or Himself.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The bible is endowed with magical powers for man, connecting him to a different realm. It brings faith. Like a child growing, it takes time to grow. As long as we are born of the spirit, and have asked Him for salvation, we are capable of receiving this magic.

 

[sandwiches]

http://geocities.com/lovecreates/split.zipThe future will see a time when the spirits also are part of our reality, and the laws of the spiritual, therefore. It will be both. How identical to the new heavens coming the created state was, who knows? It was similar, at least, if not the same. There was more at work than our present laws.

You know that in the future the physical will be joined with the spiritual. Is there corroborating evidence in addition to the Bible of this future joining?

Before the fall, man was alive in the spirit, and God walked right here, and angels. The surface of the planet, where man resided and was resrtained to was cursed. But apparently the universe and laws still were in operation, allowing for long lifespans, and many differences even on the cursed earth. That is what I refer to as the created state. The true created state was of course before the fall. But even after, the earth was affected by apparently a different universe state.

So, "created state" basically means the "brand new" as in "brand new universe."

Are there signs of this "created state" in existence today that can be detected and verified?

Great, then it shoulld be easy for you to keep sccience in it's little temporal place. Not only can it not get us to heaven, it is bring us to hell fast, threatening all life on earth. It will no longer apply in the new state, and did not apply iin the created state either.

You do realize that we're all in our little "temporal place," as you put it? We're all bound by time, after all.

Creation was not now, though, and this section of the forum is about the creationn evolution debate. Who cares what happens in the box of the temporal present state? Of course we get along OK, and learn our way round the box. He made it that way for us.

The data is invisible, it is in the heart, on the inside. The surface show of numbers gives some idea of the impact Jesus had. Billions of believers, and even the calendar and most popular holiday on earth reflect that reality. Since Jesus, Rome ruled for a bit, it was where Christians were most populous. Later, as the gospel spread, that rule weakened, as Christians were moving. Britain became a great power, at the time, a hub of missionary activity. Later, the US became a focal point for many believers, and the spreading of the gospel, and it too saw greatness. The world powers are as dudt on the scales, and kings rise and fall according to how they fit our (His) plan, and how they react to believers, and the gospel! Thhat's what its all about. The very universe is also in the state it is because of man's reaction to Him!

So the data cannot be seen, analyzed, observed, or in any other way detected by anyone but yourself. How is this "data" any different from any of your other wishful thoughts?

So, because a lot of people support Christianity, that makes it true? If Islam, one day, became the most popular religion, as it may very well do some day, would you accept the number of Muslims as proof that it is the true religion?

It can be a tool, or a master. Many fall at it's feet, and bow. Many think it will, and does give the answers to men's problems. The schools force by law and threat of jail, the anti creation fables of so called science.

Another question regarding this. Do you believe scientists are deliberately making up things in regards to evolution?

Hold on. If you were sincere, the answer is on the way. By the way,, faith does not come from signs at all. Jesus did lots, and most Pharisees, and people still did not believe, even when He rose Lazarus from the dead, or Himself.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God. The bible is endowed with magical powers for man, connecting him to a different realm. It brings faith. Like a child growing, it takes time to grow. As long as we are born of the spirit, and have asked Him for salvation, we are capable of receiving this magic.

Well, I guess I may have to way another 13 years or so as the sign, faith, or voice of has never come. By the way, god expressed to a lot of people in the Bible in the form of lights, burning bush, booming voice, etc. Why couldn't he do that with me?

 

[Assyrian]

Hey, possiblky there really wasd a real Adam and a real Eve, and all the listed descendents after them were real, historical people! Just that Adam and Eve both had parents who, for whatever reason, were left off the list....

So God is a liar according to you, He never formed man from the dust of the earth. OK. Not like you know squat about Adam anyhow, so it is your word against God's.

You are really going to have to get out of that calling God a liar habbit, otherwise you are going to be pretty embarrassed one day when you find out it was really your word against God's. Anyway, you were talking about comparing scripture to scripture. Is it only with Adam that God would be a liar if he wasn't made from dust? What about all the other people in the bible who say they were made of dust, or that God molded them from clay like a potter?

Gen 18:27Abraham answered and said, "Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes.
Psalm 103:14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
Eccles 3:20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.
1Cor 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust,

Job 10:9 Remember that you have made me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?
Job 33:6 Behold, I am toward God as you are; I too was pinched off from a piece of clay.
Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, "He did not make me"; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, "He has no understanding"?
Isaiah 45:9 "Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?' or 'Your work has no handles'?
Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Jer 18:6 "O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

Is God a liar if Paul and Jeremiah and Isaiah and the whole nation of Israel, Job and Elihu, Solomon and David and Abraham weren't literally made from dust or molded from clay by God's hands but actually had a biological father and a mother?

 

[dad]

You know that in the future the physical will be joined with the spiritual. Is there corroborating evidence in addition to the Bible of this future joining?

Do you know of any science that is able to go there and collaborate squat?! Don't blame us. Poor little science.

So, "created state" basically means the "brand new" as in "brand new universe."

It means different. The universe we know is a temporal one, and not the whole created universe that was to last forever. We are in a physical only one.

Are there signs of this "created state" in existence today that can be detected and verified?

The far past and future state is beyond science. However, the spiritual is the main difference, and that is well known. It has been observed, and known through all time. It's effects are known well even today, when the spiritual is separate. Like a two way mirror, they can come here, we can't go there while alive. Unless God takes you on a trip.

You do realize that we're all in our little "temporal place," as you put it? We're all bound by time, after all.


So the data cannot be seen, analyzed, observed, or in any other way detected by anyone but yourself. How is this "data" any different from any of your other wishful thoughts?

No, the spiritual is known by most. The bible and history I did not invent, the differences are right there. Science is just on the sidelines. What a scream.

[/quote]So, because a lot of people support Christianity, that makes it true? If Islam, one day, became the most popular religion, as it may very well do some day, would you accept the number of Muslims as proof that it is the true religion?[/quote] The spiritual in the various good and bad incarnations is real. That does not make it true. If a man was possessed by a devil, that does not make him true.

Another question regarding this. Do you believe scientists are deliberately making up things in regards to evolution?

No, although some may stretch things in their desired viewpoint a bit if they could. They are simply only looking at a little part of the picture, and utterly incapable of arriving at a balanced and actual view of the past or future.

Well, I guess I may have to way another 13 years or so as the sign, faith, or voice of has never come. By the way, god expressed to a lot of people in the Bible in the form of lights, burning bush, booming voice, etc. Why couldn't he do that with me?

Why would He? You have the bible. The Christians passed on the record and testified of what they saw, and felt, and touched, and heard. Burning bushes do not create faith. The word does. Hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is not how many push ups we do, or how much we give to the poor, or how great and long we pray. It is a gift.

 

[sandwiches]

Do you know of any science that is able to go there and collaborate squat?! Don't blame us. Poor little science.

Is there ANY corroborating evidence, yes or no?

It means different. The universe we know is a temporal one, and not the whole created universe that was to last forever. We are in a physical only one.

Is there ANY remaining evidence for this "created universe"?

The far past and future state is beyond science. However, the spiritual is the main difference, and that is well known. It has been observed, and known through all time. It's effects are known well even today, when the spiritual is separate. Like a two way mirror, they can come here, we can't go there while alive. Unless God takes you on a trip.

Well known in what way? How can we use this information? Not tomorrow, not yesterday, but right now. How can we use this spiritual information NOW.

List some of these well-known effects and evidence of them.

No, the spiritual is known by most. The bible and history I did not invent, the differences are right there. Science is just on the sidelines. What a scream.

The spiritual in the various good and bad incarnations is real. That does not make it true. If a man was possessed by a devil, that does not make him true.

As you like to evade my questions, let em rephrase this one:
You used the amount of Christian believers and the Christian holidays as evidence of how "real" the spiritual power of Christianity is. So, again, if Muslims outnumbered Christians would that mean that Islam's spiritual power is real?

Also, again, if this evidence only exists in your mind, how is this any different from any other feeling or thought?

No, although some may stretch things in their desired viewpoint a bit if they could. They are simply only looking at a little part of the picture, and utterly incapable of arriving at a balanced and actual view of the past or future.

So, you're saying that scientists are basing their assumptions of ONLY what they can observe, test, examine, and detect and somehow that's incomplete to you.

Why would He? You have the bible. The Christians passed on the record and testified of what they saw, and felt, and touched, and heard. Burning bushes do not create faith. The word does. Hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is not how many push ups we do, or how much we give to the poor, or how great and long we pray. It is a gift.

God knows what it'll take to convert me back to Christianity yet he refuses to help me go to heaven and he instead lets me go to hell. That's a horrible god. Thank goodness it's all make believe.

 

[iremouth]

The Christians passed on the record and testified of what they saw, and felt, and touched, and heard. Burning bushes do not create faith. The word does. Hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is not how many push ups we do, or how much we give to the poor, or how great and long we pray. It is a gift.

Dad are you lucky you were raised a Christian, I hope you realise how lucky you were, do you feel even a little bit sorry for all of those unfortunates who were raised to believe in other religions? surly you must? it's not their fault if they were born in countries that were not Christian, all I can say is lucky you, lucky lucky you, it would seem God only looks favourably on Christians, all of those billions who have never heard the word.

 

[BRISH]

Kudos to you for having the humility and intellectual honesty to admit that to us and most importantly to yourself. It's unfortunately a very rare occurance these days to see those two admirable traits among creationists. I must admit I can't think of previous instances, despite having been on these boards for years.




That's fair enough. But if you one day have the time and curiosity to hear more about the evidence that points to that conclusion, there are many knowledgable people here who will be happy to help. But be prepared that much work and reading will be involved if you want to understand the evidence. Science doesn't offer the simplistic and easy to grasp answers that religions do. Reality isn't as simple as most of us would like.


(----> Thanks for the compliments. They are compliments to me. I'm learning very quickly that this is a very well versed/researched group of people on here. I realize also that alot of what I believe is what was told to me growing up, without alot of concrete evidence. For that, I am excited to make this area of lacking, a goal now. I do want to point out that I may have been raised to believe certain things, but I very much rebelled against it for years. I went through a phase where I didnt want to follow a path that was set out by my parents or authority figures. I felt pressured and obligated. I grew tired of it after leaving home, and made it a goal to do the opposite. What I believe now, is what I have grown to accept after many observations of life's trials, various outcomes from different decisions/reactions. I have finally come to conclusions of my own, and they are what I state. It's mentioned somewhere on here about the spirit, and how it "completes" the faith? It's one thing to believe and proclaim because it's what you are taught, it's another to believe because you see and feel it. It's something I can not explain, nor will I ever be able to. I will only be able to relate to others in this area that have experienced the same thing, and encourage others to just try it.

I love psychology, and I'll admit that mindset has alot to do with it. BUT, sometimes mindset is formed from experience, not vice versa.

There's no way to explain it. I wish I could.)




I don't know. The only belief I hold regarding this question is that my lack of knowledge is shared by every single person on this planet. I'm simply among the minority who admits ignorance about this question where everyone is ignorant, and I consider the people who claim to know the answer to such an unknowable question to be lacking in humility, failing to realize their own limits as human beings.

(----> Or perhaps raising their limits as human beings by believing in something. I personally feel there are worse things to put time and effort into where the outcome is a gamble. With this? Is there really anything to lose, if it's not true?)




Glad to hear it.




That is interesting. Not having been brought up to believe in such things I'll probably never come to truly understand such religious feelings and biases.

(---->I dont believe in "religion". I state a certain denomination, but really I am of a non-demoninational belief. Religion to me is misleading and misleads. There's faith. The bible is translated, but who knows really how correctly or for what reasons. All I can reply is that I've experienced some amazing things when I WASN'T in the psychological mindset of expecting it.

*shrug* *smile*)

 

[dad]

Is there ANY corroborating evidence, yes or no?

For any state future? No. For any state past? No. Science is too puny.

Is there ANY remaining evidence for this "created universe"?

All of it! It is what is left of the created universe, in a temporal state now, for our benefit.

Well known in what way? How can we use this information? Not tomorrow, not yesterday, but right now. How can we use this spiritual information NOW.

How is the spiritual known? The Egyptians claimed early rulers were gods, spiritual beings, if I recall. Spirits are a part of every culture from the getgo. Most still believe in angels and spirits of some sort. How can we use spirits? Many ways. God's spirit can protect us, educate us, inspire us, and etc etc.



Post too long, I'll do the rest later

 

[iremouth]

For any state future? No. For any state past? No. Science is too puny.

At last we understand, we are too puny to know the truth, only you oh mighty one can show us the way because you have been given the knowledge to guide us, without you we are nothing we are lost, please please please, show us the way we beg you.

 

[dad]

At last we understand, we are too puny to know the truth, only you oh mighty one can show us the way because you have been given the knowledge to guide us, without you we are nothing we are lost, please please please, show us the way we beg you.

If you are little in your own eyes, that is a start. Of course science is puny.

 

[iremouth]

Of course science is puny.

I am sure we can be forgiven for not taking the word of a religious fanatic, you may have your supernatural mental God and puny science only have brains and evidence on it's side, we will stick with puny science thank you very much, what if you should change your mind about your God? where would we all be then? not that I think you will change your mind because you have invested too much of your life in it to stop now whatever your true feelings might be, you're commited till the day you die, which means you will never give truth a chance, oh dear how sad never mind.

 

[uke2se]

For any state future? No. For any state past? No. Science is too puny.

Let me adress this, as I've asked it before and you've never answered:

If, as you say, there is no evidence either way, and our entire culture and knowledge is based on what you call a "same state past", and that knowledge translates into science which works, why, oh your god, why, would anyone think there's any different states? Doesn't the fact that you're the only one - THE ONLY ONE - talking about "states" count as a clue that you're horribly and probably incurably insane? I pity you and your relatives, but I feel that you should be locked away for the safety of those around you, as what you are posting here is the very defenition of clinical insanity.

 

[dad]

I am sure we can be forgiven for not taking the word of a religious fanatic, you may have your supernatural mental God and puny science only have brains and evidence on it's side, we will stick with puny science thank you very much, what if you should change your mind about your God?

If I change my mind about God it still cannot help your fanatical religion of the godless state past! Especially if you call it science, no less, and force it on kids! That is a little harder to forgive than having a belief that is well founded, and covers an area outside the reaches of actual knowledge and science.


Where you are right now is in an untenable position of building a house of cards on a shifting foundation. You may pint to the large card house, all designed to fit as best they can,, but I look at the wonky and baseless foundation it sits on. God will huff and puff, and blow that house down one day. Poof.

Forget me, and my ideas, just prove the same state future that is required to fry out our universe as science predicts!

They that rest soley on a fantasy foundation they cannot come to a debate forum or anywhere else, and support ought not to throw stones.

 

[dad]

Let me adress this, as I've asked it before and you've never answered:

If, as you say, there is no evidence either way, and our entire culture and knowledge is based on what you call a "same state past", and that knowledge translates into science which works, why, oh your god, why, would anyone think there's any different states?

That's easy. Got any tough ones?? Nothing ever, anywhere was or is based on a same state past that works or does squat. No science rests on that at all! You are dreaming. Name me one actual bit of science that depends on either a same state past, or future!?

There are a few areas, where uniformitarianism was thought to have helped. They were dead wrong. Like the strata, and fossil records. They simply started with the assumption of a same state , and built up from there. Easy as pie to jerk the rug out of that nonsense.

Doesn't the fact that you're the only one - THE ONLY ONE - talking about "states" count as a clue that you're horribly and probably incurably insane?

No. It means I happened to be first to deduce what should have been the obvious. Dirty job, but someone has to do it.

Now, rather than call people crazy for not agreeing with a foundational error, that is unsupportable, you need to deal with it! Calling others crazy won't get you that safe place, away from the facts. It won't make your exposed so called science joke look any better. No matter how hmbling, it is better to deal with it, and try to move on. You are starting to sound a little shrill, and dangerously jealous over your belief system. Take a deep breath. Admit defeat, and seek help. We're rooting for ya.

 

[iremouth]

A quick sidestep dad,
what is your explanation of how most cliffs have hundreds of different layers of different types of rocks?

 

[dad]

A quick sidestep dad,
what is your explanation of how most cliffs have hundreds of different layers of different types of rocks?

Layers were laid down fast in the different state past. But it depends on the cliff, as mountain building happened largely around the time of the fast continental spread as well. Depends what cliff.

 

[iremouth]

Layers were laid down fast in the different state past. But it depends on the cliff, as mountain building happened largely around the time of the fast continental spread as well. Depends what cliff.

And how do you know this? could it be that this is what you need to have happened in order to make your bible stories work? none of it is true but you try to convince yourself it is in order for you to remain a creationist, good luck.

We all know you are too far gone to care either way and that we are only answering you for the sake of the lurkers, if there were no lurkers you would have been dismissed as a fool a long long time ago, I have gathered that much even though I have only been here not much more than a month.