Adam, Eve, and Evolution

[tonychanyt]

You want a narrative as a reference?

How about The Preservation of Favoured Races, by C. R. Darwin?

Thanks for the references. To save the effort of your readers, this is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Give the source/citation.
2. Provide the URL link to the source if available.
3. Indent the quoted text.
4. Bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making.
5. Be concise and to the point.

This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you it will improve your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it here.

 

[parousia70]

Thanks for the references. To save the effort of your readers, this is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Give the source/citation.
2. Provide the URL link to the source if available.
3. Indent the quoted text.
4. Bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making.
5. Be concise and to the point.

This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you it will improve your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it here.

You asked for evidence, I gave it. If you require extra schoolyard hoops for me to jump through before you can comprehend the real world evidence I gave, just say so.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

any reference?

Father Chad Ripperger, The Metaphysics of Evolution is a good book to start.
Simply review any article that purports to prove evolution. See the language that they use. Give me your favorite evolution article and we can go over it.

Scientific materialism and evolution fail because they completely discard God and design. They flatly refuse to accept it, so they will never find Him. It’s like someone that lost a 20 dollar bill and looks everywhere except his right pocket where it is located because he says he knows it’s not there.
I have seen an article by cosmologists that says they took a photo of space and digitally subtract the light from all the stars and the sun, and the universe still had a discernible glow. They can’t explain it, but any Bible believer would know that it is the light left over from the first day, before God made the Sun and the stars on the fourth day, but y’all think we are just a bunch of wackos so whatever.

https://esahubble.org/images/opo22050a/

They don’t know what it is and can’t detect anything but start speculating about comets and dust. It reads like a joke. Why don’t you just say that you don’t know what it is? I think of these scientists in the observatory talking like this

Read, I mean actually read Galileo’s data. He did show that a moon goes around Jupiter and Venus goes around the Sun, but it is a mathematical model and extrapolation to say the earth does the same. The movement of the Earth cannot be proven observationally, but we are lead to believe that it has. That fact is not admitted. My third grade girl brings home an English assignment that says that Galileo proved that the Earth goes around the Sun. That is false and a misrepresentation of the data. You can believe that the Earth goes around the Sun, but that cannot be proven by observational data. Scientists today say that any point in the universe can be the center, so what’s the big deal if creationists view it as earth? We know it’s not flat because that can be shown observationally, but not it’s motion nor orbit.

Where is the center of the universe?

According to all current observations, there is no center to the universe. For a center point to exist, that point would have to somehow be special...

www.wtamu.edu

It is not the universe that is non rotating, it is the Earth, and that cannot be disproven observationally

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Further references from a simple Google search

Comparing the human and chimpanzee genomes: searching for needles in a haystack - PubMed

The chimpanzee genome sequence is a long-awaited milestone, providing opportunities to explore primate evolution and genetic contributions to human physiology and disease. Humans and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor approximately 5-7 million years ago (Mya). The difference between the two...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I was mistaken, chimps and humans at 4% different according to this article. It does mention the 35million base pair differences

It claims a common ancestor but cannot prove it or admit the it does not exist, even with the 35 million n differences, which are impossible to make by random chance. We can’t even get five numbers plus one to get 600 million dollars and you want us to believe that 35 million differences happened slowly over the years. I’ll even spot you the four billion years but the odds are still not in your favor.

It requires more faith for evolution than to believe that chimps and humans were designed by a creator.

Read the Principle of the Integral Good, also by Fr Chad Ripperger

 

[tonychanyt]

You asked for evidence, I gave it. If you require extra schoolyard hoops for me to jump through before you can comprehend the real world evidence I gave, just say so.

I prefer to argue with scholarly people.

 

[tonychanyt]

Father Chad Ripperger, The Metaphysics of Evolution is a good book to start.

Thanks for the references. To save the effort of your readers, this is how to do referencing in a scholarly manner:

1. Give the source/citation.
2. Provide the URL link to the source if available.
3. Indent the quoted text.
4. Bold the relevant keywords that are important to the point that you are making.
5. Be concise and to the point.

This is what I do for others who read my posts. It is a standard high-school scholarship. If you practice this, I guarantee you it will improve your analytical thinking. In any case, no one is required to do it here.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

There's a girl in our church who did the same thing.

She's an RN now.

In spite of her evolution training -- not with respect to it.

Yeah I went to med school 30 years ago, and I had to keep quiet because I would start arguments, yet remain scientific, but they would degenerate into belief fights because the only evolutionists could not hold their position

My pain medicine doc at the time tried to at least have a discussion and we talked about evolution. He told me to read the book Bright Air, Brilliant Fire, which I did that weekend, and I found several logical flaws which I wanted to discuss with him, but all he said was you are a voracious reader and changed the subject.

I found several evolutionists behave the same when we don’t buckle under their propaganda and have valid objections to their claims, they end the conversation. I was in an anesthesia interview with the chairman of Anesthesia at Massachusetts General Hospital, and he asked me about evidence based medicine. I said that I love to follow evidence and I don’t believe that random mutation is sufficient to prove the diversity of species we see today. He didn’t want to talk just ended the interview, but he called me at home and offered me a residency, but Inturned him down. Other guy in our clsss would just get an evil look on his face if you questioned evolution or socialism.
I am glad that I found the scientists at the Discovery Institute where I can at least talk about data and not have to subject myself to a propaganda session or shouting match

The pursuit of truth is hard but feels much better than going along to get along

 

[AV1611VET]

My pain medicine doc at the time tried to at least have a discussion and we talked about evolution.

My ophthalmologist has a very successful business, and he is a YEC.

I'm thankful that you were able to shed that "excess baggage" and move forward in your career.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

My ophthalmologist has a very successful business, and he is a YEC.

I'm thankful that you were able to shed that "excess baggage" and move forward in your career.

Only by the grace of God

 

[Diamond7]

Near the end of the last deglaciation, around 13,000 years ago, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden

Adam and Eve lived in Eden 6,000 years ago. Science can verify the geologies in the Bible.

 

[Betho]

The Scriptures make it clear that no one can lie in the real presence of God. Therefore, it is certain that Adam did not lie to God. When God gave the command to Adam in Genesis 2:16-17 not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Eve had not yet been created (Genesis 2:21-22). The Scriptures do not detail how Eve received the command, whether through Adam or directly from God. However, Eve makes several errors by allowing the cunning Serpent to engage her in a theological discussion about God's command.

Genesis 3:3 presents God's words to Adam:

a) "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God said, 'You shall not eat it'" (the tree in the middle of the garden being the Tree of Life, as seen in Genesis 2:9)

b) "nor shall you touch it, lest you die" (God did not mention this in Genesis 2:16-17).

After Eve is completely deceived regarding God's command, the Serpent uses the same phrase spoken to Adam but with a negation particle to further confuse Eve: "You will not surely die." Comparing Genesis 3:3 with Genesis 2:17 reveals that Eve was deceived by the Serpent. This is also confirmed in the New Testament Scriptures, as indicated in 2 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2:14.

Eve, having been deceived by the Serpent, encounters an unspecified tree in Genesis 3:6 that "was good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and desirable to make one wise." Without any conscience burden, Eve eats the fruit. It is not reported whether Adam was near the tree, only that he received the fruit from Eve, who is now in the condition of knowing good and evil, akin to the gods (Genesis 3:22).

Thus, as mentioned at the beginning of this article, no creature can lie before the Creator and therefore the entire account of Genesis 3:11-14 is true. In Genesis 3:13, Eve admits, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” In fact, the Serpent cunningly altered the position of the trees in Eve's mind in relation to God's order. Adam's mistake was listening to the voice of a deceived and deified Eve, manipulated by the Serpent's cunning in relation to the forbidden fruit, thus disrespecting the order received from God.

Genesis 2:15 NET "The Lord God took the man and placed him in the orchard in Eden to care for it and to maintain it." Heb “to work it and to keep it.”sn Note that man’s task is to care for and maintain the trees of the orchard. Not until after the fall, when he is condemned to cultivate the soil, does this task change. Adam was obliged not to eat the fruits of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Eva misleadingly claimed that the fruit was not forbidden. Despite Adam's awareness of the forbidden nature of the fruit, he chose to heed Eva, who asserted that it was an allowed fruit, rather than obeying God's command.

The Book of Genesis presents two distinct narratives about the figure of Adam. In the first chapter, Adam is portrayed as a physical-evolutionary being, shaped over the ages. This Adam represents humanity in its totality, evolving and adapting over time.

However, the second chapter of Genesis introduces us to a different view. Here, Adam is described as a metaphysical being, the first of its kind in the ages. This Adam symbolizes the spiritual essence of humanity, transcending physical limitations.

Therefore, we have two interpretations of Adam in Genesis - one physical and evolutionary, and the other metaphysical and transcendental. Although they seem different at first glance, both are essential to understand the complexity of human existence as portrayed in the Bible.

 

[tonychanyt]

It is not reported whether Adam was near the tree, only that he received the fruit from Eve

Thanks for sharing.

See Where was Adam when the serpent was talking with Eve? and follow up there.

 

[Diamond7]

both are essential to understand the complexity of human existence as portrayed in the Bible.

Science helps us a lot with this. Esp when they talk about food gathers becoming food producers. Adam and Eve were the first husband and wife, the first man and women compared to make and female. This was the beginning of civilization and the produce from Eden is eaten all over the world today.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I should preamble this by saying that the following is all my speculation.

From the scientific perspective in terms of space-time, God created the earth with evolutionary events, including dinosaurs, Neanderthals, etc., embedded in it. Homo sapiens neanderthalensis became extinct around 40,000 years ago. Homo sapiens sapiens replaced them. The unusual fact is that of all the dozens of homo (human) species that existed, home sapiens (sapiens) is the only one surviving today.

Today's humans, Adam, Eve, and so on, anatomically belong to Homo sapiens. Both Neanderthals and we have 46 chromosomes, though there is some uncertainty about that. Neanderthals existed only in space-time and not in witnessed-time; as such, they never received a breath of God in their spirits. They would not be judged to go to heaven or hell. The last ice age maximum happened about 20,000 years ago. That's before Adam and Eve. The difference between the (space-time) homo sapiens and the descendants of Adam and Eve is that the latter are capable of languages with advanced complex grammar.

From the biblical point of view, God created Adam and Eve in witnessed-time as described in Genesis. Acts 17:


In terms of first-order logic, both perspectives are true: witnessed-time and space-time. Both are real. Scientists found 46,000-year-old roundworms alive beneath the Arctic ice.

Near the end of the last deglaciation, around 13,000 years ago, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden, and they entered the backdrop of the Neolithic Age of Mesopotamia. Physical evidence indicates that farming started around 12,000 years ago and humans domesticated sheep around 10,000 years ago. Cain was a farmer. Abel was a shepherd.

Was there evidence of deaths before Adam and Eve sinned?

From the point of view of witnessd-time, no. From the point of view of space-time, probably yes, or else God could have done the embedding after he cursed the ground. In either case, there was no evidence of deaths in the Garden of Eden before they sinned.

See also How old is the earth?.

I am not one to beat a drum loudly on origins. I can articulate what I believe, but what I believe and the biologists believe are all faith-based. Can someone believe in evolution and still be Christian? That is a question only God can answer.

From a theological perspective, believing in macroevolution reduces God to being only a super being because he loses his omnipotence. It also throws a monkey wrench into His being a logical entity since He used predation, violence, self-centeredness, and death to create a being; He then commands to love even its enemies. So Christianity becomes somewhat of a haphazard, illogical religion at best.

It also turns Christ into somewhat of a rube who just fell off the turn-up truck because He believed in all of the major events of the Old Testament, even saying that From the beginning God created male and female. You would think that the person who through all things were created would have been aware of evolution.

It also throws Peter under the bus because Paeter must have been a real mouth breather to write, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

It also makes one wonder where in the bible did God stop lying to us, if He even had anything to do with the formation of the bible. So as you can see theologically, evolution does a pretty mean broadside to the bible that ripples on down to the cross itself. Since the bible claims that through one man (Adam), sin entered the world, and through one man (Jesus), sin was defeated. But if men have been clubbing each other since Luci walked the earth, that becomes fiction, which renders the cross meaningless.

Biblically based Christian theology and macroevolution are binary choices under boolean logic rules.

 

[tonychanyt]

Since the bible claims that through one man (Adam), sin entered the world, and through one man (Jesus), sin was defeated.

Right, that happened in witnessed time.

But if men have been clubbing each other since Luci walked the earth

Right, that happened in space-time.

For their definitions, see How old is the earth? and follow up there.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Right, that happened in witnessed time.


Right, that happened in space-time.

For their definitions, see How old is the earth? and follow up there.

Where are these different times mentioned in the Bible?

 

[tonychanyt]

Where are these different times mentioned in the Bible?

Good question. Witnessed-time and space-time are my terminologies. They are not mentioned in the Bible and they do not contradict the Bible either in the First-Order Logical sense.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Good question. Witnessed-time and space-time are my terminologies. They are not mentioned in the Bible and they do not contradict the Bible either in the First-Order Logical sense.

Yes, I have heard this before but under a different title: “apparent age”

Look, I’ll be the first to admit that special creation has several difficult paradoxes with it from our limited understanding.

Witnessed-time and space-time add a number of new questions such as, what was the purpose of creating the illusion of age?

Now to be fair I to have often thought of unique theories to answer some of the paradoxes of special creation myself. The most prominent of these is possible reasons there are no fossil records of a vegetarian animals only.

I guess the bottom line is we don’t need to know and as long as we trust in Jesus Christ as our righteousness and adhere to Him we will be saved and someday enter the presence of God or we can ask him directly.

 

[tonychanyt]

Witnessed-time and space-time add a number of new questions such as, what was the purpose of creating the illusion of age?

It is not an illusion. Both frameworks of time are physically real.

Now to be fair I to have often thought of unique theories to answer some of the paradoxes of special creation myself. The most prominent of these is possible reasons there are no fossil records of a vegetarian animals only.

That matters not under my models. Science does not claim absolute truths. It is always open to revision with new evidence.

I guess the bottom line is we don’t need to know and as long as we trust in Jesus Christ as our righteousness and adhere to Him we will be saved and someday enter the presence of God or we can ask him directly.

Right.

I speculate out of curiosity to reconcile (vertical) biblical creation and (horizontal) science. They are two different perspectives.

 

[Mercy Shown]

It is not an illusion. Both frameworks of time are physically real.

So, let's go back to Jesus and the wine. Are you saying that the wine experienced a different timeline for itself than it did for the observers? (For the sake of this discussion we will ignore the fact that no matter how much we age water, it will not become wine)