Adam and Eve

[DontTreadOnMike]

I call that, denial by antithesis, and I use it almost exclusively here.

I'm sure it has its own term already, though -- somewhere.

Yeah it probably does but I have no idea what it is.

 

[AV1611VET]

Alright. I said I would respect that answer and I do. A lot. Thanks.

Before you go, I usually ask this question of those who "deconvert":

What made you, who at one time experienced the following:

Hebrews 6:4b ... tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

... turn your back on all of that?

(I may have asked you this before. I only remember asking Split Rock and Thaumaturgy.)

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Before you go, I usually ask this question of those who "deconvert":

What made you, who at one time experienced the following:

Hebrews 6:4b ... tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

... turn your back on all of that?

(I may have asked you this before. I only remember asking Split Rock and Thaumaturgy.)

Yeah you might have asked me. I can't remember. The thread where I "came out" was deleted.

I was just my own reasoning. As you can probably tell, I LOVE debating. It's how I exercise my brain muscles. I used to spend a lot of time debating against evolution a few years ago. I read a book by David Snoke called "A Biblical Case for an Old Earth" which, while I didn't agree with all of it, really opened my eyes. At that point I still didn't believe in evolution but I believed in the whole "day-age" thing. From there I just kept digging deeper into scientific literature. I figured if I was right, the science would back me up. But either way I would learn the truth.

So I went from thinking: "Wow! I don't have to be an evolutionist to believe in an old earth!" to thinking: "Wow! I don't have to be an atheist to believe in evolution!"

You can probably see where that trend was going.

Now I'm an agnostic. I make no positive claims about God either way. But personally, my hunch is that no god exists. That's the way I live my life, and that makes me an atheist. Surprisingly, my life hasn't changed much. My internal dialog in my head is different. I don't plead with God to help my make it to the gas station when my car starts sputtering. And I find myself in awe of the universe much more than I was before. I also value my time on earth much more than I used to. Momento Mori and all that. But besides all that stuff, I'm exactly the same person. I'm even still pro-life.

 

[Nostromo]

And you're right, negatives can't be proved.

Negatives can be proved. "I didn't fight in WWII" is fairly easy to prove, as I wasn't even born when WWII was underway.

What you two may be thinking of is proving a universal negative. Even then there are things, eg those things which are logically inconsistent, which appear to be easily provable.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't plead with God to help my make it to the gas station when my car starts sputtering. And I find myself in awe of the universe much more than I was before. I also value my time on earth much more than I used to.

That's quite a compromise -- awe of God for awe of the universe -- I'd say you got the raw end of the deal.

And what goes through your mind on days like Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas?

None of that JESUS IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON stuff anymore?

 

[AV1611VET]

Negatives can be proved. "I didn't fight in WWII" is fairly easy to prove, as I wasn't even born when WWII was underway.

What you two may be thinking of is proving a universal negative. Even then there are things, eg those things which are logically inconsistent, which appear to be easily provable.

Good point, Nostromo; thanks for the heads-up!

 

[Tiberius]

Cool -- it never happened, yet it was shown to be false.

I thought you guys boasted that you couldn't prove a negative?

I said that it is false to say that the events occured. As in, a creation story from a religion is false because the claims are false.

And I've never said that negatives are impossible to prove. One can prove there are no even prime numbers greater than two, for example.

No, I sure can't.

If I had to say something, I would say "common sense".

The trouble is that common sense is easily fooled.

Before you go, I usually ask this question of those who "deconvert":

What made you, who at one time experienced the following:

Hebrews 6:4b ... tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

... turn your back on all of that?

(I may have asked you this before. I only remember asking Split Rock and Thaumaturgy.)

If you don't mind me answering that as well, as I also deconverted...

I never experienced any of that. So I never did turn my back on it.

That's quite a compromise -- awe of God for awe of the universe -- I'd say you got the raw end of the deal.

And what goes through your mind on days like Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas?

None of that JESUS IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON stuff anymore?

Awe of the universe is the raw end of the deal? I feel very sorry for you if you can't see how awesome the universe is.

 

[AV1611VET]

Awe of the universe is the raw end of the deal?

Yes, compared to the awe of God, the awe of the universe pales; and anyone who trades the awe of God for the awe of the universe is going to get a raw deal.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

If an angel showed you the universe and said you cold have all that, or take what is behind Door #1,* and he read you that verse concerning what was behind that Door -- which would you take?

* John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

 

[Son of the King]

Yes, compared to the awe of God, the awe of the universe pales; and anyone who trades the awe of God for the awe of the universe is going to get a raw deal.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

If an angel showed you the universe and said you cold have all that, or take what is behind Door #1,* and he read you that verse concerning what was behind that Door -- which would you take?

* John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

I like this video. It gives you just a small idea of how BIG our God is.

The Awe Factor of God

 

[AV1611VET]

The Awe Factor of God

Totally awesome! Thank you for sharing that!

I love this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IKjgmIDeBU&feature=related

 

[Tiberius]

Yes, compared to the awe of God, the awe of the universe pales; and anyone who trades the awe of God for the awe of the universe is going to get a raw deal.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

If an angel showed you the universe and said you cold have all that, or take what is behind Door #1,* and he read you that verse concerning what was behind that Door -- which would you take?

* John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Oh, AV, when will you learn...?

If a unicorn came up to you and said that you could have the entire universe OR you could have the blessing that will be bestowed by the Invisible Pink unicorn (BBHHH), which would you choose?

Now, you quite happily dismiss the promises of a religion that you do not believe. That is why the blessings of the IPU hold no sway over you.

And that is why the promises of the Bible have no influence on me.

I have SEEN the wonders of the universe. These blessings from your god? All I have are words in an old book. I haven't seen anything to indicate that they are anything more than words.

And once again, you ignore the vast majority of my post. Typical of you to pick and choose, isn't it? You do it with the Bible, and you do it with my post.

I like this video. It gives you just a small idea of how BIG our God is.

The Awe Factor of God

I see nothing in there that can come only from God... In fact, I see no mention of God at all. Yes, the universe is big. But it's completely irrational and delusional to say, "The universe is really big, therefore God."

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh, AV, when will you learn...?

When you answer my question.

 

[shinbits]

But it's completely irrational and delusional to say, "The universe is really big, therefore God."

Why?

 

[Nostromo]

Why?

Because the conclusion does not follow from the premise in any way.

Much like if I said "I bought some waffles today, therefore it will be the President's birthday on Tuesday". In the parlance of logic it is a non sequitur.

 

[Son of the King]

Totally awesome! Thank you for sharing that!

I love this one:

YouTube - how big is Earth compare with other planets and stars?

Wow, that puts a few things in perspective. A few verses come to mind when veiwing this. All through the ages people are put in awe, even David when he says in Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
I cant help but think that we would have a long way from the last days had God made that last one (VY Canis Majoris) our temporary place of residence. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. We would have our work cut out for us especially if it was highly populated. As it is the Bible is translated into 98% of the worlds languages and dialects now.

 

[shinbits]

Because the conclusion does not follow from the premise in any way.

Much like if I said "I bought some waffles today, therefore it will be the President's birthday on Tuesday". In the parlance of logic it is a non sequitur.

Not so. Waffles can't factor in a way to the occurance of the president's birthday. However, a supernatural God can bring forth a universe.

 

[Nostromo]

Yes, but just because a supernatural God could bring forth a universe does not lead to the conclusion that it did.

Instead of the waffles, a better analogy might be "It is cloudy today, therefore it will rain".

 

[shinbits]

Yes, but just because a supernatural God could bring forth a universe does not lead to the conclusion that it did.

Instead of the waffles, a better analogy might be "It is cloudy today, therefore it will rain".

I see what you mean.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

That's quite a compromise -- awe of God for awe of the universe -- I'd say you got the raw end of the deal

Oh I don't think so. I experience that AWE sensation much more often now. Conversations with my teachers in Christian school generally went like this.

Me: "Wow! Look at that cosmic phenomenon! How does it work? How did it start? What caused it?"

Teacher: "Well Mike, God did it! IsN't tHAt aMaZiNg?!?!"

Me: "Oh. Yeah that's pretty cool I guess."

*Sense of mystery and curiosity about the universe: exit stage left*

Now I go to people who are actually trained in astronomy or astro-physics and who dedicate their lives to finding out the truth.

Me: "Wow! Look at that cosmic phenomenon! How does it work? How did it start? What caused it?"

Scientist: "Well Mike, here is how it works...."

Me: WoOOOOOOooOoOoOW! That's crazy! What caused it?"

Scientist: "We're not 100% sure yet but we're hot on the trail. Here's what we know so far...."

*Cue head explode. Stay up all night looking at the stars through my bedroom window.*


Not that I regret going to a Christian school. If I had to do it all over, I would go to all the same schools. I got a much better education in private Christian schools than I would have in California public schools; as evidenced by the fact that I can read and know how to do simple long division.

And what goes through your mind on days like Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas?

None of that JESUS IS THE REASON FOR THE SEASON stuff anymore?

Family!
Food!
Fireplace!
Snow! (<---just kidding...california)

Thanksgiving isn't really a Christian holiday though. The Pilgrims stopped at Plymouth rock because they ran out of booze. Then they nearly starved because they tried to run their settlement like a commune but no one worked. So they gave everyone a plot of land and told them they were responsible for feeding themselves and they actually had food that next winter.

Jesus may be the reason for Christmas but the reason that it takes place in that season is because all those pagans wouldn't give up their much more entertaining holidays (booze, hunting, giant bonfires, etc). Same with easter. That said, I don't really care that Christians "stole" those holidays because I don't believe in Woten or Eostre either.

 

[Tiberius]

When you answer my question.

AV, you don't get it. You might as well be asking me what I'd do if professor Dumbledore invited me to study at Hogwarts because I'm a wizard.

There are no angels. there is no God.

And even if something which appeared to be an angel did give me that alternative, it doesn't prove that what he is saying is correct.

I notice that you didn't answer my version of it...

If a unicorn came up to you and said that you could have the entire universe OR you could have the blessing that will be bestowed by the Invisible Pink unicorn (BBHHH), which would you choose?

Your answer to this question is (likely) to be my answer to yours.

That is, "The promises would not influence me because I believe that the religion involved is not true."

Does thast answer your question?

Now, when will you learn? Don't quote the Bible to someone who doesn't believe it, because it means nothing to them!