ACNA and the 39 Articles of Religon

[gurneyhalleck1]

How is ACNA not Anglican? You've affirmed it was in past posts but here you say it isn't Anglican...an evangelical group of schismatics? Seems inconsistent?

ACNA hasn't waffled. It has from day one decided to let each diocese of the church follow its conscience on WO. Waffling would imply there have been back-and-forth changes. I haven't seen that. But I do wish they'd ban WO once and for all. Will that happen? No way. I won't go into why....

What is "Anglican?" Does one have to be recognized by the Communion or the ABC to be Anglican? The "continuing" Anglicans of 30+ years ago never gave two hoots about what others see as their legitimacy. They severed ties with the ABC long ago for sound reasons....

I think ACNA is in big trouble and you're right in some ways. Some folks are leaving for Catholicism, a small amount for Orthodoxy, and many for non-denom churches. But they're not just leaving ACNA, they're leaving TEC. TEC's attendance numbers in proportion are far lower than ACNA's. ACNA has actually grown pretty well since 2008. They don't show signs of needing to hurry and ordain women to get new members.

It is good to see a stong Anglo-Catholic presence in ACNA.

Perhaps this would be more common if ACNA didn't continue to waffle regarding WO. It seems that either decision would draw more Anglo-Catholics. If there were no WO of priests and bishops, then many more RC's would move to ACNA. If WO was clearly accepted, then many more TEC members would move to ACNA. Finally if it were clear that there would always be both modes accepted within every diocese, perhaps with a separate assistant bishop, then that might draw from all groups.

The perception of many is that ACNA is a reaction to the high-handed actions of TEC and of its actions regarding ordination of active homosexuals. Obviously, these are related issues.

I guess I would more fully accept ACNA if it really showed that it was an Anglican Church, rather than a US evangelical Church in schism from TEC. I well understand that the conservative primates have supported the current mode of ACNA. I think a wider focus, actively including all four branches of the Communion would make much more sense,

 

[MKJ]

Perhaps by waffling he meant hasn't really confronted the issue in a meaningful way.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That's fine but that isn't what "waffling" means. LOL...

Perhaps by waffling he meant hasn't really confronted the issue in a meaningful way.

 

[mark46]

Yes, that is indeed the most important aspect of the issue.

Perhaps by waffling he meant hasn't really confronted the issue in a meaningful way.

 

[mark46]

Of course, ACNA is Anglican by definition. I was celebrating the information that, in the Dallas area, ACNA is more than a US evangelical church.

That is not what I am discussing. The issue I am raising is that the Anglican Tradition throughout the world is composed of four major branches or subtraditions: Anglo-Catholic, Evangelical, Charismatic and Progressive.

As you have pointed out many times, ACNA is becoming primarily an evangelical Church. Perhaps Trinity has started Eucharistic devotion when I wasn't looking?

Do you disagree? How important is liturgy and Eucharist? How important are charismatic gifts and healing? How important are nuances of scriptural interpretation? One poster her famously indicated that the evangelical branch of Anglicanism is the "S" in STR. Is this becoming true of ACNA?

There is nothing inherently wrong with an evangelical ACNA, and separate chruches that are Anglo-Catholic, Charismatic or progressive. However, this seems to be something different that having a Communiion.
=================================

Of course, ACNA has been growing since 2008, the year it was formed. Curiously, I am not concerned with comparing growth rates. TEC has ten times as many members as ACNA. It is in full communion with several other US chuches. It will survive and find its niche.

The question is the future of ACNA. As you have suggested in the past, it is not at all clear that ACNA will thrive long-term. Have I misunderstood your position?
================================

Is the position of ACNA on WO really that clear? So the issue has no theological importance and practice is simply the choice of the local bishop? Does ACNA have any issues that it considers critical other than taking the correct position on homosexuality?

How is ACNA not Anglican? You've affirmed it was in past posts but here you say it isn't Anglican...an evangelical group of schismatics? Seems inconsistent?

ACNA hasn't waffled. It has from day one decided to let each diocese of the church follow its conscience on WO. Waffling would imply there have been back-and-forth changes. I haven't seen that. But I do wish they'd ban WO once and for all. Will that happen? No way. I won't go into why....

What is "Anglican?" Does one have to be recognized by the Communion or the ABC to be Anglican? The "continuing" Anglicans of 30+ years ago never gave two hoots about what others see as their legitimacy. They severed ties with the ABC long ago for sound reasons....

I think ACNA is in big trouble and you're right in some ways. Some folks are leaving for Catholicism, a small amount for Orthodoxy, and many for non-denom churches. But they're not just leaving ACNA, they're leaving TEC. TEC's attendance numbers in proportion are far lower than ACNA's. ACNA has actually grown pretty well since 2008. They don't show signs of needing to hurry and ordain women to get new members.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I never claimed you misunderstood my position, Mark. I also never said there was anything "wrong" with evangelicalism. Personally, I'm not a fan of it though, not by a longshot.

Is WO really up to the local diocese? Yes. Bishop Schofield and Bishop Iker are two bishops who had an "over my dead body" philosophy in ACNA. That was respected. ++Duncan had the opposite belief. He was allowed that position and respected by Schofield and Iker. From place to place, each part of the new province is allowed to choose. There is no ONE position. You knew that, right? From its inception, ACNA decided to not decide it. They knew that TEC was so heterodox and, in their opinion, dangerous, that they needed to lay aside things like WO for the bigger issues and find unity to leave TEC. Do I think WO needs to be decided? You bet. And I hope (to no avail) that they decide to forbid it completely. If they lose some members as a result, so be it. Orthodoxy and truth trump popularity and $$$. But I don't think that's the endgame. Sooner or later it's an inevitability, sadly. And that's why folks like me see the writing on the wall and are prayerfully asking God to guide us elsewhere most likely.

Your comment about Trinity and Eucharistic Adoration went over my head, Mark. Not sure what you're meaning?

I think you know full well that homosexuality is not the only issue that formed ACNA....so I'm not taking the bait there.

Of course, ACNA is Anglican by definition. I was celebrating the information that, in the Dallas area, ACNA is more than a US evangelical church.

That is not what I am discussing. The issue I am raising is that the Anglican Tradition throughout the world is composed of four major branches or subtraditions: Anglo-Catholic, Evangelical, Charismatic and Progressive.

As you have pointed out many times, ACNA is becoming primarily an evangelical Church. Perhaps Trinity has started Eucharistic devotion when I wasn't looking?

Do you disagree? How important is liturgy and Eucharist? How important are charismatic gifts and healing? How important are nuances of scriptural interpretation? One poster her famously indicated that the evangelical branch of Anglicanism is the "S" in STR. Is this becoming true of ACNA?

There is nothing inherently wrong with an evangelical ACNA, and separate chruches that are Anglo-Catholic, Charismatic or progressive. However, this seems to be something different that having a Communiion.
=================================

Of course, ACNA has been growing since 2008, the year it was formed. Curiously, I am not concerned with comparing growth rates. TEC has ten times as many members as ACNA. It is in full communion with several other US chuches. It will survive and find its niche.

The question is the future of ACNA. As you have suggested in the past, it is not at all clear that ACNA will thrive long-term. Have I misunderstood your position?
================================

Is the position of ACNA on WO really that clear? So the issue has no theological importance and practice is simply the choice of the local bishop? Does ACNA have any issues that it considers critical other than taking the correct position on homosexuality?

 

[mark46]

Trinity is the primary seminary for ACNA folks. It is very evangelical. Eucharistic adoration would be out of place for most folks there.

Nashotah House is conservative Anglo-Catholic (with WO), albeit small.

With regard to WO, once there is resolution with regard to TEC, then ACNA will determine whether it makes sense to have the two modes regarding WO within their midst. After all, it is difficult to support an ACNA seminary if half of ACNA believes that women shouldn't be ordained.

At the moment, I see ACNA as a group of Anglican protesters/reformers. That's fine. That is our heritage. That is the Tradition from which we came. In the end, we will see whether ACNA members move to other churches and whether ACNA split up inot separate churches. It is already happening, while at the same time there is growth in total numbers.

I never claimed you misunderstood my position, Mark. I also never said there was anything "wrong" with evangelicalism. Personally, I'm not a fan of it though, not by a longshot.

Is WO really up to the local diocese? Yes. Bishop Schofield and Bishop Iker are two bishops who had an "over my dead body" philosophy in ACNA. That was respected. ++Duncan had the opposite belief. He was allowed that position and respected by Schofield and Iker. From place to place, each part of the new province is allowed to choose. There is no ONE position. You knew that, right? From its inception, ACNA decided to not decide it. They knew that TEC was so heterodox and, in their opinion, dangerous, that they needed to lay aside things like WO for the bigger issues and find unity to leave TEC. Do I think WO needs to be decided? You bet. And I hope (to no avail) that they decide to forbid it completely. If they lose some members as a result, so be it. Orthodoxy and truth trump popularity and $$$. But I don't think that's the endgame. Sooner or later it's an inevitability, sadly. And that's why folks like me see the writing on the wall and are prayerfully asking God to guide us elsewhere most likely.

Your comment about Trinity and Eucharistic Adoration went over my head, Mark. Not sure what you're meaning?

I think you know full well that homosexuality is not the only issue that formed ACNA....so I'm not taking the bait there.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I'm not so sure ACNA members would agree. ACNA Anglicans see the situation not as they being those who left, but in reality TEC left them long ago. They may have had to move apart legally and physically but really it was TEC who left them in the dust with its innovative, modernist agenda, from their point of view. I agree with you about WO that the position of ACNA is silly. They took a strong stance on abortion. Great! They took a strong stance on homosexuality. Super! They took a more cautious look at divorce requiring bishops to approve remarriages, etc. at least so that's a positive step. But with WO they really dropped the ball. They had the chance to eliminate it once and for all but instead they kept it alive in what I believe is just pandering. It's unfortunate. Folks like me, the "dinosaurs" who aren't hip to this innovation, who feel it is a serious break with history, people who value ecumenism with the Orthodox and Catholics who really see the Anglican Church as part of the OHCAC, we're a dying breed...and possibly soon a breed transferred to another communion... While my bishop and my rector are opposed to this, it drives me nuts that a seminary like Nashotah claims to be Anglo-Catholic and orthodox and yet allow WO. I find it unbelievable and can't stomach it.

Trinity is the primary seminary for ACNA folks. It is very evangelical. Eucharistic adoration would be out of place for most folks there.

Nashotah House is conservative Anglo-Catholic (with WO), albeit small.

With regard to WO, once there is resolution with regard to TEC, then ACNA will determine whether it makes sense to have the two modes regarding WO within their midst. After all, it is difficult to support an ACNA seminary if half of ACNA believes that women shouldn't be ordained.

At the moment, I see ACNA as a group of Anglican protesters/reformers. That's fine. That is our heritage. That is the Tradition from which we came. In the end, we will see whether ACNA members move to other churches and whether ACNA split up inot separate churches. It is already happening, while at the same time there is growth in total numbers.