Adam & Eve: Original Entrapment

[heron]

Look at what the sins listed usually were, though.

"Yes, there are wicked men among my people, who watch like fowlers on the alert; they set traps and they catch human beings. Like a cage full of birds, so are their houses full of loot; they have grown richa nd powerful because of it;
they are fat, they are sleek, in wickedness they go to any lengths: they have no respect for rights, for orphans' rights, and yet they succeed.! They have not upheld the cause of the needy. Shall I fail to punish this, Yahweh demands...Horrible, disgusting things are happening in the land: the prophets prophecy falsely and the priests exploit the people. And my people love it!"

Jeremiah 5:26-31

 

[CPman2004]

If you single out one toy that you forbid him to play with, yes, that is bait. You are drawing attention to that one toy. A child's curiosity will make them want to investigate this "taboo" toy.

It wasn't baiting, it was a test. A test to see if they would choose to obey God and follow him only on His words, or they would follow their own thinking, their own judgement, and their own reasons. They did not choose to obey God, but to follow their own reasons, thus they sinned.

The Tree in the Garden is as much of a test as an academic one. For example, you have a test that you are taking, and you are to the final question and it is a true/false question. Now the Teacher said earlier that the answer is clearly false, but you friend wisphers to you that the answer is true. Your friend makes some since, but still the teacher did say the answer was false. Then you start to think, "maybe the teacher was wrong on that question, the answer is really true, not false." So you mark true. Of course the teacher will mark it wrong, and you then realize that that question alone accounted for much of your grade, and you fail the test. Was the Teacher baiting the student with the right and wrong answer? Nope, it was a test to see rather or not the student would trust in the teacher or himself. The students of the Garden choose the wrong answer when they choose based on the testimony of Satan and their own reasoning, not based on the trustworthiness of the Teacher aka: God.

 

[parousia70]

My son LOVES Chocloate cake.

So much so that he will not touch any other kind of cake.

If I put one piece each of carrot cake, angel food cake, coffee cake and chocloate cake in front of him and ask him to choose one to eat, I know with 100% certainty that he will choose the chocloate cake, yet that choice remains 100% his, regardless of my forknowledge of the outcome.

 

[rebel_conservative]

How were they to know that disobeying god was wrong? They couldn’t.

ignorance of the law is no defence

How then was it fair for god to punish them for this “sin”? If this was supposed to be a test of obedience, I hardly think it was a fair test.

Please explain!

why was it not a fair test?
"don't eat the fruit of this tree"
it is not exactly difficult

 

[JookieRed]

Look at what the sins listed usually were, though.

"Yes, there are wicked men among my people, who watch like fowlers on the alert; they set traps and they catch human beings. Like a cage full of birds, so are their houses full of loot; they have grown richa nd powerful because of it;
they are fat, they are sleek, in wickedness they go to any lengths: they have no respect for rights, for orphans' rights, and yet they succeed.! They have not upheld the cause of the needy. Shall I fail to punish this, Yahweh demands...Horrible, disgusting things are happening in the land: the prophets prophecy falsely and the priests exploit the people. And my people love it!"

Jeremiah 5:26-31

Meaningless. My father could have been the craziest, thieving, axe-murdering rapist that ever lived. Does that mean that I should pay for his crimes? What about my children? Nope.

 

[JookieRed]

It wasn't baiting, it was a test. A test to see if they would choose to obey God and follow him only on His words, or they would follow their own thinking, their own judgement, and their own reasons. They did not choose to obey God, but to follow their own reasons, thus they sinned.

The Tree in the Garden is as much of a test as an academic one. For example, you have a test that you are taking, and you are to the final question and it is a true/false question. Now the Teacher said earlier that the answer is clearly false, but you friend wisphers to you that the answer is true. Your friend makes some since, but still the teacher did say the answer was false. Then you start to think, "maybe the teacher was wrong on that question, the answer is really true, not false." So you mark true. Of course the teacher will mark it wrong, and you then realize that that question alone accounted for much of your grade, and you fail the test. Was the Teacher baiting the student with the right and wrong answer? Nope, it was a test to see rather or not the student would trust in the teacher or himself. The students of the Garden choose the wrong answer when they choose based on the testimony of Satan and their own reasoning, not based on the trustworthiness of the Teacher aka: God.

What if that final question was "True or False. The grass is usually purple. Oh, and I'm letting you know in advance that the answer is True."

The test could be to see if you would blindly accept the words of an authority figure or use your own sound reasoning to make your decision.

Hey, maybe the entire Bible is just a test! On judgement day, God is going to gather all the free-thinkers and say "Geez! I can't believe so many people fell for that bible trick. Congratulations. You all are the only ones who got it right. Come on in!!!"

 

[JookieRed]

My son LOVES Chocloate cake.

So much so that he will not touch any other kind of cake.

If I put one piece each of carrot cake, angel food cake, coffee cake and chocloate cake in front of him and ask him to choose one to eat, I know with 100% certainty that he will choose the chocloate cake, yet that choice remains 100% his, regardless of my forknowledge of the outcome.

You know this based on past experience involving your son and cake, so it's not quite the same.

The free will argument is moot anyway. The previous post about god existing outside of linear time (even though this is only assumption and not based on anything concrete) pretty much ended that discussion. I can't exactly prove or disprove something like that. Besides, the concept of non-linear time is kind of cool. Almost sounds like something Einstein would have come up with.

So I concede on this one. God "could" know the future and still give us free will. It still doesn't make the bible any more believable though.

 

[heron]

Meaningless. My father could have been the craziest, thieving, axe-murdering rapist that ever lived. Does that mean that I should pay for his crimes? What about my children? Nope.

The verse was posted to give a general view of what God considers sin...I had drifted away from the original sin discussion.

My reason--the word "sin" is used so often to imply irrational imposition from religious leaders. In some cases, it is. But what the writer refers to above is oppression, injustice, blind greed, and negligence...things that we have laws against now.

Being expelled from the Garden--we don't even know what we were missing. Maybe I'm expelled from visiting Atlantis, too, but life goes on. God doesn't remind me every day that somewhere along the family line, someone offended an Atlantis magistrate and blew it for any future travelers. And I have plenty of other places to go.

Do you really feel like you missed out on something?

Pay for Adam's and Eve's crimes...technically, Jesus did that.

 

[humblemuslim]

I have a seperate question regarding Adam and Eve:

If you honestly take the Adam and Eve story seriously and literally and take from it that all humanity came from them then you would have to consider the following. Humanity was spawned by incest. There isn't anyway we could be here today if Adam and Eve started it all, solely, without incest (Espeically since from a christian point of view this "Original Sin" is being passed by Adam's seed I believe, isn't it?). Does this then suggest incest is Ok? It is obvious many people detest to it, and regard it as disgusting and immoral. Also if this were the case (That we all originated from a single pair of humans) then no matter who we had relations with it would techniquely be incest. Would it not?

Any thoughts and responses would be grateful.

Thanks

Peace

 

[rebel_conservative]

I have a seperate question regarding Adam and Eve:

If you honestly take the Adam and Eve story seriously and literally and take from it that all humanity came from them then you would have to consider the following. Humanity was spawned by incest. There isn't anyway we could be here today if Adam and Eve started it all, solely, without incest (Espeically since from a christian point of view this "Original Sin" is being passed by Adam's seed I believe, isn't it?). Does this then suggest incest is Ok? It is obvious many people detest to it, and regard it as disgusting and immoral. Also if this were the case (That we all originated from a single pair of humans) then no matter who we had relations with it would techniquely be incest. Would it not?

Any thoughts and responses would be grateful.

Thanks

Peace

incest was not prohibited until Moses received the Law. for example, Sarah was Abraham's half-sister. the problems with incest - genetic disorders - is due to bad genes (caused by mutations) that both with have and will pass on to their child. Adam and Eve were perfect, no mutations. incest was not a genetic problem until mutations developed and built up after a number of generations. incest is forbidden today because of the increased risk of passing on bad genes.

 

[Rafael]

Meaningless. My father could have been the craziest, thieving, axe-murdering rapist that ever lived. Does that mean that I should pay for his crimes? What about my children? Nope.

Your father wasn't Adam, the father of all men. Nor do you bear responsibility for the decisions your father made based on the knowledge given him. God gives each man a decision, that each bears their own responsibility for. Judgment, by God, is given according to the knowledge He gives them, although many will claim foul, that they did not know what was right. He says that He will open the books and have the ability to show where they were wrong and decided to go against Him and the light given all men, as the Bible says all men know that God exists by His creation, and that they know right from wrong, to a certain degree, instinctually.

Romans 1:8 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves.
19 ¶ For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.
20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.

2:14 Even when Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong.
15 They demonstrate that God’s law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.
16 The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone’s secret life. This is my message.

 

[Rafael]

I have a seperate question regarding Adam and Eve:

If you honestly take the Adam and Eve story seriously and literally and take from it that all humanity came from them then you would have to consider the following. Humanity was spawned by incest. There isn't anyway we could be here today if Adam and Eve started it all, solely, without incest (Espeically since from a christian point of view this "Original Sin" is being passed by Adam's seed I believe, isn't it?). Does this then suggest incest is Ok? It is obvious many people detest to it, and regard it as disgusting and immoral. Also if this were the case (That we all originated from a single pair of humans) then no matter who we had relations with it would techniquely be incest. Would it not?

Any thoughts and responses would be grateful.

Thanks

Peace

If you read the Bible, when does the law come into being? It is long after the genetic poole that was started from a perfect man has been corrupted by the ageing of time caused by death, and then even by the fallen angels who followed after satan. Even scientists can see how this could very well have been, considering what the Bible says of that which was perfect and eternal when first coming into this world and then beginning the process of dying. Look how many years Adam lived (930) and then think of the number of his offspring and how long they lived before the affect of death degenerated man into the three score and ten spoken of later on in scripture. You forget the effect of time and death upon that which started as eternal.

 

[Rafael]

What if that final question was "True or False. The grass is usually purple. Oh, and I'm letting you know in advance that the answer is True."

The test could be to see if you would blindly accept the words of an authority figure or use your own sound reasoning to make your decision.

Hey, maybe the entire Bible is just a test! On judgement day, God is going to gather all the free-thinkers and say "Geez! I can't believe so many people fell for that bible trick. Congratulations. You all are the only ones who got it right. Come on in!!!"

Your statement shows you have not read the Bible or considered the commandments of God as good - that we are to be motivated by love and be servants to each other instead of the opposite. Your portrayal of God as a deceiver isn't really amusing, but quit prophetic in that the devil would be most glad to say the same thing and have you believe it, as He is God's antithesis that defines what is opposite of God - providing the same choice today that was given in the garden in a round about way. The serpent questioned God's word in the garden, too, causing doubt as to the veracity of His word. We align ourselves either with God or against Him, as the scripture says there is no middle ground.

Mt 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

 

[JookieRed]

I appreciate everyone's responses. However, I would like to end this thread. This was one of my first posts and I didn't realize that we aren't really supposed to debate here.

I will start a new thread in the Gen. Apol. section along these same lines. raphe, I hope to see you there.

JR

 

[ragdolly]

When god made Adam and Eve, they were as pure and innocent as children. They had no concept of right or wrong, good or evil. The only way they could gain this knowledge was to eat from the forbidden tree. Why did god put the tree there in the first place? Bait?

So along comes a serpent that talks Eve into eating the fruit. She gets Adam to eat it and BAM, mankind is cursed forever. Huh?

How were they to know that disobeying god was wrong? They couldn’t. How then was it fair for god to punish them for this “sin”? If this was supposed to be a test of obedience, I hardly think it was a fair test.

Please explain!

God told them that if they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge that they would surely die. Not knowing was no excuse.